Religious Zealotry and its Inherent Hypocrisy Towards Masonry

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posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 08:32 AM
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You cannot debate with so-called Zealots deal with it and move along. No shame in your game as they say lol.. just dont expect us to shut up. We arent like you guys, we dont hang out in groups behind closed doors.




posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by HoneyBe
reply to post by HoneyBe
 


Well...Christians have every right to defend who or what they worship, they have proof beyond proof and have faith beyond faith (speaking on behalf or true Christians)

You see, this is the sort of statement that leaves me scratching my head. Faith doesn't require "proof". By its very definition, "proof' is anathema to "faith". If your "faith" requires "proof", it can't possibly be "faith" now can it?


Originally posted by HoneyBe
Christians have a Book they follow as their guide and their truth which ultimately is their reason for being labeled "Christians"

As do Jews, Sikhs, Muslims, etc; there a salient point in there somewhere?


Originally posted by HoneyBe
OK...so where is your proof that you do follow THE God?

See my earlier point about "faith"; it might be enlightening in its own way


Originally posted by HoneyBe
I personally don't think you're all in tune with one another because one Freemason will state firmly Freemasonry is not a Religion, but what you've just written as many do...shows that it is.

Is it his fault you don't parse the difference between "religion" and morality? There's no disconnect from the Freemason side of the equation.


Originally posted by HoneyBe
Do you see how this can confuse a non-mason? I'm not even too sure most Freemason's really even know what Freemasonry IS.

It isn't a religion; that much is an absolute certainty. It's a non-denominational moral fraternity. Does that help you at all?


Originally posted by HoneyBe
So it's hard to debate with a non-mason without enough evidence in yourself that what you know and believe is really what you "know and believe"

A lack of understanding on your part doesn't denote a lack of understanding on the part of Masons. I'm sorry you parse this disconnect differently

Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by FreedomEntered
reply to post by HoneyBe
 


Rothschild are Freemasons, Royals are freemasons - not all of them but quite a few. And suprise suprise, Prince William has married a Jewess, just when Israel is under the radar. Come on, arent there patterns to this?


Oh goody! A brownshirt! Haven't seen one of those here in over a week!


Any other 'exclusives' you're going to impart on your unsuspecting audience?


Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by OnTheLevel213
 

How can you expect, someone to ask an unloaded question, since only a certain amount of information is avaliable ?


No one asks whether any specific piece of information is available, though. They assume it isn't, when it probably is.


Based on that statement i have two options. The first option is that i take your word for it, and assuming that these few secrets, are on operational level, which outside of the secret society is of non importance. The second option would be to assume, that you cannot tell me those few secrets because you are hiding something under the disguise that those secrets are of not importance.


You forgot the third option: ask an honest question, and receive a response of either a detailed answer or, "I'm sorry, I can't talk about that."


I mean since those secrets are of non importance after all, why they cannot be disclosed ? . I hope you understand where i am getting it.


I do, and I hope I can explain. Think of the "faithful over a few things" concept in the Bible. When a man shows me that some handshakes and passwords, themselves fairly unimportant in the long run, are inviolably secret in his care, I know he can be trusted should I need to unburden myself of something far more personal.


And as i said before, and forgive me for repeating my self, part of it, the blame is on the Secret society itself. Otherwise wouldn´t be a Secret Society.


I'll accept that for anyone that labels themselves a speculative conspiracy theorist who doesn't want to be taken seriously. However, if you want to be taken seriously as a researcher or thinker, you have a duty to go beyond armchair speculation and actually ask questions of someone with firsthand experience.


Is it really only "Religious Zealotry" behind ?


Of course, anti-Masonry is not completely religious in nature. This thread is just about the religious element.



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by HoneyBe
reply to post by FreedomEntered
 


I just wrote pretty well the same thing!!
There is so much brainwashing in fact, they have to all come in and focus on one post here and each one has a very different way of responding and a very different truth,

Hmmmm.....kinda makes ya wonder who's brainwashed? The ones who respond differently or the ones that respond in lockstep? I'll leave that for others to judge.


Originally posted by HoneyBe
it is mass confusion, they are confused but believe they are not,

ORLY? We answer the same questions/assertions with similar responses and we're the confused ones?



Originally posted by HoneyBe
and then their confusion makes me so confused my head spins.

Methinks your confusion prefigured any additional confusion that you think was imparted by anyone one ATS let alone Masons


Originally posted by HoneyBe
I have spoken face to face on numerous accounts with men who are Freemason and even their demeanor and body language changes when they are questioned,

I guess that depends on the manner of the questions being asked. If you launch into a 'So...how long you been worshippin' the Devil' kind of 'question' then yes, I'm not the least little bit surprised that their demeanour might change. I'd have been surprised if it didn't


Originally posted by HoneyBe
they are not calm, they start babbling or rambling and making absolutely no sense at all and thus......

Oh, I've heard that sort of thing however in my experience such "babbling" and "rambling" originates from another vector than from the Masons. Just my experience; YMMV


Originally posted by HoneyBe
in the end I'm back to square one that they are clueless of everything, maybe even they are further than brain-washed and under mind control during their rituals...who knows really!

Do you? A lack of understanding on your part is not axiomatic of a lack of understanding on the part of others.


Originally posted by HoneyBe
Many Freemasons HAVE come out of Freemasonry and it is only then, they see the light but whilst in it, they are cloaked, just like their ritual, only thy are cloaked in darkness away from truth.

Oh yeah...that legion of Internet ex-Masons. They're everywhere alright!


Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by FreedomEntered
You cannot debate with so-called Zealots


Right. Those asking for evidence of claims are zealots; those who accept it because it confirms what they want to believe are not.



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by HoneyBe
Oh I can't wait!!


Originally posted by OnTheLevel213
You might have to. I get the feeling we disagree about far less than it seems.

Really? You think we only disagree in this area??



Originally posted by HoneyBeBy the way I wrote it is my personal view that money is the root of all evil, I did not use the Bible there FYI.



Originally posted by OnTheLevel213
Fair enough. Maybe I gots me a thread to go start.

I would not mind trying to find a decent ground with you somewhere, to learn from you. Really I promise you I am more here to learn and help my self than I'm here to teach anyone. So I am open for discussing other things with you, as long as there is respect between the "debaters" there is always opportunity to learn and change ones mind.


Originally posted by HoneyBeAnd your earlier response was an attempt to impress me, or someone or boast that Freemasonry donates 2mil to charities.



Originally posted by OnTheLevel213
Not necessarily to impress, just to show you that there are other, far larger sources of data out there.


I am aware of the money that is given to various charities via Freemasonry, it is impressive on a monetary scale, but not impressive on a scale enough to let outsiders know "hey, see...we are good men in here"



Originally posted by HoneyBe
If the best anyone can do is boast with how charitable they are by throwing money here and there, then it goes back to the Biblical passage that you're using money as a means to say you love.



Originally posted by OnTheLevel213
That's not what the Bible says about "the love of money". The love of money is expressed by keeping it to oneself. You don't give away things you love.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a bigger believer in love than in money. Love heals lots of things. Sadly, medical issues usually aren't one of them. For those, you need hospitals, research, logistics. For those, you need money..

Love of money is just that. No matter how any of us try and define it, it's the love above the money or the greed as you mentioned or the love that a person is willing to hand it out but no willing at all to hug someone. When money is replaced as love, then it goes back the Biblical passage. I do agree we all need money to survive in this world, but it is not the answer to solve the problems and can never replace love



Originally posted by HoneyBe
There was a Freemason on yesterday who had responded in a dignified manner with respect, I would listen to him.



Originally posted by OnTheLevel213
And he agreed that your response was arrogant.

No I disagree, he was very tactful and genuine in his way and his response to me. I've not seem him on here since then. This was a tactful response from you here, and I think if you understand my intent is not just to say you're all brainwashed, but more a genuine willingness to learn that you aren't. I don't wish that on anyone and it's very sinister of any group or person to even try to brainwash another person or people.



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 08:56 AM
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You are an occult . Known defination here " The occult (from the Latin word occultus "clandestine, hidden, secret") is "knowledge of the hidden". In common English usage, occult refers to "knowledge of the paranormal", as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable, usually referred to as science. The term is sometimes taken to mean knowledge that "is meant only for certain people" or that "must be kept hidden", but for most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences"

Apparently , you can only join if you believe in God and are a male. Although I know there are female fraternities or that mixed, but its not as common. This suggests your beliefs are for certain people " God believers" hmm.. kinda selective, no?!

If your arguement is that because its WRITTEN then it isnt hidden then this is wrong. Anything that someone does that I have not done is infact hidden to me. I cannot truely know how effecting for example a baptism is, or a circumcision etc until I have done this ritual myself. And intellectually derived knowledge and practiced knowledge are different things.

The vast majority of public wont do freemasonary rituals as you know. Therefore it is hidden, in a way.
The secret comes from being initiated in these unique rituals that take you to the next level of your spiritual journey.

The hidden is MEANT to be hidden, as you have suggested why cant we do things privately. And youre correct. You do have a right to do stuff privately. I made the comparison with witch covens they too, have secret meet-ups and keep rituals within the group. Equally the small parts of witches rituals that Ive seen appear to me to show alternative views, incomparison with the majority.

But then if someone comments or makes a conclusion about your activities then do not critisize them doing so.

I can read about the strange voodoo cults in Africas, all day. But unless I take their weirdo drugs and dance in circles at high speed, whilst calling up some entities, then I wont KNOW for sure how this system of thinking effects the person or their lives. So I can make a comment , my comment would be " Well they dont look like they are "in" reality, they look dissociative. They appear to be delluded" This is an opinion and a fair enough one. Im not stating this as fact however.

So I will say this one more time I am making opinions based on what Ive seen, read, certain facts I have about the fraternity, and from ex masons.

I dont spread this beliefs. Im not someone who promotes prejudice. Its up to the individual how they view another.
edit on 24-1-2013 by FreedomEntered because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by FreedomEntered
We see who someone worships by their actions. Words mean different things to different people. If a muslim bombs a building - I wont say that he worships God

On that much, we can agree. However it seems you're prepared to lump all Muslims (note the capital "M"; perhaps you're unmindful of the proper usage wrt proper names) together by the actions of a few who've strayed from the dictates of the Koran, is it not just as valid to criticise Christianity based on the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church? If not, why not?


Originally posted by FreedomEntered
- if God is intended to mean all that is good. No, Id say he worships some darker influence, I may even say Satan if I feel he was blinded by this.

I'd say that he is following someone with a particular earthly agenda who dangles the promise of afterlife riches to assuage those for who this life presents no especial hope. That dangler is the essence of evil


Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Thats because I am coming from my own belief system.

Lucifer worshippers in my view often form occults, Golden Dawn, Knights Templar , skulls and bones and so forth I regard to also be Luciferians.

Well, hello Humpty Dumpty! Glad to make your acquaintance. I've always envied that 'words mean precisely what I choose them to mean' ethos of yours

Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Aleicester Crowley, Quite a few presidents, the British Monarchs are/were Freemasons. They are primarily Materialists, this is why I think ritual is so important in Freemasonary. The acts are there as part of the matrix, to form a subtle brainwash technique that makes them believe they are improving. When really they are just as trapped as anyone else. Maybe if anything a tad escapist.


I'm sure you've been told this multiple times but I'll just remind you: Crowley wasn't a legitimate Mason. He got suckered and anti-Masons have been buying into his being suckered for a long time whenever it suits them to try to sucker someone else.

As for ritual, I have to assume that you share an equal distrust for ritual within the established faiths? If not, why not?

Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by HoneyBe
I believe you're all brain-washed and until you can prove to me otherwise...I will continue to believe that.

You're welcome to your opinion but outside of French territories, the Napoleonic Code doesn't apply. It falls to you to demonstrate YOUR point not others to disprove it. Otherwise, it would fall to you to disprove that you're a particularly advanced meerkat typing away on your keyboard.

See how sticky that wicket is?


Originally posted by HoneyBe
I kind of like being called "supremely arrogant" I think that's quite a compliment.

Why that doesn't surprise me, I don't know

Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:06 AM
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I dont lump muslims togeather. I hung out with muslims and saw what a mixed set of views and ways of living they actually have. I dont perscribe to the western lies about how they are all " terrorist" scheming looneys.

I have said I dont think the majority of Masons know what they are involved with. You call us outsiders the ignorant ones, but I believe that you too are ignorant of whom youre actually worshipping when you do these rituals. You are cogs in a wheel.
edit on 24-1-2013 by FreedomEntered because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by FreedomEntered
You cannot debate with so-called Zealots deal with it and move along. No shame in your game as they say lol.. just dont expect us to shut up. We arent like you guys, we dont hang out in groups behind closed doors.


No, I'm quite sure you don't. I'd be surprised if you hang out in any kind of group out-of-doors at all.

'Course, I could be wrong and reserve the right to be so

Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:13 AM
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Yes, Im not a follower . I cant be herded.



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by FreedomEntered
I dont lump muslims togeather. I hung out with muslims and saw what a mixed set of views and ways of living they actually have. I dont perscribe to the western lies about how they are all " terrorist" scheming looneys.

Nor do I. Like other religions, there are those with an agenda for which they will freely toss away youth while promising them afterlife riches unattainable on this plane. Christianity is not immune from such low behaviour either, though


Originally posted by FreedomEntered
I have said I dont think the majority of Masons know what they are involved with. You call us outsiders the ignorant ones, but I believe that you too are ignorant of whom youre actually worshipping when you do these rituals. You are cogs in a wheel.

But your hubristic nature demands you claim that you do (or at least as an outsider privy to nothing in particular have an inkling that years-and-decades-long Masons haven't cottoned to). Are you not able to parse that disconnect?

Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Yes, Im not a follower . I cant be herded.


I would suggest you exhibit a greater degree of herd-like mentality than I think you'd be comfortable in admitting. You're just part of the herd invisible.

Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:19 AM
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You really think in groups just because people grow up within it that they are privvy to what these groups are actually about? Your dreaming. You may have the hidden knowledge but because its so blimen hidden its very likely to be a little bit dodgy. You are away from mainstream remember.

The upper ranks know, particulary the elite upper ranks or the leaders of your fraternities. The rest will get drivel.
edit on 24-1-2013 by FreedomEntered because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by FreedomEntered
You really think in groups just because people grow up within it that they are privvy to what these groups are actually about? Your dreaming. You may have the hidden knowledge but because its so blimen hidden its very likely to be a little bit dodgy. You are away from mainstream remember.

The upper ranks know, particulary the elite upper ranks or the leaders of your fraternities. The rest will get drivel.


Yet somehow you know.

How came you to this 'knowledge' and why do you think it's the real deal as opposed to the usual anti-Masonic claptrap?

Fitz



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by HoneyBe
Really? You think we only disagree in this area??


No, but I don't think we're that far off on most other things.


I would not mind trying to find a decent ground with you somewhere, to learn from you. Really I promise you I am more here to learn and help my self than I'm here to teach anyone. So I am open for discussing other things with you, as long as there is respect between the "debaters" there is always opportunity to learn and change ones mind.


The problem is that your attitude, from the perspective of those you call "brainwashed", isn't very respectful.


I am aware of the money that is given to various charities via Freemasonry, it is impressive on a monetary scale, but not impressive on a scale enough to let outsiders know "hey, see...we are good men in here"


Okay. But (and I'm not apologizing) neither are the ten or so Masons in this thread a representative sample.


Love of money is just that. No matter how any of us try and define it, it's the love above the money or the greed as you mentioned or the love that a person is willing to hand it out but no willing at all to hug someone.


Masons Willing to Hug Someone


When money is replaced as love, then it goes back the Biblical passage.


But that passage doesn't say that. It says:


For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


It's explicitly about greed. You can extend that to your view in your personal philosophy (and I wouldn't call that unbiblical, necessarily), but it's not what the Bible says.


I do agree we all need money to survive in this world, but it is not the answer to solve the problems and can never replace love


Agreed.


Originally posted by OnTheLevel213
And he agreed that your response was arrogant.

No I disagree, he was very tactful and genuine in his way and his response to me.

His words:

Your patronization is what we think is arrogant. Your spiritual superiority complex is what we think is arrogant.



I've not seem him on here since then.


He serves in leadership roles within a statewide Masonic body, a statewide charity, and his own lodge, in addition to studying full-time and serving in the National Guard. I'm shocked he comes on here at all.


my intent is not just to say you're all brainwashed, but more a genuine willingness to learn that you aren't.


The problem is that "you're all brainwashed" is quite literally what you've said, and your "proof" is that we were "rude" to you when presented with an attitude I maintain is condescending.



posted on Jan, 24 2013 @ 09:47 AM
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I dont think anti-anything is clap-trap its a point of view, simply, that may be true or false depending on the evidence.

One needs quiet to know the truth.





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