Abraham - true prophet of God or something else??

IF IF IF Abraham (of Old Testament Fame) actually existed and that the biblical accounts of his life are recorded accurately from his point of view, there are some questions that need to be asked. My questions - Was Abraham suffering from mental illness? If so/not .. what does that mean to the religions of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims?? Have the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions candy coated over the fact that one of their big patriarchs could easily have been suffering from a mental illness that caused him to be violent and delusional?? Or is what they say true .. that God was 'testing' Abraham and so he really was a major power player in the plan of God? What do you think?

If he wasn’t mentally ill, what does the story of Abraham tell us about God?

If Abraham was mentally ill, what does that do to the Muslim, Jewish and Christian faiths which hold Abraham up as a prophet of God in their respective religions??

Genesis 22 – “God” tells Abraham to plot to kill his own son. Abraham was going to burn him alive and slit his throat as an offering. He planned the murder and deceived his own son to go on an outing with him in order to lure him to the murder spot. Then, at the last minute, “God” told Abraham not to kill the boy.

Was this a case of dementia suffered by an old man who lead a ‘religious’ life?

Hallucinations and by a religious man with mental health issues?

Insanity and hallucinations due to radiation sickness from the Sodom and Gomorrah ‘brimstone and fire’ that Abraham had just recently witnessed?

Just another murderer wrapped in the cloak of religion?

Genesis 15:12 talks about a ‘dread and great darkness’ falling upon Abraham. Perhaps he had clinical depression of some kind? Paranoia? That coupled with delusions can make someone rather dangerous ...

Genesis 17 is kinda odd .. that whole circumcision thing gets started. I find it rather strange that a God would want human genitalia to get cut up as a sign of his ‘covenant’ with people. But God works in mysterious ways so … who knows??

Was God really testing Abraham?
Was Abraham suffering from a mental health issue?
Was the story just not true, or changed through the thousands of years?

At any rate, if I was Abrahams wife and my son came home after an outing with daddy-dearest and told me the ‘sacrifice story’ .. I’d sure as heck make sure that my child got no where near daddy ever again.

i think the story, if taken at face value, was to show if man's ties to family are stronger than his ties to god.
since abram choose to listen to the words of a ram and not go thru with what he was commanded to do, it would show that man will look to ? any sign he may find to justify doing his own will.

that being said, sometimse i think whoever wrote the OT was suffering from mental illness .

Hi FF
sandf for interesting
a brahman?
ever since I found out that the hieroglyphics of the day refere to Menes ( Zargon's son, who's scion, the progenitor of the line was also refered to as Odin) the unifier of upper and lower egypt around 3700 BC ( as above so below) as "our Lord Ah Men", and "Manitutu", I have serious doubts about not just christianity and its charachters, but about most cargo cult religions which have their linguistic roots in that particular royal dynasty.

The glyphs are from sumeria egypt and india, and taken together they tell a very interesting tale
since my info is from books I would suggest serious perusal of anything by LA Waddel
en.wikipedia.org...

eta
PS
even the word GOD is from the word gut or Goth which Zargon and his line were goths-Aryans the first codifiers in stone of the basic laws we live by..handed down from a ziggurat no less

My opinion is he was either mentally ill at the time or the whole thing is just an allegory to a bigger truth. The guys who put the OT together loved using allegory to cover up the true story, so who knows?

Considering how Abraham tied into many other situations and people, they would have all had to have been delusional for this to make any sense. There are other ancient texts besides the Bible that mention Abraham, although usually a different name is used because the language is different.

There is much that could be said about this story from a Christian perspective, but I'll stick with just one aspect.
Genesis 22:8

8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

Among the fundamentalists, it is often taught that Abraham believed God would either provide an alternative sacrifice(Hence the above statement), or raise his son from the dead(His belief in Gods original promise). So he was willing to do as he believed God told him, because he believed God would make it right either way.

Without Abraham, mankind would long ceased to exist.

If Abraham was mad, then the rest of mankind would have gone demonic, for all kinds of horrors were praticed upon the masses. Historical records had written of atrocities committed thousands of years ago, archeology and anthropology research confirms it.

Our common Creator is merciful being, and had spared many except for the worse - sinful cities such Sodom and Gomorrah. Today, much of those lands are still wastelands that it had became, a testimony of the act of mercy upon the humans there by Him, for their cries in the hands of their leaders were pitiful, and it ended for them quick and painless.

The patriach Abraham was tested, to find how true to our Creator he will be, for he was given free will like all other human beings, to chose the rightful path to progress and evolve, or to wipe ourselves out in the grand experiment to create beings in the likeness of our Creator.

Abraham was a wise and just man, proven as in the hebrew chronicles. But he had no son. By our Creator's gift, he finally had a son, and like any human - old or young, would treasure him above him. But Abrahams was earmarked for something more - the leader of the race of beings that our Creator intended for, and He had to know how far he can be trusted before given this destiny.

Abraham proved worthy, who was willing to follow His path, and thus through him by the grace of our Creator, we exists.

It was an ancient time, and an ancient barbaric world, an environment that we this generation know little about except what had been written and analysed. Thus it would be a mistake to make judgement BASED upon our own progressive environment over the lives of our ancestors, to deem them mentally deficient or irrational, although we this generation stil do at times label our elders as out of touch or mentally ill when they disagree with us.

They lived in a far more brutal time than ours and react to their environment as they are taught or rationalized to, unlike us this generation whom have the luxury and peace to contemplate the mind with a wide array of thinkers, doers and philosophers' works from since the dawn of civilisation to today.

Circumcision helps in personal hygiene, and hygiene is of critical importance, more so on the human part whereby the next human generations are created.

Today, we may view circumcision with disdain. But in the ancient world, hygiene and medical care was not readily avaliable, nor were our ancestors capable of absorbing such knowledge even if forcefed, as science and knowledge need to be built upon for a strong foundation to progress and evolve.

I know that I will not be able to convince those whom had turn away from religion, or have yet to know our Creator, for each do have the gift of free will. All that I can hope for is that those who seek to know more, be less confrontational, be open, share, discuss and find out more through cross referencing subject matters to gain better knowledge.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Thank you for this brilliant post , well..! I have not much knowledge about the story of Abraham and his son's sacrifice in holy Bible , even though my love and full respect will always be with it. in religious perspective I'm a Muslim and it's a must to respect all the holy books and all the prophets . likewise i also had this concern for days. so as I was going through the Quran I found a clue that God never said to slay his son, but Abraham . he himself had a dream, and he thought God has said to slay his son , and he misjudged and tried to kill his son at that moment God has said '' you have believed and trusted your dream '' that is how Quran mentions that... see! ..( 37 :105) '' You have fulfilled the dream!"

www.searchtruth.com...

Then we have that woman from texas who was on SSRI drugs who said god told her to kill her (5, I think) children

Not to mention all the soldiers and wrasslers et all who have suffered from head trauma who have slaughtered their families

reply to post by FlyersFan
All we need to do is apply the same standards to Biblegod as we do to everyone else, and he would be judged and condemned to the same fate that he threatens everyone else with. It's all right out there in the open, the Old Testament in no way tries to hide what "God" is. It plainly states to "fear" him. I don't know about anyone else, but I cannot possibly love someone I fear. It's just amazing how the masses of all three Abrahamic religions fervently worship this clown who is clearly Satan.

re refering to the bible as fack in a debate:


Since the hyroglyphs of the reeds and basket and the story of the son being found in the reeds and being adopted ( a virgin birth so to speak), are written in stone several thousand years before the first mention of the judaic stories which clearly refer to Zargon, I would think refering to the bible, a clearly plagerized document should be considered dubious at best

just sayin

reply to post by Danbones


What I was wondering .... the story about Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed happens soon before Abraham planning a murder attempt on his innocent child. I'm wondering about radiation poisoning and/or PTSD from observing 'God' destroy two cities in such a manner.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Without Abraham, mankind would long ceased to exist.

You do know the world does not revolve around Abrahamic faiths right? there are others religions, which are older.

Circumcision helps in personal hygiene, and hygiene is of critical importance, more so on the human part whereby the next human generations are created.

Its nothing but religion tradition turned culture... 80% of the world is uncircumsized...it has nothing to do with hygiene, if you born with it you will take care of it, it will be part of you body from the start. Just like washing behind you ears.

There is no "extra work" to do if you had it from when you are a child.


Rest of you passage is mainly talking about Abrahamic faith, i disagree with all of them, so i will not respond and derail.

I know of your opinions of the Islamic scriptures , but since you specifically asked for muslim input, I figured it'd be pertinent to tell you one major difference in the story insofar as the islamic scriptures go:
Muslims believe that both Abraham and Ishmael (two major differences, then, I guess) were aware of God's command, so it wasn't Abraham deceiving his son, but Ishmael sacrificing himself, and Abraham sacrificing his son.

I suppose on the whole it doesn't really reduce what could perhaps be called the "disturbingness" of the story all that much, but it is a significant difference.

reply to post by FlyersFan


well FF these stories seem to often have some source, regardless of apparent bible validity, so I think the question is very interesting...the whole story touches on some key issues...god, killing children, storytelling,
a merry chase on a winters day

reply to post by FlyersFan


I definitely think we could easily question the sanity of the Prophet's of God. Indeed, according to our current society and what is "defined" as mental illness, today perhaps all of them or most of them would surely be locked up or drooling somewhere on meds. Ezekiel is one I've always wondered about But Prophet's of old we just don't have today anymore, we were foretold this time would come, and now all we have are their words and legacy and the faith and free-will to choose to believe they were indeed what they stated they were, or were they just some loonies lying to themselves and ultimately deceiving us.

I love them all, God bless their souls and their courage to step out of the realm of the "norm" even in their day and age and willingly submit to God's every whelm not caring what the "people" thought of them and delivering the messages we have with us today-at all and any costs! God Bless the Prophet's and God rest their soul. I love Daniel and I hope to be in heaven somewhere near where he is one day.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Without Abraham, mankind would long ceased to exist. If Abraham was mad, then the rest of mankind would have gone demonic, for all kinds of horrors were praticed upon the masses. Historical records had written of atrocities committed thousands of years ago, archeology and anthropology research confirms it.

Not even close! Abraham was a Semitic from Ur, a Sumerian city, and he was not the only one. I guarantee you that mankind would still exist if Abraham had not father his one son, Isaac!

As far as historical atrocities, I suppose that you're referring to human sacrifice, of which the Hebrews also partook, killing for Yahweh, but keeping the virgins daughters of those evil, filthy people for themselves.

It was an ancient time, and an ancient barbaric world, an environment that we this generation know little about except what had been written and analysed. Thus it would be a mistake to make judgement BASED upon our own progressive environment over the lives of our ancestors, to deem them mentally deficient or irrational, although we this generation stil do at times label our elders as out of touch or mentally ill when they disagree with us.

They lived in a far more brutal time than ours and react to their environment as they are taught or rationalized to, unlike us this generation whom have the luxury and peace to contemplate the mind with a wide array of thinkers, doers and philosophers' works from since the dawn of civilization to today.

So basically what you're saying here is that God had to compromise his morality and the morality he imparted on his people in order to accommodate the bad behavior of their contemporaries. Is that why God ordered Abraham to kill his son, to harden him to the outside world?

Circumcision helps in personal hygiene, and hygiene is of critical importance, more so on the human part whereby the next human generations are created.

So, why did God create men with a foreskin that need to be physically cut off in order to maintain cleanliness? Was his creation flawed? How come other cultures, that didn't circumcise their young males, managed to thrive?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by Danbones

 

What I was wondering .... the story about Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed happens soon before Abraham planning a murder attempt on his innocent child. I'm wondering about radiation poisoning and/or PTSD from observing 'God' destroy two cities in such a manner.

Indeed! But, even without the inference to a nuclear action, there is tons of evidence of volcanic activity in the area during the time that Abraham supposedly lived. Toxic volcanic gasses were erupting from vents all over the place and a lot of the biblical descriptions of Yahweh can be compared to volcanic activity.

Abraham could have suffered from mercury poisoning, sulphuric acid poisoning, or just some bad mushrooms or rye bread!

reply to post by FlyersFan

Then, at the last minute, “God” told Abraham not to kill the boy.

Technically as the story goes... an angel stopped him from killing his son... Not this God

I don't think there was anything wrong with Abraham, he was only following what his God wanted him to do...

Just more evidence this isn't the true Father of creation in my humble opinion

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Then, at the last minute, “God” told Abraham not to kill the boy.

Technically as the story goes... an angel stopped him from killing his son... Not this God

Right!

Here's a lighthearted and funny video illustrating that very point.

reply to post by windword


I would have liked to respond you on a point by point rebuttal, but it will serve no purpose, for you hold your ignorances dearly. I have no wish to pull you away from your comfort zone but hope one day you will take the time to study theology, archeology and anthropology seriously and carefully, to comprehend, and NOT just read.

As for another who claimed to not want to respond and yet did, I myself have no wish to dispel his ignorances and continued judgement of our uneducated ancestors based upon our modern progessive and medical advancements.

In ancient times, was he aware of how low the infant mortality rate was? I doubt so, as the current amazing figures blinds him to the facts of during that in ancient times. It wasnt so during the times of our ancestors.

The Hebrew chronicles is the only reliable source that mankind had depended on for centuries. Today, we realized that they may be older civilisations, but then again, in Genesis, it had already been mentioned, proving the ancient book had not been a lie. So, which civilisation that exist today is older, based upon written analyzed records and not stones of imagination and speculation?

Ultimately, none of today's generation had live in the past or witnessed the events unfolding, to be speaking the truth but only limited comprehensions and speculations. HOWEVER, the fact remains - something DID happened thousands of years ago and caused our progress and evolution, far away from our closest cousins - the monkey.

It is called intelligent human design and religion - a set of moral and ethical guidelines that created our civilisation, to co-exist in peace with common goals, to progress and evolve. While we mankind controlled robots on Mars, our cousin monkey could not even build a hut to protect itself from nature's environments.

It is perfectly ok to pass one liners ignorant comments here on ATS, for ATS makes no pretentions of being an academic site. However, it is hope that contributors may flesh out their points of views more, not one line simple ignorant rebuttals, so that we may all not waste the time reading it and if done right, we could learn more from each other.