UK Finally Promised Referendum on EU

Originally posted by HelenConway

Originally posted by tdk84

Originally posted by HelenConway

Originally posted by tdk84

Originally posted by HelenConway
I mean why does Brussels want political and financial control of the whole lot ? I have never understood this, without coming up with a very sinister answer.

I've explained this, the reason why the want more control is to force fiscal policies and fix the economic mess. Its not fact though just the opinion of the German chancellor as a way to resolve the issues.

They want to stop expansion built from more debt, force fiscal control.

It wont happen though as no one wants to give up national power, everyone is objecting, France, UK and even the Germans themselves.

Were not the only country that has been moaning about these issues, they will be resolved.

edit on 24-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

We give up this - we surrender our whole country, which we have done by default anyway actually.
I am just puzzled why you appear to support Merkel ?

I don't support, just educating you to why. Her idea is sound though, you can see the logic but who wants to give up national powers... no one.

.

edit on 24-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

Thanks for educating me - I actually read alot about this subject from many many sources, which is why I am so anti EU in its current form. Thanks for your feedback anyway.

To quote myself below I find the German-Franco relations recently very interesting, definitely a big chance for us.

Its mainly to do with François Hollande the new Socialist President, he's very different to Nicolas Sarkozy, although its been going on a long time.

Basically without boring you, Francious hollande has a growth agenda... like labour did. They theory of spending money to get the economy going again.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel wants fiscal restraint, hence the now natural alliance that could be made with the Torries, very similar models. They dont want growth financed by more debt.

Mr Hollande did a few other things like lowering the retirement age, blunders in speeches, he elected Jean-Marc Ayrault, a longtime ally and Germanophile prime minister, deep differences on how to resolve the euro crisis.

Basically its the Germans who want to surrender national powers to tighten fiscal discipline's. The French dont like this as much as the British.

Hollande suggested Merkel is preoccupied with domestic politics.

It was stated the Franco-German relationship was the driving and "accelerating" force of the EU, Hollande said, "it can also be the brake if it's not in step."

This is just a short list, but basically the Germans are finding a lot more in common with the way Britian is run then France. They have stated Anglo-German relations are far more natural, mainly because the two strongest economic powers in the E.U agree on so many things... other then the national powers that is, to be negotiated.

reply to post by tdk84

For what it's worth, I agree that Anglo-German relations feel more natural than our relations with the French and I think many Germans consider themselves Anglophiles.
Even my great-granddad had high respect for the Brits and he considered England his sworn enemy.

I always doubted this stance could ever be mutual though, mainly because of all the bloodshed in our past.

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by tdk84

 

For what it's worth, I agree that Anglo-German relations feel more natural than our relations with the French and I think many Germans consider themselves Anglophiles.
Even my great-granddad had high respect for the Brits and he considered England his sworn enemy.

I always doubted this stance could ever be mutual though, mainly because of our past.

The Germans and Britons were always friends and allies before our leaders led us into the disastrous WW1 - and we all know what happened after that !

I found this quote on another forum hit the nail on the head regarding the matter of referendum.

The problem I see is that all I know of the EU is what the media has told me - and I know that goes for everybody else I know, without any exceptions. None of us have the full story, not even part of it, no one even, I venture to say, on this forum, so when we, the people, finally, have a referendum (that is, if we, ever, do) we will all be voting with our ideas and prejudices formed by others who have their dubious motives, which will, I have no doubt, include a great deal of greed of one sort or another.

I'm a Yank, but find this whole thing fascinating. I took a class on the EU in college and felt from the beginning the Brits would be getting the shaft. Good for you though for not accepting the Euro!

An another note, it's too bad our countries had our little spat a couple hundred years back. I wonder how things would be now had that whole "revolution" not taken place. I'm not trying to be anti-American, just wondering. I have also wondered about how a revival of the Commonwealth could work now days. I mean, the world is obviously heading toward a global currency and such, so why don't we beat them to the punch and revive what we used to have?

reply to post by chrome413


The commonwealth is an interesting area... Mozambique joined recently (2009), the first country with no history to the Commonwealth, so there's obvious application for expansion.

I want out, I never wanted in but then we never had a choice on this and I still doubt we will get a true chance to decide.
The problem with keeping a trade agreement is that we would still have EU regulations, we need to be in control of our farming and fishing, it's crazy to not control our basic food supplies.

@ Talliostro
I can't make you believe that the EU is a stepping stone to the NWO but it was splashed all over the news in the UK when Bush and Blair said it "A New World Order is emerging". But still we are fear mongering, you won't be saying that when we have the one world government, bank, police and armed forces. This is why they keep saying it's important the EU and the Euro don't fail.

I have nothing but respect and adoration for the German people, truly I do, not so much the French, but that's life. However, I have to say, since the formation of the EEC and then various treaties that have been forced through since, it has done nothing for the British people. More and more of our powers were gradually past over to Brussels and it became clear years ago as to the true nature of the coming together of European powers. It was the agenda of forming a single Euro state, without borders, a single entity devoid of individual identities and that is what they have tried to force upon us since day one. Through propaganda, through brain washing, through countless legislation aimed at countering any such resistance to the single state concept.

In exchange for the cooperation of corrupt politicians, Brussels made sure that all were handsomely rewarded with jobs within the EC's countless bureaucratic positions. I think the final straw for me was when the Lisbon Treaty was being forced through and voters basically made to vote until they voted yes. It was a disgusting display of tyranny and really showed what the Euro Godfathers were made of, if anyone had any doubt.

The one good thing that come out of this and the only thing I would say well done to Labour for, was that they never did surrender the pound for the Euro. However, they did surrender pretty much everything else and when it is all too clear that we are simply bailing out nations who can't afford to stand on their own feet, then it shows that we have no common ground with such nations.

I would be all for a Northern European Market, the nations are much more stable and balanced, even though France is really looking vulnerable at the moment. However, the many eastern block and definitely the southern countries are just a drain and actually put relatively nothing in compared to what they have taken out.

The one thing that the Euro Mafia never thought of was that actually, the many European countries are not like the many American states. They are vastly different in terms of what economically works for them, this is what was underestimated, or not, by the French and German. Setting interest rates that worked for them, productive nations, especially Germany, an industrial powerhouse, will not work for Greece and the like who sit there pay no tax and sell figs all day.

For the UK, if pulling out means a return of all our powers and a closure of borders then yeah I'm for it totally. This country is in a mess and needs to shut up shop in order to clean it up and get it in order. The Commonwealth and America, along with emerging Asian markets can more than sustain the UK and I honestly feel that Europe needs the UK, more than the UK needs Europe, even in this sorry state.

The only people that are for the UK staying in Europe, are those that benefit from its bureaucracy and destructive policies. The company bosses who can employ a cheap work force, the immigrants who are in here that can claim benefits galore and the politicians who are looking to for a career in Brussels once they are kicked out. Nobody that I have spoken to or know, can see any real positive in staying within this mess. We survived before without it and we can survive now without it.

The one country I feel sorry for is Germany, get your gold back, get your deutschmark in order and get the hell out of it. The German people deserve better than having to bail out this shower of incompetence!

I just don't think we're ready to get out. We should have done what a lot of countries do when it comes to EU law: Agree to it, vote for it then run home and rewrite soveriegn law before the EU law comes into effect to avoid having to comply with EU law. Remember: Soveriegn law takes precedence over EU law a lot of the time.

Our politicians decided Britain was going to be a good EU citizen (so to speak) and did the EU thing, pretty much every time it was called upon to do so. Meanwhile a lot of the time the majority of other EU states ducked out of their moral responsibility to do the EU thing by rewriting their sovereign law.

We tried to be a part of this EU thing and got shafted on most fronts by our 'friends'.

Now we want out and we're not self reliant enough to do it, so we're trying to get a better deal and they know they've got us by the short and curlies.

The saddest thing about this whole thread is people arguing for and against the politics, when are people going to realize that everything is planned behind closed doors, away from the public's eyes. Election promises are a joke, tell me one election manifesto in the last 50 years that was actually kept? You are told what sounds good and you all vote on it, but what they say at election time has absolutely nothing to do with what will happen.

Whether we are to leave or stay in the EU is already decided, the Rothschilds have already chewed through that bone and spit it out.

It is pointless arguing over it, because by doing so you are doing exactly what they want, divide and conquer, get people fighting amongst themselves and they will ignore what is really going on around them, they have you hating your life and looking around at anyone seeking to blame them, he black it's his fault, or should I blame the gay over there, no its the French, the Germans fault, hell it's my neighbor's fault if he was gone my life would be better.

Its easy to look at the EU and blame all this hardship on Poles and Latvians etc. coming here to work, but it is not their fault, the blame lies squarely with the BANKERS and the POLITICIANS, remember all the corruption? See how easily your mind is distracted and you are looking to lay the blame elsewhere

STOP and THINK, this is all just window dressing, stop fighting each other and fight the real enemy, those that control and are manipulating you

We're discussing a hypothetical scenario here, and as free thinkers we have the ability to do so.

That's why we're on ATS. If we don't want to discuss these things we wouldn't have ever signed up to ATS.

We pretty much know (as a population now) that things are planned, as best they can, behind closed doors by people we didn't even elect, but I don't think it's sad to discuss the politics. What if things changed, but nobody had discussed politics for a gen. or two. We wouldn't be well equipped to sort ourselves out would we? And the less we discuss politics the more power we would silently be handing to TPTB....surely.

Ignorance is their friend, not ours. Knowledge, however is power. Especially to the individual. They fear the growing awareness of their populations.

Originally posted by PrinceDreamer
Its easy to look at the EU and blame all this hardship on Poles and Latvians etc. coming here to work, but it is not their fault, the blame lies squarely with the BANKERS and the POLITICIANS, remember all the corruption? See how easily your mind is distracted and you are looking to lay the blame elsewhere

STOP and THINK, this is all just window dressing, stop fighting each other and fight the real enemy, those that control and are manipulating you

Oh I really think people realise this..

In election 2015 I will only vote for political parties that support this referendum. Currently I give it to the Conservatives about as reluctantly as they give us this referendum opportunity. But the EU is too important. There are almost no economic differences between Labour and Conservative. Labour likes to criticize a lot, but rarely puts forward alternative ideas because they would not be doing a lot differently.

Miliband & Clegg are against giving the UK people a choice, because they know that during a recession this club we pay into more than we get out, and have very little control over when it comes to dictating our laws and overturning our judges decisions will not receive majority support (especially during a recession).

David Cameron is becoming a reluctant hero, and he's only doing it because an increasing number of the public had the balls to vote UKIP
Just goes to show how your vote can be more effective when people vote for a minor party, than a big one.

reply to post by Liberal1984


I wouldn't trust any of them, none of them want out. Even if Cameron is still PM after the next election and we get the referendum, there's no guarantee that he will bring us out if we vote to come out.

Do you remember all the voting fraud at the last election? It was a disgrace, even countries who are known for having bogus elections were shocked at how bad it was.

Originally posted by LEL01
@ Talliostro
I can't make you believe that the EU is a stepping stone to the NWO but it was splashed all over the news in the UK when Bush and Blair said it "A New World Order is emerging". But still we are fear mongering, you won't be saying that when we have the one world government, bank, police and armed forces. This is why they keep saying it's important the EU and the Euro don't fail.

I don't believe in this NWO conspiracies, because it's way too complicated. Why even bother to install all this surveillance, monitoring and control things, getting emergency plans in place etc, when you could get into "your" hideout with your cronies and the important people, release a 100% deadly virus (like the black plague was) in Shanghai, London and New York and then wait für 2-5 years. If I would plan this, I wouldn't even nuke the place because that would really make a mess out of the environment I want to live in. Just get a 100% Death rate among the human people with a bio-engineered weapon not in safe places and wait.
After that, recolonize the earth and be happy.
Just as a sidenote, this topic isn't about the NWO, so that's all I will say about this.

Originally posted by HelenConway

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by michael1983l

 

This should be a cold, calculated decision rather than one based on emotion and feelings about Europe though - don't you agree? And that is my very real fear.

Simply put, in economic terms alone, we are far better off with Europe than without Europe. My personal favourite, as i have said many times on here, would be a rejigged EU, based on Northern Power (Britain, Germany, Scandinavian / Baltic States). Only France if they start pulling their weight.

However, that is pie in the sky thinking. Why would Europe allow itself to be dictated to by Britain? Us leaving Europe hurts Europe a lot. Europe leaving us though hurts us an awful lot more, in terms of economics, defence, etc. It rankles but the world is a changing and we are simply far too small to go it alone.

Not true . Australia and Switzerland and Canada are smaller and they are rich free nations. Don;t believe the brain washers. We have been a free nation for 100o years in our present form and you think that because of the past 15 years we should now give up our country. Wake up !!!

Australia is smaller? Australia is massively mineral rich and that will support its economy for decades. Geographically it is huge.... can't understand your point there at all - sorry

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by HelenConway

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by michael1983l

 

This should be a cold, calculated decision rather than one based on emotion and feelings about Europe though - don't you agree? And that is my very real fear.

Simply put, in economic terms alone, we are far better off with Europe than without Europe. My personal favourite, as i have said many times on here, would be a rejigged EU, based on Northern Power (Britain, Germany, Scandinavian / Baltic States). Only France if they start pulling their weight.

However, that is pie in the sky thinking. Why would Europe allow itself to be dictated to by Britain? Us leaving Europe hurts Europe a lot. Europe leaving us though hurts us an awful lot more, in terms of economics, defence, etc. It rankles but the world is a changing and we are simply far too small to go it alone.

Not true . Australia and Switzerland and Canada are smaller and they are rich free nations. Don;t believe the brain washers. We have been a free nation for 100o years in our present form and you think that because of the past 15 years we should now give up our country. Wake up !!!

Australia is smaller? Australia is massively mineral rich and that will support its economy for decades. Geographically it is huge.... can't understand your point there at all - sorry

Australia has a much smaller population than Britain though. And so does Canada as well for that matter.

reply to post by Gazmeister


Exactly, much smaller populations but much much greater living space and mineral resources. In other words, totally incomparable to Britain through that means alone.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by SprocketUK

 

Which is exactly why we all need to vote UKIP at the next election.

Why? UKIP are a one trick pony. Sometimes - quite often in fact - I agree with some of your points, but please don't keep trying to influence who I/we should vote for based on your personal preference. I think Farrage is quite interesting when I hear him speak but only for five minutes. His populist playing to the crowd approach is all very well (although tiresome after a while) but I have yet to see anything that approaches a manifesto.

At least Cameron is open to a referendum, Milliband has outright ruled one out.

Here is the man who I would like to take the wheel...