Work Out your own Salvation with Fear and Trembling - The Secret to the Illusion

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Okay, so if Jesus didn't die that means we wouldn't be alive right now? .....

What about the billions of years before Jesus? Or is the Earth only 6,000 years old? Seems to me like life went on just fine before Jesus got here. If you believe that god came to tiny tiny tiny old Earth in order to save us by sacrificing himself to himself then you need to actually think about that. Our planet isn't even a speck of dust compared the our galaxy, much less the entire universe.

You keep quoting Paul, but you fail to see that he is the original antichrist, he killed followers of Jesus then turned around and started dictating EVERYTHING after never even meeting Jesus during his ministry. The first time we hear about Jesus wanting to be worshiped is from Paul, not Jesus himself. That's not strange to you at all? I think you put too much trust into men just because they're in your favorite book.

I believe Paul plagiarized some of Jesus' words and called them his own in order to trick people into believing he had the holy spirit. He never had the holy spirit and his vision of Jesus is based completely on hearsay. Why didn't Jesus come to him before he killed everybody?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


The good news is what I put forward in the OP. We don't know God or the Son yet. A second thing, not mentioned in the op, is the common misconception about Genesis 1 and 2. There are seemingly two creation stories. This is not the case. Genesis 1 is the image being created by the Elohim. Genesis 2 is the Earth being created by YHVH. Before Adam (man with sentience), we don't know what came before. According to Genesis one, 6 days transpired. In the opening of Genesis 2, we have a day of rest. From there, to Revelation, seven MORE days go by. Right now, we are literally at day 13. If we go by the 1000 years is a day theme, then 13,000 years have passed.

There is yet one more consideration. Time dilatation on a spiral curve would explain the above timeline according to 14 billion years. If you have Netflix, watch the movie Genesis Code. What I refer to is completely explained there. As we approach the last day, time will be at its fastest. To see this clearly, consider a winding staircase. No matter where you are on the steps, what came before and what comes next seems smaller than where you currently are. In reality, there is more behind and ahead. Time and space are not different things. It's time/space. They are both relative.

As for Paul, you fail to see why Christ spoke the words he spoke. There is no paradox. Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, stated what it would take for someone to please God. It's a work WE cannot do. Christ fulfilled this for us, just as Paul states. If we could do it ourselves, then the work of Christ was unnecessary.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


So 13,000 years have passed and the reason it LOOKS like 14 billion years is because of a time spiral vortex thingamajigger that cannot be proved to exist except if you accept it? You're really stretching it with that part. So time has sped up from 13,000 all the way to 14 BILLION years? How does that work? Looks like you're just making stuff up or accepting already made up stuff so you can keep on believing the bible is 100% right. As long as it keeps the bible right, you'll accept it, right? Even if there is no substantial evidence to back it up.

Personal salvation is the ONLY salvation there is. Jesus didn't come to die for our sins, he came to spread a certain message in order to help us move forward as a species. The only problem was that his message of EVERYONE being one with god (not just himself) really ticked off the people who ruled at the time, so he was killed for spreading the truth. His death was not his focus, his message was.

Paul was a murderer and liar, but if you choose to believe him ONLY because he's in the bible, go for it.

Enoch, do you have a thread on the immaculate conception? I'm interested to get your take on it.

I've been reading your threads as I see them, and they do make sense to me but I have to twist them into metaphor and apply it to what I see going on. It all fits together nicely, so can't be too far from the multidimensional nature the bible is written in. I think it's called syncretism, all subjects mergeing into one.

Syncretism /ˈsɪŋkrətɪzəm/ is the combining of different (often seemingly contradictory) beliefs, often while melding practices of various schools of thought. Syncretism may involve the merger and analogising of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths.

en.wikipedia.org...

It's called the stretching factor of the universe. I don't expect you to understand this. Why should you? It's complicated until someone explains it to you in simple terms. When I said time dilation, I was referring to the staircase metaphor I used before. Time and space are one thing. The video below, along with the genius who puts it in terms we can understand, is an easy way for you to see clearly. I don't expect you to get it the first time you hear it. Further, I am not some simple fundi Christian lacking a background on these subjects. Consider it from a mind greater than you and me combined--Gerald Schroeder.

When you get the degrees that Gerald Schroeder has, you can contradict his theory. Faith cannot be a fact, only what is most evident. Axioms in science are the same by the way. Do some research on this and you will discover that it IS the most evident way of seeing both the Biblical narrative and the scientific understanding of what can only be evident. Science has NO answers beyond what can be gathered from the ancient narratives we possess. Take away the biblical clues and those coming from Hebrew mysticism and you are left with far more questions. Allowing your pride to be placed behind your reason and a different picture emerges. Again, you can ignore the evidence and remain ignorant or you can see what is most evident. Both science and the Bible match. All ALL times in our history, the Bible has taken the higher axiom and handed it to science.

Gerald Schroeder

"Gerald Schroeder is a scientist with over thirty years of experience in research and teaching. He earned his Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctorate degrees all at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, with his doctorate thesis being under the supervision of physics professor Robley D. Evans. This was followed by five years on the staff of the MIT physics department prior to moving to Israel, where he joined the Weizmann Institute of Science and then the Volcani Research Institute, while also having a laboratory at The Hebrew University. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics.

Schroeder's formal theological training in biblical, talmudic and kabalistic interpretation includes fifteen years of study under the late Rabbi Herman Pollack, Rabbi Chaim Brovender and Rabbi Noah Weinberg, of blessed memory." LINK

My Thread on the Subject

All of these videos are worth watching if you truly want to deny ignorance.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

So 13,000 years have passed and the reason it LOOKS like 14 billion years is because of a time spiral vortex thingamajigger that cannot be proved to exist except if you accept it? You're really stretching it with that part.

So time has sped up from 13,000 all the way to 14 BILLION years? How does that work? Looks like you're just making stuff up or accepting already made up stuff so you can keep on believing the bible is 100% right. As long as it keeps the bible right, you'll accept it, right? Even if there is no substantial evidence to back it up.

Personal salvation is the ONLY salvation there is. Jesus didn't come to die for our sins, he came to spread a certain message in order to help us move forward as a species. The only problem was that his message of EVERYONE being one with god (not just himself) really ticked off the people who ruled at the time, so he was killed for spreading the truth. His death was not his focus, his message was.

Paul was a murderer and liar, but if you choose to believe him ONLY because he's in the bible, go for it.

edit on 23-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Okay, I think I know what you mean with the staircase and time dilation. You're saying that the staircase represents time and when you look up it looks like the staircase gets smaller and smaller? How does that relate to time dilation in reference to moving forward in time? The illusion of the staircase is only because of perspective, time dilation has to do with relativity.

If you're just standing at the bottom of the staircase then you're stuck in time, but once you start moving through time (up the staircase) you'll see that if you pick a point and walk up to it, it will be the same size as the point where you picked it a flew flights below.

Plus, time dilation is based on velocity and the differences are very very minute, even after 13,000 years, the difference would still not equal 14 billion years, so it's nonsensical in my opinion.




ETA: Did the math and in order for the universe to be 13,000 years old but look 14 billion because of time dilation, every year that has passed would have had to jump forward 1,076,923 years because of time dilation. I don't think that's a logical assumption.

With the stairs, I am only showing that time and space are relative by distance, mass and frame of reference. Since a typical staircase is not a sufficient distance to measure a change of time rate, then it's only a metaphor for the larger context. When you see the light of a star, you are looking at the past by billions of years in some cases. That light originated with the star, yet the stretching of that light by relation distorts the view we possess of it. We are not looking with eyes that can see the true picture. Likewise, when the sun is moving, the planets are spiraling around the sun, not moving in a circle.

If we are speaking of the mathematics of the topic, Gerald Schroeder states that he holds the mathematics and has done the calculations. If you watch the first video in the series, you can see how he can make the statement. Consider the first video linked below.

Also, keep in mind that for every set of lower axioms you posses, there is a unifying axiom above that resolves paradox. We are touching the edges of a larger axiom here. None of us possess the true intellect to see this with one mind. We can, however, use metaphor to match our current intellect with what can be seen from the edges of what is evident. When we do look this way, the Bible stands there above us saying, come on up. It's always there above us showing us how very wrong we are. As in the example I used above with the sun casting a tent and drawing the planets along in a vortex, this is what the Bible has stated all along.

Isaiah 40:22

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

What is the magnetosphere in relation to shielding us from the wilderness? It's a tent.

Listen to Psalm 104. Do you hear the science in it?

What did God say to Job from the Vortex?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Okay, I think I know what you mean with the staircase and time dilation. You're saying that the staircase represents time and when you look up it looks like the staircase gets smaller and smaller? How does that relate to time dilation in reference to moving forward in time? The illusion of the staircase is only because of perspective, time dilation has to do with relativity.

If you're just standing at the bottom of the staircase then you're stuck in time, but once you start moving through time (up the staircase) you'll see that if you pick a point and walk up to it, it will be the same size as the point where you picked it a flew flights below.

Plus, time dilation is based on velocity and the differences are very very minute, even after 13,000 years, the difference would still not equal 14 billion years, so it's nonsensical in my opinion.

edit on 23-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

ETA: Did the math and in order for the universe to be 13,000 years old but look 14 billion because of time dilation, every year that has passed would have had to jump forward 1,076,923 years because of time dilation. I don't think that's a logical assumption.

edit on 23-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Wifibrains

Enoch, do you have a thread on the immaculate conception? I'm interested to get your take on it.

The key is this verse:

Luke 1:35 Holy Spirit will come (epeleusetai epi se) upon you [Mary] and power of the Most High will overshadow you.

The Spirit to me is the Consciousness of God. What is the consciousness? In the Trinity, we have three aspects of God. From a physics perspective, this is what I see in the Trinity.

Father is Light and Prima Materia

Son is Word / Wave / Law

Holy Spirit is consciousness.

As an expression of the nature of the Son, WORD is information. DNA is that expression of word in material form. For light to be conscious, it would need to be aware. Are you aware? Yes. Then you have consciousness and Spirit. Are you light, both particle and wave? Yes. Matter is a duality of both. The observer collapses the indeterminate wave function of wave to make particle. This is a known phenomenon by our current understanding of science.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

We are created in the Image of the Trinity. Light is both particle and wave and possesses Spirit. It's a trinity, although science currently leaves out the Spirit (Blasphemy against the Spirit). By doing this, it denies the potential of light to act on Word by collapsing a wave function unknown to mankind. Is God an observer? Then he can collapse wave function.

What is DNA? DNA is the WORD that is contained in the seed. Consider the acorn. Is the 75 foot oak tree locked within the acorn? Is the oak tree the acorn or is the acorn the oak tree? Neither. The Word inside the acorn is both. When the Spirit came upon Mary, it overshadowed (Covered completely) her being with God. What potential does the Spirit of God have over the Word?

Is the Egg of Mary Jesus, or is Jesus the Word?

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

We have a pretty good idea what relation Jesus has as the Word to physics. What we don't know is what the Father is. None of us know, even Christians.

Consider what I say here in this Thead.

Luke 10:22, "All things are delivered (revealed) to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the son, and he to whom the son will reveal him."

None of us know God or the Son. We only know a glimmer off the edge.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


So you agree that it takes light billions of years to reach our eyes but the universe is only 13,000 years old? That doesn't make any sense. What do you think is after this life and how are we supposed to get there? Do you believe that having faith that Jesus rose from the dead is the only ticket into this afterlife?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

So you agree that it takes light billions of years to reach our eyes but the universe is only 13,000 years old? That doesn't make any sense. What do you think is after this life and how are we supposed to get there? Do you believe that having faith that Jesus rose from the dead is the only ticket into this afterlife?

It makes sense because of time dilation. If you leave the Earth at light speed for 10 years and return, 1000 years pass on Earth, but you are only 10 years older. Why is that? Does that make sense? For the same reason that you will be older if you travel faster, relative to others, a shorter amount of time here on Earth passes while the universe speeds along away from us. It's relative and relativity is the reason time/space is not time and space. Your frame of reference is from a perspective of your place here in relation to other things around you that are traveling with you. Space/Time is no like that. What is stated in Genesis is from God's perspective.

Faith is belief. I have a thread on salvation from the perspective of collapsing wave function. You can only collapse the wave function that you are aware of. Faith is the awareness of God. Without faith, there is no salvation to collapse. You can't do it on your own.

See the thread on this topic: Quantum Mechanics of Salvation

reply to post by EnochWasRight


The ray of light still took billions of years to reach us though. We're not talking about from the light's perspective, we're talking about from ours. The light didn't leave the star 13,000 years ago only for it to take billions of years to get here, that doesn't make sense.

You're saying that since it took less time from the perspective of the light that means the light perspective is ours. No, the light, from our perspective, took billions of years to get here, meaning billions of Earth revolutions ago, not 13,000 revolutions.

Originally posted by Wifibrains
Enoch, do you have a thread on the immaculate conception? I'm interested to get your take on it.

I've been reading your threads as I see them, and they do make sense to me but I have to twist them into metaphor and apply it to what I see going on. It all fits together nicely, so can't be too far from the multidimensional nature the bible is written in. I think it's called syncretism, all subjects mergeing into one.

Syncretism /ˈsɪŋkrətɪzəm/ is the combining of different (often seemingly contradictory) beliefs, often while melding practices of various schools of thought. Syncretism may involve the merger and analogising of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths.

en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 23-1-2013 by Wifibrains because: (no reason given)

Not quote. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way. None other. Are there truths that we must find in all religions? Yes. God has been in all seven continents. He works with all of humanity and always has. The sick need a savior, not the well. Christ is the ONLY answer for the fallen. The Bible makes it clear there are some who are already Sons of Light. We are here to influence the Sons of Darkness. Christ is the ONLY way to the Father.

See this thread on the topic of the Angel of Light and the Angel of Darkness and the role they play in the world: Eyes Wide Open

Paradoxically, do we know the Father or Son? No. Note even the Christian. We are all here by faith right now and the hope that produces must be for the betterment of others over self. Love is the key. Christ is the name that personifies this agape love. There is NO other name we can take. What is in a name? Character. If we take the name and not the character, it is in vain.

Is there a higher truth than love, even for enemies? No. Can you find a higher truth than Christ preached? No. The name is the character and the character is the Living Word.

No to synchritism for me. Yes to valuing others and their unique perspectives on truth. Wind all truth to the root and you arrive aback at Christ, the name above every name.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


If the Earth is only 13,000 years old, then why are there dinosaur fossils that date back millions of years ago and rock formations billions of years ago? The Earth itself has been rotating around the sun at the same velocity and distance for billions of years, meaning the Earth would not date back billions of years if in fact it is only 13,000 years old. Our "relativity" has stayed constant from our perspective for billions of years now, meaning the time dilation of the body of the Earth itself has stayed constant, which means if the Earth was only 13,000 years old then the dating would be consistent with that, but it's not even close.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY way

You had to spoil it........what about Buddha? And all the others? Don't get me wrong, Christ is a way, not the only way. Christ is a state of being, and his teachings are the way. Christ taught to let the ego go and follow love, yet devout Christians still think they are the only ones with a ticket to heaven. That's hardly practicing the preach.

If god is all loving, benevolent being, why would he care about religions? He has no ego so why would he want to be worshiped? This is man using the book for control, pulling you out of yourself, waiting for the external saviour while passing round a collection plate.

To be honest I was hoping for More of a scholarly reply, but you seem to have just tried to preach to me. Where has EWR gone? Please, live and let live. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just sharing my thoughts on the bible as you are, but you seem to be adamant that your truth is the only truth. As if the book has no other meaning.....you must see the ignorance in your stance.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your interpretations, as I think it's written in a way to have multiple meanings, possibly different meanings for different psyches.

reply to post by Wifibrains


Christ on his cross and Buddha under his tree are equivalent symbols. Christ-consciousness and Buddha-consciousness are equivalent terms for different cultures, imo. They are different fingers pointing to the same moon.

It's a pity that fundamentalists can't see that, isn't it. They get hung up on the finger... that is to say they get trapped in the metaphor.

reply to post by BlueMule


Exactly, Krishna and christs teaching are virtually identicle, as is the symbology and dates. The only diference is cultural really. Yet jesus is the only way

Was his name even jesus? Christ? It's the teachings that should be paid attention too, not the personifications.

Originally posted by Wifibrains
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Exactly, Krishna and christs teaching are virtually identicle, as is the symbology and dates. The only diference is cultural really. Yet jesus is the only way

Was his name even jesus? Christ? It's the teachings that should be paid attention too, not the personifications.

edit on 24-1-2013 by Wifibrains because: (no reason given)

Exactly... so when someone says 'Jesus is the only way', what they are really saying is my cultural terminology, my tribe is the only way. Localized tribalistic us-vs-them thinking is not compatible with enlightened thinking.

Maybe the OP doesn't mean to say that and if so then he needs to be more prepared to use terms that have cross-cultural currency.

Religious people in general really need to spend time studying comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism to gain more cross-cultural insight and tolerance, rather than just focusing on studying their local prefered religion year after year after year. Then they can learn to see God in all cultures, all religions, all people.

"If you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all." - Siri Singh Sahib