To My Fellow Christians

reply to post by ProfessorChaos

As Christians, we are called on by Christ to judge ourselves for our actions, not to judge others. Be responsible for yourself and your family, everyone else will have to answer for themselves, it is not your place to pass judgement on anyone else, let alone a non-believer, I mean think about it for a moment, would that type of behavior win you over to someone else's cause? Of course not.

What I am trying to say is this: We should know from the bible that true Christians are and always will be the extreme minority in this world, get used to it; otherwise, you'll actually be hurting the cause of Christ rather than helping it. Share your faith with those that want you to, don't force it on those that do not. If someone is going to be in the Book of Life, they'll get there in their own time.

Again, I need examples. I don't see this on ATS much. Most of the threads I read are very pleasant to read. They are examples of Christians seeking truth. I do see the attacks and the occasional Christian comment that is filled with condescension. This happens. Many people make the mistake in thinking that the Holy Spirit is something we possess currently. While many are holy, the Spirit is given to mankind next on the timeline. Because of this, the Spirit is simply a comforter at this point. When you have the Holy Spirit yourself, you will be changed instantly. No sin will be possible. When does this come on the timeline?

First, Matthew 3 states it clearly. That baptism comes when Christ returns.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The baptism he offers now is into the first resurrection. That's where we are today. The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes by Christ during the "Day of the Lord," or last 1000 years.

Here is the timeline.

Epistle of Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an
end."

2 Days -Adam to Abraham 2000 Years of Age 1 (FATHER)
2 Days -Abraham to Jesus 2000 Years of Age 2 (SON)
2 Days -Jesus to Today 2000 Years of Age 3 (HOLY SPIRIT)
1 Day -Day of Rest (Day of the Lord) 1000 years (SALVATION)
-------
7 Days (7000 years - Approximately 6000 have passed)

At the end of each age, a new aspect of Creation is given to mankind. We currently have the Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is a comforter, but at the last age, we receive this by the blood.

Today, we are ALL the ones that lack. Christians have no positional good when it comes to knowing God or possessing the Spirit in holiness. I do agree with your comments, yet I see why patience with all is necessary. We are all on this path to the same place. It's not about what we do, but what is being done for us.

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos
In my short time here on ATS, I have seen a large amount of religious flame-wars between non-Christians and Christians. With that in mind, I would like to offer a few thoughts regarding how Christians reply to flagrantly anti-Christian posts.

I've been reading ATS for a while, but seldom post. Please hear me out, I have a few questions for you.

1) Stop threatening non-believers with fire and brimstone. In most cases, they've heard it all before. You telling them that God will smite them will most likely NOT result in "Oh, wow! I had no idea that was what he would do if I didn't follow him. I'll just run off and worship him now! Thank you Christian!" If they do not believe in God, or follow Christ, threats of of his wrath are hardly going to sway them.

Why should they stop threatening Hell? It is, after all, the teaching of the mainstream Church (though it sounds rather ridiculous to me!)

2) Scripture verses will NOT prove your point to a non-believer. If the Bible is nothing more than fairy tales to the poster, what is the point of tossing verses at them? It's like if you and I were arguing about the possibility of the existence of giants and I roll out Jack and the Beanstalk as my proof of their existence; It would look pretty foolish, wouldn't it?

But is not the Bible, according to fundamentalists, the 'inerrant Word of God'? What better tool to use to spread Truth!

The Bible is a collection of words, and words are symbols. Symbols are up to interpretation.

3) If a post offends you, STOP READING IT! Replying to voice your disgust with someone else's point of view of your faith will only make you look backward and ignorant. Move on to a topic that you can take part in in a mature informed manner, after all, this site is NOT a Christian site; there are a great many different belief systems being employed by the posters here and though you may be offended by it, it is their right to post their opinions regardless of your sensibilities.

How can you ever know you are right about something if you aren't willing to see the other viewpoint?

4) There is a lot of hate and disdain out there for the Christian church, some of it is well founded. Why do I say that as a Christian? Simple. WE ENCOURAGE IT WITH OUR BEHAVIOR! If you want to change someone's view of your faith (which in my opinion is a fools errand anyhow), Display proper Christian behavior in your posts. Only by exhibiting the love of Christ can we expect others to even begin to entertain the thought of wanting to know Him.

My disdain for Christianity has nothing to do with your behavior. It has to do with fundamentalist Christianity discouraging independent thought while encouraging apathy through an erroneous delusion of superiority ('we're right, they're wrong).

5) Stop feeding the Trolls. This one is easy to understand (or it should be). There are plenty of folks out there that want nothing more than to confound Christians with their posts; stop falling into the trap and move along.

6) Not everyone is going to follow Christ, so stop insisting that they recognize Him. As believers, we are told in scripture that there is going to be only a select few that make it into Heaven, so why on earth would you feel shocked that there are so many non-believers?

If only a 'select few' make it into Heaven, what happens to the rest of us? 'Eternal Damnation' because we chose to use our God-given free will? Looks to me like your religion is trying to keep you in fear...

7) As Christians, we are called on by Christ to judge ourselves for our actions, not to judge others. Be responsible for yourself and your family, everyone else will have to answer for themselves, it is not your place to pass judgement on anyone else, let alone a non-believer, I mean think about it for a moment, would that type of behavior win you over to someone else's cause? Of course not.

Then why make this post? Are you not passing judgement on others if you think you have the authority to tell them what to say?

What I am trying to say is this: We should know from the bible that true Christians are and always will be the extreme minority in this world, get used to it; otherwise, you'll actually be hurting the cause of Christ rather than helping it. Share your faith with those that want you to, don't force it on those that do not. If someone is going to be in the Book of Life, they'll get there in their own time.

Reality is different than it appears, my friend. This life is not nearly as important as you think it to be, and there is no eternal punishment.

The Kingdom of Heaven is within You. The Father and I are One.

heh heh... keep christ in christian eh!!!
thats all in good sport,but unfortunately,christians are 'holier than thou',don't ya know!
(i did like your peice,though! )

hows about all the christians take some time to really study the actual history of your 'faith'!
first off,after the christ died,his brother james took over the 'church'.
paul(saul) tried to hijack the movement and warped it into some idol worshiping cult.
he was a constant pain in the ass for the jerusalem church. the gospels and acts attest to this.
if you wanna follow christ,follow the essene way of life,even though they wouldn't let you, because your probably a gentile,AND NOT JEWISH!!!
next leave your church! jesus NEVER taught in a church-ever! jesus chased away the money changers at the temple for sacrilege! besides,the temple was for the high priest only. (the only reason jews have a synagog now is because the temple has never been rebuilt. if it had,it would be like mecca to the jews - one temple only!
churches only serve man's greed and folly.
practice what you preach! 'if you want to be like the christ,do the workings of the christ!!!'
stop believing the christ was some kind of man/god! thats so pagan yesterday!
christ and his crew would think this an abomination and would probably stone you to death for thinking that!!!
messiah is a jewish term that means something like 'king in waiting'. jesus had his shot at being king,and failed miserably!
there have been a few 'messiahs in jewish history,the last one probably being simon bar kotchba-"son of the star'. unfortunately,he died in the last jewish revolt against the romans where the last jewish temple was destroyed,the jews chased away,and basically ending all biblical judaism for ever.
face it,modern christianity is the product of rome,not jesus.
it was the romans who legalized it.brought all the waring factions of christians together on the same (roman) page,tweaked it to their liking,and let it loose upon the world!
lastly i will say (without going into parables,peshers and the like....most lay christians wouldn't truly understand the real meanings of these anyway)the only real lesson the christ tried to teach was that the kingdom of heaven
is inside of you,not in some far off place!
if you truly understand this lesson, you will indeed allow 'the dead to bury their own'.

"what is hidden in the dark,will be exposed in the light."
"what is whispered in back rooms,will be shouted from the rooftops".
and when the christ said - "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle,than it is for a rich man to see heaven",and the meek,or poor shall inherit the earth,
he is using a parable and a pesher.
the meek,or poor,was the jerusalem church,and the rich was the outside world.
blessed be
shalom.

meanwhile chirstians are being murdered throughout the world for their faith. I like to voice my disgust at that.

Originally posted by Carreau
This may be the best Christian thread/post I have read on ATS. Thank you.

S+F

yep....

same here.. !!

Got it. Don't use the law, and the reality of God's wrath to wake up a non believer, ignore the great commision (cause there are lots of people that will reject the gospel), don't rely on the authority of God's Word (human reason is so much better), and throw your God given moral compass in the trash can, there is no need to bring decency to a thread.

I have known since day 1 that ATS was a bastion of secular humanism, it was to be expected. The same cast of God hating characters troll the site for every Christian topic to bash, as well as starting threads with the intention of "debunking" the faith. They ask the same questions that have been answered dozens of times on ATS, much more thousands of times on apologetic sites. The reality is that the majority of members here, read and don't actually post to the threads. While the die hard athiests voices his disdain for a Bible verse, that same verse may speak to someone reading it. My focus is for the latter.

reply to post by ProfessorChaos

2) Scripture verses will NOT prove your point to a non-believer. If the Bible is nothing more than fairy tales to the poster, what is the point of tossing verses at them? It's like if you and I were arguing about the possibility of the existence of giants and I roll out Jack and the Beanstalk as my proof of their existence; It would look pretty foolish, wouldn't it?

I would say that the point in posting verses, even though one may think that it is just a fairy tale, would be that Scripture is God's Word and is powerful enough to change the person that interacts with it.

Although I definitely agree with cutting out the condescension, the rest of the OP just sounds like an appeal to back down and avoid conflict in order to keep peace. I don't think that is the calling Christians were given at the great commission. I think if you have a certain stance you should stick by it. Although ATS is not a religious site, there is a religion thread. Christians have just as much a right to defend their claims as non-Christians have to debunk them. Let's not forget that this site allows people to bring differing viewpoints to light for open debate.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by ProfessorChaos

 

1) Stop threatening non-believers with fire and brimstone. In most cases, they've heard it all before. You telling them that God will smite them will most likely NOT result in "Oh, wow! I had no idea that was what he would do if I didn't follow him. I'll just run off and worship him now! Thank you Christian!" If they do not believe in God, or follow Christ, threats of of his wrath are hardly going to sway them.

Examples? I don't see this. I have been here for a few years now and I have yet to see a thread that proclaims this type of language.

edit on 22-1-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

Ahem.... This happens ALL the time mate. All the time... and I have been here since 2007.

IRM

reply to post by ProfessorChaos


/Clap @ the OP.

As a non believer... some of the points are spot on... and i can't believe it came out of a believer. If more people like you are on this forums, there would be less flame war.

Especially the bible quotation.... that is so true.... all i see is a robot when i see quotes.

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by ProfessorChaos

 

/Clap @ the OP.

As a non believer... some of the points are spot on... and i can't believe it came out of a believer. If more people like you are on this forums, there would be less flame war.

Especially the bible quotation.... that is so true.... all i see is a robot when i see quotes.

edit on 1/23/2013 by luciddream because: (no reason given)

Indeed... on all accounts. This is the best thread from a religious person I have ever read on the forum. The OP actually gets it!

IRM

reply to post by ProfessorChaos


I have to say that I agree with you completely. Lead by example. I like it. It did make me smile to see one of the prime examples of your point posting in your thread.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


The baptism of Christ is now, you can be made free from your sin today. What you say is not only incorrect but highly damaging to anyone who hears you and believes you. Jesus and the father are with me now. I am not waiting for anything except what I have already been promised by the baptism of Christ. And I'm not speaking of water baptism.

Sorry OP if this is the type of reply you are referring too, but I can't continue to allow the power of the cross to be diminished by those who deny its power.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

The baptism of Christ is now, you can be made free from your sin today. What you say is not only incorrect but highly damaging to anyone who hears you and believes you. Jesus and the father are with me now. I am not waiting for anything except what I have already been promised by the baptism of Christ. And I'm not speaking of water baptism.

Sorry OP if this is the type of reply you are referring too, but I can't continue to allow the power of the cross to be diminished by those who deny its power.

I'm sorry but it seems narcissistic or even delusional to suggest you have either the power or right to disallow anything. You are NOT a soldier of christ and if these gentlemen (should they actually exist) be all powerful as Christians suggest they are, they certainly don't need your help defending their own religious iconology.

If Jesus and 'the father' are with you now, I want a photograph to prove it otherwise it's just a figment of your imagination. Unfalsifiable religious mumbo jumbo!

Incidentally, the cross is a stolen pagan/celtic symbol and the story of the crucifixion has been simply retro-fitted/fabricated to explain it away as Christian iconology.



Educate yourself!

IRM

reply to post by ProfessorChaos


And if the work of the cross involved an all-inclusive and unconditional love, then it applies equally to everyone regardless of what they believe, thus making Christ something to be discovered and enjoyed, like a free gift of great value, and alleviating the Christian from the task of proselytizing.

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do."

reply to post by octotom

I would say that the point in posting verses, even though one may think that it is just a fairy tale, would be that Scripture is God's Word and is powerful enough to change the person that interacts with it.

I spend time on this board every day, and I want to say right here....if a member inserts a bunch of numbered scripture in the post, I skip right over it. I don't read the verses. I'm more interested in what people alive now have to say, from their own minds, in their own words.

Please understand that unaffiliated people might not bother to read the scriptures posted - that, in my opinion, is why they are unnecessary and irritating. It's fine to say "Chapter x, verse y" as a reference, which ANYONE can then go look up. But simply c/p verses expecting people to read them and say, "Ahhhh!! Now I see!" is not realistic.

Also, simply because of the proselytizing that goes on every day, it causes - in my mind - Christians to appear to be "Bible Thumpers". Just saying. It portrays a mindset that skeptics and non-dogmatic people may very well dismiss...
and I don't think that's really the point that members want to make, is it??

I think the OP's points are very good.

Scripture itself is the problem it would appear.

It is highly unclear, suggestive of all to many things and the modern "Christian" really has no basis in even existing.

This is what gets the hackles up of the Christian, who believe in this amazingly flawed book and have had to retrain the brain in amazing ways to get themselves to accept it as being even partially true.

Since the Christians themselves believe they have an insight through the Holy Spirit that makes the Words tell an entirely different tale that they can spin on themselves, they like to quote it vociferously.

Most of the time this can at least be true at times, but alot of it they do not understand at all, but have allowed an organization to shape their thinking as is true in any brainwash scheme.

The fact they do not see that all religions including their own do not exist without an all prevailing fear to force them to believe this nonsense is very telling, and it also explains why they CANNOT allow themselves to question anything, for the fears they have are actually in the extreme category, and are completely masked into believing that fear is healthy, and positive, and will lead them to the promised land.

The OP has many good points, however he cannot remain as a mainstream Christian and will be attacked for it, for he clearly lacks the convictions demanded by most of the 1000's of organizations of entrainment, according to them of course.

Great post.
Be aware that since the Bible commands that its followers go out and try to make converts, the all-Scripture posts and warnings of hell aren't going anywhere anytime soon. I suggested on Yahoo Answers that this pushy method is part of what gives Christianity such an annoying reputation, and was assured by one responder that because of this command, she'd be continuing to go out and do it anyway, thank you very much. Plus, heaven! I sighed, but really, what can you do?

I'll say this: more than anything, I'm disturbed by some users' seemingly happy attitude towards nonbelievers going to hell. The "warnings" are packaged in glee.
(I might not have encountered in on this particular website, but since this is really the only forum I regularly spend my time on...)

reply to post by EllaMarina


excellent points, Ella!!
I know you are a young woman...and I applaud your common sense and wisdom in these issues!

You're absolutely right, "glee" is the overarching tone, indeed!

reply to post by wildtimes


Thank you.
I often got the urge to point out that PR is a very important thing to keep in mind. It's like a business. As a representative of your religion, you paint the face of it to whoever you are trying to convince. Sadly, wannabe converters expect the Holy Spirit to do it all for them, and when they predictably fail, they blame it on the other person's unwillingness to accept salvation.

I used to be a Christian in my teens, so I have some insight into the mindset. Oh, was I prancing around in spiritual joy. I thought the people I spoke to were simply blind to the truth that I knew must be obvious to everyone in the world if only they'd look.