To My Fellow Christians

Originally posted by EllaMarina
I'll say this: more than anything, I'm disturbed by some users' seemingly happy attitude towards nonbelievers going to hell. The "warnings" are packaged in glee.

Though I'm not one of them, I suspect that a bit of that is in reaction to those who treat them (in the present or past) as being stupid, gullible or crazy for believing in God. I've been called all of them, and while I don't care a whole lot, it's not surprising that some meet an air of superiority with a bit of the same.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by ProfessorChaos

 

And if the work of the cross involved an all-inclusive and unconditional love, then it applies equally to everyone regardless of what they believe, thus making Christ something to be discovered and enjoyed, like a free gift of great value, and alleviating the Christian from the task of proselytizing.

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do."

I once took this notion to some church leaders, to share an epiphany I'd had about this idea of the all-inclusive Christ of unconditional love. They "got it" and they expressed great relief, because, after all, who would want to be part of an exclusive club at the expense of everyone else's exclusion, plus it makes sharing the joy of the free gift of God's grace that much more enjoyable, takes the heat off you could say.

The gospel, in one form or another has been preached to the world, and because of the way it's been preached, ironically, it's turned off a LOT of people.

Now our challenge as Christians resides in presenting the good news of the gospel in a purely invitational and non-coercive manner, which ought not be so difficult when that M.O. is at the very heart of the gospel message itself.

A person cannot be told and instructed to repent. Repentance is a natural reaction and response to the magnitude of the free gift of God's grace through the person and work of Jesus Christ.

So somehow, we must figure out a way to re-cast the gospel and re-present it, so that the reaction/response isn't one of rebellion and rejection, but instead, based on an appeal to the highest faculty of reason is one of "OMG I never looked at it that way before and it breaks my heart now looking back in hindsight the degree to which I was so self-willed, selfish, egocentric, even wicked" - thus evoking the kind of transformative change and psychological and spiritual growth Jesus had in mind.

We must become, through that same process of transformation like pearls in the gate as a point of attraction, whereby we cannot really give from what we don't already possess.

Therefore, unless we can present an irresistibly attractive and perfectly reasonable gospel message, then we ought to just STFU (forgive my language).

And those who bash Christianity and us, they simply don't know what they are opposing, because if they did then they would understand the absurdity of attacking the all-inclusive, unconditional love of God who created everything so that we might get to enjoy a shared experience in our mutual Liberation, set free for the sake of freedom, to freely and fully love as we are loved. It's the kind of thing, once understood, that cannot be reasonably opposed.

So what's the gospel message? We were at enmity with God because of our sins, but because of the love of God presented through Jesus Christ, we are made friends with God in spite of our sins, evoking in us a response of love in kind of the magnitude and the caliber capable of overcoming our sinful nature and over time, however fast or slowly and in whatever way however big or small, transforming us to reach our full stature as children of a loving God as intended. Something like that.

There is nothing that we must or even CAN do to "qualify" because we all fell short of the glory of God except one among us who went the whole distance for the sake of everything that's worthwhile.

Who can object to that?

The problem with the people who label themselves Christians is that you are not upholding the same values and ideals. I will give you two examples of two extreme views within the people who call themselves christians:

1 The dualistic ones who say their way or hell who hates other people on the ground on sexuality, different religion and dogmatic spewing of learned conditioned understanding of scripture that they are told by priests.

2 The seekers who read the bible themselves and think about what they read and try to find understanding of god from it and can understand the thing meant behind the limitation of language. The people who love and do not judge their soulbrothers and soulsisters. The people who follow Jesus example.

The first extreme is only interested from my point of view in being in a grouping that has the correct answer and are only christian as a mask. Like they Westboro Baptist Church. They might say Jesus but there is nothing holy and spiritual in their message and being. These are the people that make me never want anything to do with Christianety at alI.

The second extreme is the people I could see myself joining if I did not had my own experiances of the other side that made choosing a religion to follow totally unimportant. I do not have the same view of Jesus as a Christian of Jesus and I cannot be sure that he existed but then I cannot be sure anything existed before my own birth either . If that soul walked this planet and made that mission then by judging the message he is one of the blessed ones, even from my point of view and I am hard to impress.

Obey the golden rule and you do not knock on the door with you mind but with what you are (especially what ideals you follow and your heart).

I am not a Christian and I agree with everything you said. Fantastic post. Great job! Also, as another poster stated above, posting scripture is a SUREFIRE way to prevent me from reading any of your post. There are some posters who can't help themselves from posting walls of scripture whenever they post in ANY thread, regardless of it being related to religion or not. That drives me insane, and I haven't read a single one of their posts in years.

FYI. I've read the Bible (Old Testament AND New Testament) cover to cover four times. Religion is fascinating. If I haven't been converted by now your posts on ATS are certainly not going to do it.

"Love one another as I have loved you."

Sounds reasonable enough, however unreasonably reasonable, given the source (limitless love).

"But, who then is "the other"? someone pipes up with..

The answer is clear.

There is imho, only one reason to call one's self a "Christian" and that is to have e center and source who is the personification of love itself, even to the nth degree.

If so, ours is a wellspring of living water relative to which anyone who's thirsty can freely drink. This is a non-coercive, invitation only type of deal.

Therefore, the love of God in Jesus Christ is all-inclusive and invitational (non coercive). Otherwise it's just not in congruent alignment with that same love, which to be love must be freely given, and, freely received in kind. Then and only then could it be called real Christian love.

Love only for one type of person (Christian for fellow Christian only) is not love, but the worst kind of fanaticism and idolatrous worship.

"That's why we must spread the word to get them saved" says the Christian.

They are already saved however, by the all-inclusive nature of the power of the cross, whether they know it or not, so the good news of the gospel, in it's infinite reasonableness, is that everyone's already saved and there's not a thing we or they can do about it, but to either accept the free gift by invitation (however incalculable may be it's value and the value assigned to the individual according to it's remedy), or, put it on "reserve" for some other time and continue on as they were.. It cannot be rejected in the sense that (just like God) it's still there, waiting and inviting..

There's only one truth and one doorway who is Christ, praise God, but it's quite capable I think of representing itself in a way and a manner that's unique to each person from the POV of the qualia of their own personal spiritual experience (may they discover for themselves the love of God in Christ).

And I'm just here to let everyone know that Jesus is the love of God, nothing more, nothing less.

Who can oppose or rebel against the love of God? It's absurd, and if there's a great joke to be had, it WILL be had in the fullness of time and history, where the absurdities of the injustices do not have the last word or the last laugh, robbing us of our humor and our joy, our happiness and lasting satisfaction. Jesus overcame that, and held the rest in reserve for us, what a marvel!

This is what I would like people to understand about the Christian experience, namely that it is so powerful, and so practical, that it's capable of restoring us to our own humor and joy and full and free self expression as we really are in our absolute Liberation from everything that would otherwise bind us or constrain us and prevent us from realizing the kingdom of heaven and as the demarcation threshold beyond which, looking back, and forward, that there can be nothing whatsoever to fear. There's a sigh of relief and childlike wonderment there.. like summer holidays again but also for the first time.

"Do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand."

It's an experience that can also be tested once God-contact has been made, because He IS helpful, however subtle, yet unmistakable, are his ways.

"Our liberation is God's compulsion."
~ C.S. Lewis

reply to post by NewAgeMan

A person cannot be told and instructed to repent. Repentance is a natural reaction and response to the magnitude of the free gift of God's grace through the person and work of Jesus Christ.

So somehow, we must figure out a way to re-cast the gospel and re-present it, so that the reaction/response isn't one of rebellion and rejection, but instead, based on an appeal to the highest faculty of reason is one of "OMG I never looked at it that way before and it breaks my heart now looking back in hindsight the degree to which I was so self-willed, selfish, egocentric, even wicked" - thus evoking the kind of transformative change and psychological and spiritual growth Jesus had in mind.

We must become, through that same process of transformation like pearls in the gate as a point of attraction, whereby we cannot really give from what we don't already possess.

Therefore, unless we can present an irresistibly attractive and perfectly reasonable gospel message, then we ought to just STFU (forgive my language).

Thank you, NAM!!! Yes. Re-cast and re-present it..... make it perfectly reasonable and irrestistably attractive......
in all of its versions: Torah, Bible, Koran.

reply to post by wildtimes

Indeed. And Christ is the perfect Bridegroom and there's lots of food (for grokking) to go around, and we'll have to have the courage to have a taste of this and that once we're there, to honor our brothers and our sisters who've all gathered around the same table, which is still the table of the Lord whether they see him there at the head of the table, or not ie: it's a passionate love relationship between God and mankind as the Spirit and the Bride. If anything that's the secret wisdom that the Christian is aware of, or ought to be, and that we've come to celebrate our re-union with God in the context of the whole brotherhood of man. Anything less is just.. UNChristian, in the final analysis, so the jokes definitely on us as well that's for sure!

If only I could share something with him capable of making the atheist also laugh but for all the right reasons (no mockery present), when I can do that, and be "at table" with him, the one who persecutes me, without any enmity of any kind at all, then and perhaps only then could I call myself a true Christian.

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
~ Revelation 22:17

That's the last real statement on the last page of the Bible, sealing it, and I know there's a lot of people who would like to close the book on the Bible, so there you go. The end and the new beginning even as the flow of life in eternity, is a wholly non-coercive, invitational-only proposition.

"But what about the tribulation and all the death destruction and horror that must come first?" I hear some of my Christian brethren saying... now isn't that funny, more good jokes to be had at the Great Wedding Table, with God piping in that he put that stuff in there just to goad us and test our mettle to see what kind of Christians we really are!

Due to my new work schedule and then caring for my 1 month old son when I get home, my replies to this thread will be infrequent and general.

To those that have read my entire post, Thank you.

To those that didn't get it, I will only point out that the thread wasn't about not engaging non-believers in threads, it was about being Christ-like when doing so.

But thank you all for taking the time to read the thread.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

The baptism of Christ is now, you can be made free from your sin today. What you say is not only incorrect but highly damaging to anyone who hears you and believes you. Jesus and the father are with me now. I am not waiting for anything except what I have already been promised by the baptism of Christ. And I'm not speaking of water baptism.

Sorry OP if this is the type of reply you are referring too, but I can't continue to allow the power of the cross to be diminished by those who deny its power.

Of course. I didn't say they weren't with you, but you are not with them. When Paul said, "THEN", he was referring to THE day he was looking forward to.

1 Corinthians 13

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

There was NOW in the first century and a THEN later. When is later?

Acts 24

15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Many mistakes are made by our theology when we fail to see that we must be born again. There is no choice. Our current theology ignores the words in the Bible that demonstrate that we will be born again. Let me give you one of those verses:

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Why would God continually say that a person was one way now, but later, after Israel is restored, we will be another way? How could it say this unless we are here again. Did Job know?

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

I have three witnesses that THE change from faith to fact is during the first resurrection. What happens at that time?

Hebrews 9

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

And where do WE wait? What are WE waiting for? The Day of the Lord. It's the entire topic of the Bible. Are you in heaven now? No? Then you are not WITH God.

1 John 4:12

No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

God is with you, yes. You are not with God yet. You do not see face to face. If you did, you would be IN context with truth. As of now, we are not in context with truth. If we were, we would not sin.

1 John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:6

If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

You can't walk by anything except faith now. You will walk in truth and life when the Holy Spirit is given to mankind. This cannot happen until the enemy is made the footstool. Has Christ handed everything over to God yet? Are you IN Christ?

1 Corinthians 15

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

If you wish to contradict this, then show it with scripture. Don't simply imply that I am leading people astray. Please demonstrate your position to me.

Do people still die? YES. They will also be born again in the last 1000 years, WITH a Holy Spirit.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

I liked this part

No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

How more perfect can a love be, and neither can this be an imposition on the mind and heart of man, so there it is!

That's our "work" to complete the circle of joy in his love for us, extended to ourselves and one another, like a wellspring.

It's coming, can't not eventually, so the messianic expectation is not unreasonable, however unreasonably reasonable it may be.

reply to post by ProfessorChaos


Lead by example by living like Christ and minister to those want to be ministered too.

Great post, ProfessorChaos. I like your detailed list of points.

This one, #7:

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos

7) Expect persecution; be it warranted or unwarranted. Christ told us that as believers we would fall prey to intense persecution because of Him. Don't get all butt-hurt when it happens, when you gained faith in Christ, you should have been aware that it would happen, so stop whining about it.

is particularly apt. Jesus told us that the student won't have it better than the teacher, the servant won't have it better than the master. Why do so many 21st-century Christians, especially here in the US, seem to feel the whole world should roll over at our feet just because we're Christian? Scripture (which we claim to believe) tells us otherwise.

A metaphor I've used in the past is to compare it to getting a kidney transplant. The transplant is a GOOD thing, it will save my life, but my body doesn't want to accept it and, left to its own devices, will attack the new organ and kill it. As Christians, we're like the new kidney and the body is like the world. We believe our presence is good for the world, but the world sees us as a foreign invader and fights back. We've been told this will happen, it comes with the territory.

Also, congrats and good luck with the new baby!

reply to post by ProfessorChaos

There is a lot of hate and disdain out there for the Christian church

Hmmm...I WONDER WHY...maybe it's because they are tax free and get money from ignorant people just to hear them speak.

Originally posted by Evanzsayz
maybe it's because they are tax free and get money from ignorant people just to hear them speak.

Yes, I'm sure that anti-theist trolls are driven by tax issues.

Well i'm not going to speak for others but, i don't bother with the whole hellfire and brimestone thing. Christianity has been around for 2000 years, so they have heard the name of the Lord and it is up to them to seek him out and inquire of him. His name is being preached in every corner of the world so they have no excuse when the day of the Lord comes.

I prefer to spend my time teaching about the various aspects of the faith itself, to give others in the faith who do not know certain things, more background into what we do and why we do it.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


It is a possibility that we can enter the massionic era together. If not we may end up killing everyone and everything in the war of Gog and Magog. Time will tell but all things are possible for love.

reply to post by BlueMule


The term "Christian mystic" is an oxymoron. If you want to follow Jesus Christ and become a Christian then you must repent of your sins and surrender your life to him. If you do that you will become born-again and you will be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by BlueMule

 

The term "Christian mystic" is an oxymoron.

In your opinion, perhaps it is. But as a comparativist I know better. Spend some time studying comparative mysticism and you will too. I recommend starting here.

If you want to follow Jesus Christ and become a Christian then you must repent of your sins and surrender your life to him. If you do that you will become born-again and you will be filled with the Holy Spirit.

edit on 26-1-2013 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

I have been born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit, thanks for your concern. It's a life-changing mystical experience. A total game-changer. It's a profound experience and it's between me and God. It's not your place to judge it or me.

reply to post by BlueMule

Originally posted by BlueMule
In your opinion, perhaps it is. But as a comparativist I know better. Spend some time studying comparative mysticism and you will too. I recommend starting here.

Absolutely not. New age mysticism cloaked in Christian terminology is NOT Christianity...

It is God's will to declare spiritual truth through the apostles of the Church by the vehicle of the Holy Scriptures not through mystical experiences. You cannot go “within” to find Jesus, if we do that we will find instead that our fleshy desires produce nothing good.

Originally posted by BlueMule
I have been born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit, thanks for your concern. It's a life-changing mystical experience. A total game-changer. It's a profound experience and it's between me and God. It's not your place to judge it or me.

How do you know that wasn't a counterfeit Holy Spirit ? The devil is a master of mimicking a real blessing given by God to true Christians. Being born again is NOT an experience. Many people today speak of being born again as merely an "experience" in their past; but salvation MUST involve the guilt of personal sin, the condemnation which God Law brings, the sacrifice of the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ for our sins, and one's personal faith in Jesus Christ alone for forgiveness.

I think you take a look at this, it's a person named Christine Pack who was once deceived into Christian Mysticism. She is now a born again Christian.

solasisters.blogspot.co.uk...

If a person isn't in relationship with Christ and is not in love with him, then he doesn't have him.

God made his will known in Jesus, and through Jesus we can know God having been made friends with God, and that's the knowledge of experience, not a mere profession of faith. Also there is nothing that we must or can do to "qualify".

A forumula isn't a relationship.