Religion, Faith & Theology

I'll begin with a few excerpts from this announcement thread...
ALL MEMBERS READ - Moving Past Religion 101 and Staying on Topic

Venturing into this forum and participating in these discussions implies that you are interested in these topics.

We can't begin to truly discuss these topics if we're constantly arguing about if God is real or not.

Imagine discussing algebra while someone keeps interjecting that they still don’t believe in addition. The very reason that classes such as these have prerequisites is so new ground can be covered in the subject.

To sum things up. Let's stay on topic and allow discussions to take place without constant interference.

A lot of times, the first few posts on religious threads are usually by non-believers and say nothing other than ridicule / deny the subject of religion. These posts contribute NOTHING to the subject being discussed. While I don't mind long discussions on religious matters as long as there is substance or an interesting perspective, such hit-and-run posts are annoying and disruptive in nature, and overall simply ruins the decorum.

Here are some examples...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Can you imagine a non-believer in UFO's going over to the UFO section and making posts in threads dismissing outright the UFO phenomena as a hoax and the people who believe as "delusional"? I mean, its one thing question the evidence or theorizing on as to what it actually was... but to just outright deny their existence?

Now, I am not even saying one has to be a believer to participate in a thread in the religion and faith section... but if all they have to contribute is ridicule and "its all fake" kind of posts... and refuse to move beyond Religion 101... then there is a problem.

I kindly requests admins and mods to look into this.

Thanks.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I agree with you 100%. It is a waste of our time and a waste of space here to make a comment without offering logical reasons for either agreeing with a topic or disagreeing. I will attack thoughts I find absurd, but I will not attack a person for having those thoughts, and I will give my reasons for my stance.

What kind a kick do these people get out of posting irrelevant one-liners?

reply to post by jiggerj


I know you from some of your threads.
Even though we may not agree on certain subjects, I don''t recall seeing you barge into a thread, make a witty one-liner and leave.

There are some who do this.... and some who participate in a thread constructively.

Ive alerted your thread to staff for a review of the issue you bring up.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


They're called trolls, Skorp... just ignore 'em, or put wording in your OP like:

If your only response to this is "who cares" or "there's no God", save it -- I've heard your opinion before, and your sharing it contributes nothing.

I truly do not understand those who feel the need to incessantly pipe up with useless replies like that. People who disagree with me, wonderful, but people who just dismiss someone else's opinion so flippantly just shows intellectual immaturity and disrespect.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You are quite right.
I think the bad habit was encouraged by the way that deilberately controversial threads were being started by believers and non-believers as attacks on each other. The habit of controversy then spread over into threads on more specific topics.
I've tried to counter this development by bringing back the kind of thread which concentrates on a particular point or aspect of theology.
We need to be able to discuss the theology of a religion within the terms of that religion; e.g "freewill or predestination" within the terms of Christianity, or the exact details of reincarnation within the terms of Buddhism.

PS I've often thought that one factor in this development was the arrival of the "Recent Posts" page for the "off-topic" part of the forum. Previously, nobody would even see Theology posts unless they deliberately entered the Theology forum, which implied they were probably interested in Theology. Once there was a Recent Posts page, Theology threads would be seen by unbelievers, who would then start complaining that there were too many of them, or else come in to them to start trolling.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Here are some examples...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Those are perfect for religious people discussion where non-believers don't have to intervene... but there are baiting threads that folks in those fourms like to do.

Example.

"XXXXX is the only true region"
"Which is the true religion?"
"Nonbelievers has no moral"
"Only through faith you can be saved"
"You are all sinned"


i'm sorry but these threads are asking for onslaught. I don't use one-liners, unless its the joke forum.

Originally posted by luciddream
Those are perfect for religious people discussion where non-believers don't have to intervene... but there are baiting threads that folks in those fourms like to do.

i'm sorry but these threads are asking for onslaught.

If no one takes the bait, those threads die pretty quickly, so I'd say going in and yelling at the OP is pretty much a guarantee that not only will those types of threads last longer than they would otherwise, they will spawn more threads as people think they're getting a rise out of others.

reply to post by luciddream

i'm sorry but these threads are asking for onslaught.

Onslaught in terms of intelligent discussion = fine.
One or two-liners where somebody walks in, says "its all a fairy tale" and moves on = not fine.

The same should go for many kinds of threads, not just religious ones.

It would be nice if believers could have a discussion about their spirituality, without being insulted.

Let's see if I got this straight: you want the ATS staff to stop the skeptics from questioning the believers on any threads not specifically intended for doing so?

The defeats the purpose of this entire site. Without discussion between opposing viewpoints, the same old subforum broken records will continue to rehash boring ideas because there's no friction to light the fires of epiphany. Confrontation, when controlled, is a very effective tool.

I don't agree with what you're saying here. I understand the need to keep topics from derailing early on due to questioning fundamental elements, but such consequences show how uncertain the subject material is. It's an excellent reminder to not take anything as fact within that genre of discussion. It keeps in mind that the entire thing is speculation only.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


One or two-liners where somebody walks in, says "its all a fairy tale" or "it's all heretical satanic deception" are not conducive to further discussion. They are discussion-stoppers.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Go read his post again, since you apparently skimmed it the first time -- he's talking about dismissive and insulting "one liners", not about real criticism and dialogue.

reply to post by adjensen


Oh...right. In that case, I'd like to point out the Christian ATSers who like to post a line of scripture or bleat a few words of mantra, then disappear.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

Oh...right. In that case, I'd like to point out the Christian ATSers who like to post a line of scripture or bleat a few words of mantra, then disappear.

Same thing -- if it's minimal content and doesn't contribute in a useful way, it's an unnecessary post, though I'll point out that theists tend to be less insulting in their minimal posts than many anti-theists are. It's the minimalist, insulting posts that tend to derail threads -- I generally straight out ignore posts that are nothing but scripture.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Let's see if I got this straight: you want the ATS staff to stop the skeptics from questioning the believers on any threads not specifically intended for doing so?

'

Without discussion between opposing viewpoints, the same old subforum broken records will continue to rehash boring ideas because there's no friction to light the fires of epiphany.

Question religion all you want.
Even if you are unwilling to change your position, just try avoiding walking into a thread, making a witty one-liner...with no relevance to the actual subject ...and leaving.

Ask questions... all you want.
Don't just walk in, say "its all BS fairy tales, sky fairy blah blah" and move on.

It's a two way street as far as I see it.
This is a direct quote from a reply in a thread I created about choosing to take the religious oath in court instead of the non-religious affirmation, even though I do not believe in any gods:

Frankly I'm appalled that you don't believe in God ,you should be killed denying your creator.Hell is heating up for people like you.

It actually made me laugh to be honest and I dealt with it in an unemotional, non-inflamatory, and satisfactory manner. Applause for the Mod's who let it stay as well, the post was usefully quoted later in the thread to demonstrate some of the more passionately unreasonable views often expressed by religious zealots.

reply to post by grainofsand


Stuff like that just makes me so eager to consign my soul to that god's will, right?

/sarcasm.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Originally posted by Skorpoin
A lot of times, the first few posts on religious threads are usually by non-believers and say nothing other than ridicule / deny the subject of religion. These posts contribute NOTHING to the subject being discussed. While I don't mind long discussions on religious matters as long as there is substance or an interesting perspective, such hit-and-run posts are annoying and disruptive in nature, and overall simply ruins the decorum.

Here are some examples...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Can you imagine a non-believer in UFO's going over to the UFO section and making posts in threads dismissing outright the UFO phenomena as a hoax and the people who believe as "delusional"? I mean, its one thing question the evidence or theorizing on as to what it actually was... but to just outright deny their existence?

Now, I am not even saying one has to be a believer to participate in a thread in the religion and faith section... but if all they have to contribute is ridicule and "its all fake" kind of posts... and refuse to move beyond Religion 101... then there is a problem.

I kindly requests admins and mods to look into this.

Flagged!

Well said.

I’ve seen too many religious threads now, where the majority of the thread discussion, is dictated too, by the first post response; which invariable consists of this “God is not real” type of post. And unfortunately in many cases, the rest of the thread comments, tend to spiral out of control from there.

There’s nothing worse than starting a thread topic around the Bible, Religion and God etc and some guy waltzes in, and shouts “prove it”, “where’s the evidence of Gods existence” etc. Especially when there are other threads, which cater for such discussions, and if there’s a shortage, then they should create a thread themselves.

I think ATS should maybe consider a Skeptic vs Skeptic discussions/threads, Skeptic vs Believers threads, and Believers vs Believers discussing, with like-minded believer threads. Or perhaps even a God section for skeptics, and a God section for believers.


- JC