Religious Zealotry and its Inherent Hypocrisy Towards Masonry

Originally posted by HoneyBe
To answer your questions. Yes of course, I would not deny anyone the right to defend themselves. And no, I do not think we should attack one another, but it happens...we have to be strong enough in our personal beliefs to deal with the attacks, that is a big part of Jesus' teachings. When we come under attack for what we believe, it's not always our answers but our WAY of dealing with the attacker and that was my point regarding Freemasonry and how poorly you all deal with being attacked thus how poorly you end up defending any truth there, even if there is one. Jesus Christ, I pray is always present with me, in my mistakes, my errors, my sinning and my worst moods, hopefully to help me learn better as well in how to deal with certain situations, such as...well, this one right here.

I think you might have forgotten how you entered this thread, perhaps a refresher is in order.....

Originally posted by HoneyBe
Speaking on behalf of myself here, I think God has encouraged strongly for those that DO follow Him to assist others who have strayed away from Him and truth. The one thing I do know for sure about Freemasonry is that it is a "house" which allows pretty well any male (sometimes females in other sects) but speaking specifically of Freemasonry, you can be of any belief provided you "voice" the belief in a "Higher power". So you have various men of various religious and non-religious beliefs and background(s) together under "one roof" and then teach them everything that goes against what they had believed (depending upon their religion of course). So it might not have all of those conspiracies you provided, but, the one truth it does have is "de truthing" the members and then ever so sweetly brainwashing them into another form of belief-which makes "Freemasonry" by all standards we know of- A Religion- of it's own kind but denying the fact of what it is at that same time.

I mourn & pray for people who are so severely deceived with their longing to join anything to feel they are part of something or are "working together to make the world a better place", but it is the oldest trick known to mankind and still..hook, line and sinker great men have fallen away from truth/faith and fallen captive to lies and secrets. It's not a game and when the cloak is finally pulled from "their" eyes, it will indeed, be a sad realization.

Lastly...I would say to anyone, if you feel attacked for your beliefs, then question your beliefs with wisdom and a pure heart and come back to the attacker with valid answers and display yourself as genuine and honest. Because if Masonry is suppose to teach men to be better men and brotherhood of love and making the world better, you all are doing a very crappy job of showing that is indeed what you're learning inside those lodges. Just sayin....with honesty

edit on 23-1-2013 by HoneyBe because: (no reason given)

So here you are starting out saying that masons de-truth their members,and brainwash them, all the while, not having much of any idea what being a Freemason is. If you look at the thread title, you will see how incredible ironic your posts actually are.

As has been said, if you start to ask questions respectfully, you will get all the respectful answers you want. But if you continue to sit atop your throne, we won't be able to see you what with bowing down and all. Respect=respect.

Originally posted by HoneyBe
Slimeballs? Do they teach manners and decorum in your particular fraternity?

Do they reprogram these alleged Christians (Muslims, Jews, etc) who come here spouting lies and positing them as truth to do so despite their religion preaching to be truthful?

If you feel this applies to you then maybe you need to rethink your faith.

If the "group" is good, the fruits will be too, simple as that!

My point exactly. I do not come here with anything other then the truth and everything I say is either sourced or easily verifiable. Unlike the religious zealots that just come with their 'facts' and other tactics outlined in the Original Post. What does that say for the relgious liars and apologists?

Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by OnTheLevel213

 

No, it doesn't. That's the point I'm driving at. I can talk about a whole hell of a lot about Freemasonry, and have done so on this forum when questions were asked. Just because I can't talk about one thing doesn't absolve someone from asking a single question before speculating.

True, but by not answering questions because you cannt talk about it, leaves room for speculation. Which as a i said on my first post part of it, the blame is on the secret society itself.

If OTL or some other Mason here were the only possible vector for the answer to a particular question, you might have a point. However the inconvenient truth is that the information's freely available from a number of sources (many thorough and worthwhile; others slanted and screedlike)

If you choose to speculate then that's a direct outcome of YOUR choice.

Originally posted by Seed76

True, but not the point. My obligation to consider a theory is nowhere near the magnitude of its proponent's obligation to conduct a thorough investigation prior to presenting it.

That might be true. But in all honesty, how can you expect your proponent to conduct a thorough investigation, since there are things "you cannot talk about" it ? But i understand what are you are saying.

If OTL or some other Mason here were the only possible vector for the answer to a particular question, you might have a point. However the inconvenient truth is that the information's freely available from a number of sources (many thorough and worthwhile; others slanted and screedlike)

If you choose to speculate then that's a direct outcome of YOUR choice.

Originally posted by Seed76

"Freemasons control [powerful organization]" is not necessarily religious.

Yeah, but i have to admit the idea of the cloak and dagger world control element is very alluring…

Peace

And therein lies the appeal to conspiracy theories in general; they presuppose hidden information and confer unspecified power to those who have (by dint of their unique wit) discovered this hidden information. We all want to be special in some way; conspiracy theorists do it by reinforcing Smacko's Razor

Fitz

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Leo Zagami was a Freemason and proves so in this video.

Leo Zagami (A.K.A. Leo Young, A.K.A. Khaled Saifullah Khan) is a known hoaxer who claims to have been a member of the Comitato Esecutivo Massonico - Masonic Executive Committee (MEC) of Monte Carlo.

The truth is Monaco has only one Masonic Lodge (Port of Hercules Lodge #4626) which was founded there in 1924 by the United Grand Lodge of England. It is governed directly from London and is the only lodge of the English Constitution still remaining in "French" territory.

edit on 24-1-2013 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude is a beerless Luciferian

How did I ever miss this gem. Leo Zagami! Did you know he was also head of the Illuminati? It's true! He even said so.

I think this youngster deserves everything he gets from the zealot nut-job sites he is frequenting.

Oh, and that wasn't Steve after all. Turned out to be a nice guy, just angry.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Aleicester Crowley...are/were Freemasons.

This is another often perputallu repeated lie. Crowley joined and irregular group and left when he found out he did not join Regular Masonry.

Spreading faslehoods is listed in the Original Post as one of the tactics used by relgious zealots to prove a point. All you do is reinforce that for everyone to see.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
The freemasons of this thread cannot discuss therefore I shant continue the conversation here.

Promises, promises.

jk

Fitz

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Seed76
I do not think, is a matter of Religious Zealotry.

I was not speaking generally but targeting a specific group of posters who claim to be strict observers of their atested religion but abandon said religion's tenets when it comes to making a point.

Translation: They lie to try and prove a point.

To quote from the tune "It's A Scandal! It's A Outrage!" from Roger and Hammerstein's "Oklahoma"

"You gotta take and make an honest woman out of Nell"
"To make you make her honest she will lie like Hell!"



Fitz

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
The freemasons of this thread cannot discuss therefore I shant continue the conversation here.

The irony.

I expect you to be a good Christian and keep your word.

Good Lord! I go to class and some school events at the Idaho Capitol and this thread explodes 5 more pages.

reply to post by pacifier2012

Yeah, that whole religious tolerance thing scares a lot of people away.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

There is no Lucifer worship and the ex-Mason who say otherwise are lying. I've gone on the Ex-Masons for Jesus website several times just to be banned for speaking the truth. They misconstrue the facts and twist them to suit their fundamentalism.

Most of the ex-Masons on that website amounted to nothing and now I think turn on Freemasonry out of either ignorance, spite, or jealousy.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

I do love how many anti-Masons come on say they have an inside source, but can never really give us any credentials as to what they did in the Fraternity.

They usually play this card when they've backed themselves into a corner.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

So? The British Royals and the British Masons have no authority outside of their Grand Lodge.

I'm so glad you think you have the authority to tell us what we are. Maybe next you'll come and tell me how to operate my aircraft.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

I am very aware of what I'm doing in the rituals and why we do it.

They just follow orders from the ones at the top.

Well, as a presiding officer, I can say that once in a while I'd get some guidance from the Grand body, but most of the time I was left to govern as I saw fit and with the consent of the members.

I don't think you know quite how Freemasonry works.

When your on the outside you can see alot clearer.

Or you misconstrue what you don't understand. One could say from an outside POV that Christians take part in ritualistic and spiritual cannibalism. Now as a Christian I know this to be a misconception of the intent and purpose of the Eucharist, but non-Christians may find it creepy. Standing on the outside and reading tainted writings doesn't really give you an objective or accurate view.

Secret is your doing " things " in a little group, be them religious or occultic or what ever .. away from the public. And specifically not allowing people to see.

Why do you feel you are entitled to know what we do in our meetings?

reply to post by FreedomEntered

Many men have been Freemasons. Some from prominent families and others are not. Who cares?

And suprise suprise, Prince William has married a Jewess, just when Israel is under the radar.

Wow. Nice anti-Jewish rhetoric.

reply to post by HoneyBe

You'd think that with all of this "brainwashing" that my close friends and family would have noticed something by now.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

No offense, but you seem to live by a simplistic view.

Nor are those groups "Luciferian". Particularly the Knights Templar. The Templars of the Crusades were falsely charged by the French King and that is common knowledge. The King lied to erase the debt he owed them and he murdered a Pope to have his puppet put on the Holy Seat to further his tyrannical agenda.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

Crowley is not recognized as a Mason. 14 Presidents have been Masons (the last being Ford). Yes, some of the British Royal Family are members of the Craft, but not all.

Our ritual is not about materialism.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

Your second hand information does not negate my first hand experience. You have not posted any legit sources.

I have yet to see anything remotely true come from your words.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Good Lord! I go to class and some school events at the Idaho Capitol and this thread explodes 5 more pages.

That'll teach ya!

Fitz

reply to post by network dude

I cannot provide the link and I cannot "tell" you the answer, but if you want to know, anything we are obligated to keep secret is in many places on the web. Our handshakes and passwords are mostly it. The way the ritual happens should be kept from anyone who wishes to join, simply because the surprise of how things happen is a large part of the meaning behind it.

If someone takes an oath, then it´s oblige to hold on to it. I can agree with you. Afterall the initiation ritual should be only known to the initiate member. And as you said, from an outside perspective seems convoluted.

I do realize that from an outside perspective, it's convoluted at best, but please, if you have a genuine desire to know something, ask and see what happens. The worst that can happen is you get referred to the Google.

Glad we can agree. And if i have a question, you can be sure that i will ask.
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

Is it really that vexing to you that the Masons here on ATS won't spoonfeed what they've sworn not to?

Have i said anything, to force you to give up your oaths? I have simply outlined part of the problem, as can be percieved from an outside perspective.

It's ridiculous how lazy are those who would have Masons unburden themselves of their sworn obligation. It boggles the mind. Truly!

It´s on every facet of our lives. I guess that is one of the blessings of our century.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

I was not speaking generally but targeting a specific group of posters who claim to be strict observers of their atested religion but abandon said religion's tenets when it comes to making a point.

Translation: They lie to try and prove a point.

Black sheeps, you can find everywere. If someone is steadfast, will not abandon the tenets of his beliefs easily.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

If you choose to speculate then that's a direct outcome of YOUR choice.

Glad we can agree.

Peace

reply to post by FreedomEntered

I love how so many non-members think they are an expert on Freemasonry and can define it as "occultic" or a "cult" or whatever. If we were truly a secret society you wouldn't know if we were members or not because we wouldn't be allowed to say. You wouldn't know where we met and we wouldn't have so much information plastered on the internet.

Even so, there is nothing wrong with secrecy or the privacy we enjoy.

Yes, we have requirements to join. Who cares if we're selective?

Fitz responded to the rest and I really don't care to myself.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Yes, Im not a follower . I cant be herded.

Sure you can.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

You have yet to answer this, but constitutes "upper ranks", "high level", etc?

Where do you think I sit in the Fraternity? (Come on! This is a free shot)

reply to post by FreedomEntered

I disagree. Objectivity is not necessarily with non-members. That is a logical fallacy. See my Eucharist example. Misconceptions can form with non-members and give them a tainted viewpoint.

Gosh ,you freemasons are full of yourself or at least the ones of this thread are.

And yet here you are defining our organization for us and telling us we're not in the know when you are. The arrogance my friend lies with you.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

I have nothing against the British Royals, but then again I don't deal in British politics.

What Satanists?

reply to post by FreedomEntered

Well, we don't bend to play your game. We stand by our facts.

Originally posted by Seed76

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Is it really that vexing to you that the Masons here on ATS won't spoonfeed what they've sworn not to?

Have i said anything, to force you to give up your oaths? I have simply outlined part of the problem, as can be percieved from an outside perspective.

But that's the point: it's emblematic of laziness on the part of those demanding spoonfeeding. This isn't something I'd be proud of, personally. The information's easily accessible; how much more has to be done to assuage fanciful suspicion? Beyond a certain point, the returns start to vary inversely with respect to the work put out. Personally, I think we're past that tipping point

Originally posted by Seed76

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
It's ridiculous how lazy are those who would have Masons unburden themselves of their sworn obligation. It boggles the mind. Truly!

It´s on every facet of our lives. I guess that is one of the blessings of our century.

It's a blessing if the tool's put to use. If it's ignored and allowed to rust, what's its use?

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

If you choose to speculate then that's a direct outcome of YOUR choice.

Glad we can agree.

Peace
Correct me if I'm wrong but what you're saying is that you prefer unsupportable speculation when you just as easily could have facts? Really?

Fitz

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

It's a blessing if the tool's put to use. If it's ignored and allowed to rust, what's its use?

It was meant to be metaphorical. I guessed i have failed at that.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you're saying is that you prefer unsupportable speculation when you just as easily could have facts? Really?

Not at all. What i am saying is, if someone is offering facts, and you choose to speculate, then that´s your choice. Whether you can be taken seriously that´s another thing.

Peace

Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you're saying is that you prefer unsupportable speculation when you just as easily could have facts? Really?

Not at all. What i am saying is, if someone is offering facts, and you choose to speculate, then that´s your choice. Whether you can be taken seriously that´s another thing.

Peace

Fair enough. Too often, the modus operandi among axe-grinders here seems to be 'I want to speculate. Inconvenient truth be damned!' followed shortly by 'Hey! Disprove me! Elsewise, I'm right, you're wrong!'. It does get old from time to time

Thanks for the clarification

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

Fair enough. Too often, the modus operandi among axe-grinders here seems to be 'I want to speculate. Inconvenient truth be damned!' followed shortly by 'Hey! Disprove me! Elsewise, I'm right, you're wrong!'. It does get old from time to time.

It´s called Sensationalism. That is what sells these days.

Thanks for the clarification

You are welcome.

Peace

We Here On ATS Are All "FAMA COMPUTERTATIS" Its What We Do...

Originally posted by network dude
I think you might have forgotten how you entered this thread, perhaps a refresher is in order.....

I think you might not have read at all "how I wrote in my entrance to this thread" I gave my opinion to the questions asked by the OP and then *Boom* I was ganged by 4-5 masons spouting smart@ss comments, stating I'm arrogant "supremely", that I need to seek help, that I am talking down as though I'm sitting on a throne and somewhere among all the nasty remarks, I'm expected to bow down and say oh yes you are all right, I'm wrong, thank you for so kindly educating me with brotherly love and respect as your fraternity declares you all to be

Originally posted by network dude
So here you are starting out saying that masons de-truth their members,and brainwash them, all the while, not having much of any idea what being a Freemason is. If you look at the thread title, you will see how incredible ironic your posts actually are.

How is my post response to OP "incredibly ironic"? He specifically asked the answers to be given by people "like me" Here are HIS questions in case.."you forgot"

My question to all of you who exercise these tactics is that what your god, prophet, savior, etc would/has encouraged you to do and if not why do you take such a tact?

Is it the relative freedom of anonymity that posting on the internet allows you?

I personally feel it is your weakness and insecurity with your own faith that you need to attack others who you perceive as not being the same as you.

Looks all rather arrogant to me! So the coin has two sides, get over and off the high horse trip and deal with the responses or simply don't ask questions! It is exactly what I've surmised from the get go, bait and hook. And not one person in this thread has shown anything other than that. You're all like a bunch of grizzly bears that asked to be woken up from your winters nap and growled and scowled at the person you asked to wake you up.

Originally posted by network dude
As has been said, if you start to ask questions respectfully, you will get all the respectful answers you want. But if you continue to sit atop your throne, we won't be able to see you what with bowing down and all. Respect=respect.

I really don't want to play games with you, you must indeed be papa bear. HE /THE OP ASKED the questions, I responded to those questions then was totally attacked from all sides by your F-team for my reasons/response. You are the one in the spot light here, you are technically on the throne, not me. Masons are known for their twisting and attempts to confuse the "opponent", I'm really not as ignorant as you suggest to Freemasonry. If one does not bow in thy presence, one is considered to be a threat and so you will trick them by saying they are acting like they are better, higher, lofty, arrogant etc...just as you've ALL done.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
The freemasons of this thread cannot discuss therefore I shant continue the conversation here.

Freemasons love this, they will never back down themselves, talk about lofty And when someone outside retreats, they love it, they consider it even more of a challenge and of course...they will bait us/you right back in and spin their little circles again and again. Try discussing these things with them one on one though, without their "team" an entirely unfamiliar playground for them.

Anyway...i know you all are nothing special, but it's fun to let you think you are. And I'm sure this tactic of "secrets and conspiracies" was all fed by the very organization that denies them, for all I know this is just a big game or part of one of their rituals. Tomorrow one of these dudes is going to be a step up in degree

Nighty night Masons and all your familiars.

The OP asks a invaluable question and I was hoping that we could maybe for once get some legitimate discussion going. Instead, we have freemasonry's detractors in this thread going hysterical and generally doing the forum equivalent of sticking their hands in their ears and saying "I CANT HEAR YOU!" over and over.

What amazes me most about this forum in particular is that unlike the rest of the site, one of the main topics of discussion are here and available to posters. You won't find a Illuminati member chatting you up in the conspiracy forum (because they don't exist...but if they did, they certainly wouldn't engage people on forums). Yet here we have the real thing. Real freemasons, with years of experience. And yes, even though degree numbers dont matter, even 33rd degree masons for those who are so obsessed with that.

But we cant even begin to have a conversation here. We can't even put one step forward. For every topic on masonry, within 3 posts we have left any sense of logic and reason behind and someone is claiming to know more than the masons themselves and telling them they are all rapists and satan worshippers.

What I've learned during my time on this forum is that it appears as though most of the people who love being negative about masonry aren't here for a gentlemanly discussion or debate - they are here to spread propaganda. They don't care what the truth is. The only thing they care about is getting you to believe like they do, facts and evidence be damed.

Freemasonry as an organization is not perfect. Nothing made from human hands ever will be. And I know of no mason who claims otherwise. The organization has much to improve upon. But those improvements are related to things like mending race relations in the lodges in the US south. Or fixing (or doing a clean break) with the Shrine. Or bringing up its members to value masonic philosophy more than they currently do. Those are the REAL issues. Those are the REAL problems. But instead, the anti-masons here spend all their time babbling about fantasies of Lucifer, masons running the country, etc. For people who claim to have so much concern for freemasonry and its members, they dont actually seem to focus on any if its real issues.