Trolls, Sock Puppets and Operation Earnest Voice

Just wondering how this whole troll rule works. Apparently we can get banned for calling someone a troll? Well how do you work that out when it's now a fact that we have Operation Earnest Voice/TrapWire, etc, and the US military are allowed to make hundreds of sock puppet accounts for forums, chat rooms, etc, to spread propaganda and screw up conversations/threads? Are ATS trying to tell us that we get banned for pointing out what look like sock puppet accounts? If so, aren't they actually helping those sock puppet accounts and the US military make things even worse?

See this for more : Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media

Quote from article :

The project has been likened by web experts to China's attempts to control and restrict free speech on the internet. Critics are likely to complain that it will allow the US military to create a false consensus in online conversations, crowd out unwelcome opinions and smother commentaries or reports that do not correspond with its own objectives.

The Centcom contract stipulates that each fake online persona must have a convincing background, history and supporting details, and that up to 50 US-based controllers should be able to operate false identities from their workstations "without fear of being discovered by sophisticated adversaries".

So if we can't say trolls, what about questioning, not accusing, if someone is a sock puppet? Because if we can't do that, we may as well just hand the site over to the US military already and let them cause as much chaos as they want. How can this site be trusted if we can't question those who are here with the intent of ruining it?

Check this too : Blue cabinet/Ntrepid

(Operation Earnest Voice contract was supposedly given to Ntrepid.)

Originally posted by robhines
So if we can't say trolls, what about questioning, not accusing, if someone is a sock puppet? Because if we can't do that, we may as well just hand the site over to the US military already and let them cause as much chaos as they want. How can this site be trusted if we can't question those who are here with the intent of ruining it?

Umm, well if they break the T&C you report them. That's how it works.

Or in your world, you'd out them and have a lynch mob trial... when the problem might simply be that you disagree with them.

Oh well.

If you can't handle made up things, how can you hope to handle real things.

The problem (imo) is that there are too many ignorant people on this site, too many people who think in terms of "them and us". So it is hard to know who is trolling etc.. and who is brainwashed beyond repair.

Infact I find that it is normally posts that contain extreme prejudice that gain the most stars.

ATS is a place for civil discussion. It should NEVER, EVER be personal.

15). Posting: You will not Post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate. You will not solicit personal information from any member. You will not use information gathered from this website to harass, abuse or harm other people.
...
16) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, libelous, defamatory, hateful, intolerant, bigoted and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

No form of name-calling is acceptable, be it "troll", "noob", "retard" or any derogatory word.

Accusations of "troll", "disinfo agent", "sock" leads to witch hunts. How would you like it if someone called you a "sock puppet" for XYZ agency, started a thread about you and scrutinizing each and every one of your posts - taking words and opinions of of context in order to prove that you are what they accuse you of?

The rules about name-calling are there to protect our members - you and me included. Always have. Always will.

Edit: If you have suspicions about a member, then you can report them to the staff. They will then look into it and are better equipped to come to a conclusion. Even so, on the Internet there is rarely a foolproof way of telling whether someone is a "baddy" or not.

Originally posted by winofiend
Umm, well if they break the T&C you report them. That's how it works.

Or in your world, you'd out them and have a lynch mob trial... when the problem might simply be that you disagree with them.

Oh well.

If you can't handle made up things, how can you hope to handle real things.

I don't want anything to do with "lynch mobs." You're clearly just twisting what I said. Also, how do you hope to report someone for breaking T&C when they're not actually doing that, but instead distorting the conversations within the rules?

Never mind me not being able to handle made up things, maybe you can't handle truth. If you could, maybe you'd see that the problems here are real.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
ATS is a place for civil discussion. It should NEVER, EVER be personal.

15). Posting: You will not Post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate. You will not solicit personal information from any member. You will not use information gathered from this website to harass, abuse or harm other people.
...
16) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, libelous, defamatory, hateful, intolerant, bigoted and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

No form of name-calling is acceptable, be it "troll", "noob", "retard" or any derogatory word.

Accusations of "troll", "disinfo agent", "sock" leads to witch hunts. How would you like it if someone called you a "sock puppet" for XYZ agency, started a thread about you and scrutinizing each and every one of your posts - taking words and opinions of of context in order to prove that you are what they accuse you of?

The rules about name-calling are there to protect our members - you and me included. Always have. Always will.

So what measures do you have in place to deal with real sock puppets like the ones from OEV then? Just wondering.

reply to post by winofiend


stop being a troll WinofRiend... xxx

*cough

everyone knows that trolls exist ... and trolls usually are so obvious...
they join up and immediately start attacking members/mods etc...

OR/ there is a topic and someone just joins up to spam it and derail it. They exist and I don't know too many People who have been banned for telling it like it is, or stating the obvious...

reply to post by robhines


See my edit above.

The staff don't go "hunting" for sock puppets either. As long as a member stays within the Terms and Conditions they may be Robert Mugabe or the King of Scotland for all we care.

reply to post by Gemwolf


oh gee, I didn't know you could be in trouble for name calling.

what about posting a little pic up of a troll?

Originally posted by Gemwolf
reply to post by robhines

 

See my edit above.

The staff don't go "hunting" for sock puppets either. As long as a member stays within the Terms and Conditions they may be Robert Mugabe or the King of Scotland for all we care.

Wow, I think that's pretty crazy, but you're the bosses, so fair enough! Thanks for helping clear it up anyway.

Originally posted by Thurisaz
reply to post by Gemwolf

 

oh gee, I didn't know you could be in trouble for name calling.

what about posting a little pic up of a troll?

Defeat trolls by keeping the topic on course and by getting all the stars.
calling them out only serves a troll purpose.

If you do bring up a picture of a troll or say there is trolling going on just don't mention any names, and don't drop hints either.. Just leave it for those who have eyes to see.

I know of certain accounts I watch. Having trained with all Psy Ops at FT Benning and FT Bragg, I know there must be a lot of internet control going on..

reply to post by Dustytoad


I agree. Cool that you got inside perspective.

Also I think people should study logical fallacies and learn how to identify them.
This will give us the real edge.

Ya know, you could have a real good thread just on the technical side of Earnest Voice. Where it originally came from, what they tie into, who runs the place, who REALLY runs the place and so on.

Me, I'm not in that chain of command. However, I can tell you the linked article is wrong, they're not INSIDE MacDill, they're in the spy civilian monitoring facility that SOCOM runs downtown.

Also, it's amazing, but the president of the company that works on this thing (Ntrepid) is a former DCIA. And the ties between him and the other first tiers that SOCOM runs are amazingly interesting.

Me, I won't touch this with a ten foot pole, since I nominally work for these guys as a second tier. But should anyone want to put in the footwork, it is a very interesting network of connections.

edit to add: by "these guys" I mean SOCOM out of MacDill. Not Ntrepid.

Originally posted by Dustytoad
I know of certain accounts I watch. Having trained with all Psy Ops at FT Benning and FT Bragg, I know there must be a lot of internet control going on..

Ugh. CA/PO. You will never see a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Originally posted by Bedlam
Ya know, you could have a real good thread just on the technical side of Earnest Voice. Where it originally came from, what they tie into, who runs the place, who REALLY runs the place and so on.

Me, I'm not in that chain of command. However, I can tell you the linked article is wrong, they're not INSIDE MacDill, they're in the spy civilian monitoring facility that SOCOM runs downtown.

Also, it's amazing, but the president of the company that works on this thing (Ntrepid) is a former DCIA. And the ties between him and the other first tiers that SOCOM runs are amazingly interesting.

Me, I won't touch this with a ten foot pole, since I nominally work for these guys as a second tier. But should anyone want to put in the footwork, it is a very interesting network of connections.

Totally agreed. There's a lot of connections when it comes to this that even looking at the surface you can sense the labyrinth a little further below. Telecomix have done a good job on their site, but would love to see others also have a go at it. After the whole TrapWire craze that was going on not so long back there's probably quite a few already at it, it's probably just a matter of tracking down the other researchers and seeing what they have.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by Dustytoad
I know of certain accounts I watch. Having trained with all Psy Ops at FT Benning and FT Bragg, I know there must be a lot of internet control going on..

Ugh. CA/PO. You will never see a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Without getting in trouble I just wanted to expand on this a little, so that people know what you are saying. I was not psy ops, but that's getting too gray, so yea..

Link

Psychological Operations (PSYOP)

PSYOP induces or reinforces foreign attitudes and behaviors favorable to the originator’s objectives by conducting planned operations to convey selected information to foreign audiences to influence their emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of foreign governments, organizations, groups, and individuals.

Civil Affairs (CA)

CA facilitates military operations and consolidates operational activities by assisting commanders in establishing, maintaining, influencing, or exploiting relations between military forces and civil authorities, both governmental and non-governmental, and the civilian population in a friendly, neutral, or hostile area of operation.

If people think about this and how propaganda is not illegal... Well...

reply to post by robhines


Never forget to toss in SRI.

Not long ago I spilled a long odd story to a very well known online military investigative editor. I couldn't get enough verifiable details to him for him to run with the story, but in the investigation it turned out I had worked for SRI in the '90s through a cutout. The chain was, SOCOM had contracted SRI, who contracted "another guy" who is both SOCOM and SRI, who contracted me through a college foundation to do "stuff". I knew of the SOCOM->college foundation link but wasn't aware at the time that SRI was in the middle somewhere.

This guy was also instrumental in building the spy civilian monitoring facility downtown. Which also houses the OEV project. Former Agency wonks tie all of them together. What a small world, I suppose.

edit to add: I lost a post in there somewhere. To dustytoad: the fact you know what a ca/po is is a nice bonafide.

From our point of view, CA was where you went if you had an injury that needed some major rest time before you could return to full-on duty. Sort of like the Island of Injured Charlies. Dusty, don't translate that one, if you please.

reply to post by robhines


the problem is that in the minds of many on ATS ,"Troll "=`any one who does not accept my assertion`

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
reply to post by robhines

 

the problem is that in the minds of many on ATS ,"Troll "=`any one who does not accept my assertion`

Yeah that's also a problem too, agreed.

Have actually been thinking of making a post for my site about all this anyway, if I do I'll cross post it onto here too for a thread, and link it from here when it's done.