Agnostic = Nonsense

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by adjensen

 

You can believe in a god and not be a theist – you can be a deist, in fact you can dismiss bible god and allah and all the other book/revelation type religions and there by be an atheist (not any kind of theist) and still believe in a god

Good grief, why is this so hard to understand?

To be a theist is to believe in one or more gods. You cannot be an "atheist Deist", that's a contradiction in terms.

If you are a Deist, you are a theist, period.

"How many gods are there, none, or more than none?"

a) None -- you're an atheist
b) More than none -- you're a theist
c) "I have no opinion" -- you're an agnostic

To make it absolutely clear: Theism/Atheism/Agnosticism have NOTHING to do with what religion you are.

reply to post by adjensen


Adjensen is right, if you believe in a god then you are NOT an atheist. An atheist is one who lacks belief in god(s).

Theism is the belief in God(s). Theism has many sub-categories such as poly-theism, mono-theism, heno-theism, deism, pantheism, transtheism, suitheism.

Gnosticism has to do with KNOWLEDGE.

You can be a gnostic theist (someone who BELIEFS in god and also think they KNOW god exists).

You can be an agnostic theist (someone who BELIEVES in god but doesn't know for sure if god exists).

You can be a gnostic atheism (one who claims to believe AND KNOW there is no god)

or an agnostic atheism (one who does not believe in god but admit they don't know for sure there isn't one).

[Adjensen's response was pretty good but I wanted to point out that there is a difference between belief (theism) and knowledge (gnosticism) ]

reply to post by arpgme

or an agnostic atheism (one who does not believe in god but admit they don't know for sure there isn't one).

Thanks for your above post on the delineation on the terms.

I fall into the one I quoted.

reply to post by adjensen


Theism:
There’s a god but its one that has given a revelation of its existence to its creation so in Christianity there’s the bible

So if you don’t believe in the bible story or the quran or the rest of that then you are an atheist – right?

Deism
There’s a god (a creator) but no revelation about its self to its creation (you are supposed to work it all out for your self sort of thing)

So how about something like


Or maybe the universe is just the demo mode on someone’s Play station infinity

Or what about something along these lines

reply to post by Wonders


Just finished reading your thread "God of wonders" (thanks for sharing it btw). However, it didn't tell me how you know God. In your story, you only talk about "believing" and having "great faith". Your experiences help confirm your faith, but what knowledge of God have you obtained?

Don't get me wrong, I am a true believer of God and have been all my life. I was born and raised Roman Catholic and went to bible school. I did however have a loss of faith in the church when I learned about it's origins and false doctrines, but I remain faithful to God. What I was trying to explain is that there is a difference between Knowing and Believing. I myself have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit affecting my life many times. However, it's only my belief that it was the Holy Spirit affecting me since it could have been my own delusion brought on by the belief itself.

People have the ability to do a lot of things or make strange things happen when they believe in something enough. I have heard some say that it's our belief in God that makes him real, but I do not agree nor disagree, because I do not know anything for sure.

Back to my original conclusion: I do not think we can know the true nature of anything. We can only use ours or other's experiences to help confirm what we believe or think is true. This does not go against God's wishes for it's humbling for ourselves to admit that, "though I do not know anything with certainty, I put my faith into your hands lord for only you are righteous and all knowing".

Based on what the bible tells us, Lucifer and his fallen Angels are cursed for knowing God and turning away from him. Yet blessed are those who do not know, but by the merit of faith alone seek God's favor.

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by adjensen

 

Theism:
There’s a god but its one that has given a revelation of its existence to its creation so in Christianity there’s the bible

So if you don’t believe in the bible story or the quran or the rest of that then you are an atheist – right?

NO!!!!

What is wrong with you? Believing or not believing in the Bible, Koran, or any other religion has nothing to do with atheism.

If you are a Deist, then your belief system is theism, and your religion is Deism.

It makes no difference, whatsoever, what the details of your religion is, whether Christianity, Islam, Deism, Voodoo, something you make up or anything else -- if you believe that there are more than zero "gods" in reality, you are a theist.

If you believe that there are zero, you are an atheist.

A Diest cannot be an atheist any more than a square can be a circle -- they are a contradiction in terms.

reply to post by adjensen


Sooooo.....if I believe that I'm God that would make me a theist, right?

Is delusionalism already a religion?

If not, I'm claiming it right here and will hence forth call myself a delusionist. Anybody interested in showing up for church next Sunday...don't bother, we're closed!

Peace

PS: love the way you explained it.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by adjensen

 

Sooooo.....if I believe that I'm God that would make me a theist, right?

Yep -- belief system = theism, religion = Narcissism

reply to post by adjensen


The definition of Deism

Deism ( i/ˈdiː.ɪzəm/[1][2] or /ˈdeɪ.ɪzəm/) is the belief that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of God, accompanied with the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge

en.wikipedia.org...


deism theism

reply to post by racasan


Since you seem to like Wikipedia so much, you could also have looked up what theism means there:

Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists. (Source)

Then looked about two inches below that, seen the heading "Types" and a few inches below that, seen "Deism" as a type of theism.

deism theism

I never said they were the same thing -- I said, and Wikipedia and any informed person agrees, that Deism is a form of theism.

reply to post by adjensen


yes its says
Deism

Main article: Deism

Deism is the belief that at least one deity exists and created the world, but that the creator(s) does/do not alter the original plan for the universe.[16]

Deism typically rejects supernatural events (such as prophecies, miracles, and divine revelations) prominent in organized religion. Instead, Deism holds that religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources reveal the existence of a supreme being as creator.[17]

so apart from the god bit it has nothing in common with theism and deist dismiss the bible ect - and I would think its fair to say they dismiss the main points of theism so if they aren't theists the must be (a)theists - right?

Originally posted by racasan
so apart from the god bit it has nothing in common with theism and deist dismiss the bible ect - and I would think its fair to say they dismiss the main points of theism so if they aren't theists the must be (a)theists - right?

"Apart from the god bit"?!?!?!

THAT'S WHAT THEISM IS!!!! THAT'S ALL THEISM IS!!! You can't "dismiss the main points of theism", because there's only ONE point -- the existence of at least one god.

Theism has NOTHING to do with the Bible!!! You can't be a Deist without being a theist, just like you can't be a Muslim, Hindu, Christian, snake handler, practicer of voodoo or any other religion in the world without being a theist.

Sorry for yelling, but good grief. This isn't rocket science.

reply to post by adjensen


But that would depended on the definition of god

For a deist if it turned out that a scientist called Collin did a lab experiment that started the big bang then as far as the deist was concerned Collin might be considered god – right?

Jewish wizards in magic gardens with magic fruit and talking snakes = theism

Rational explanation for everything but with an intelligence involved (no talking donkeys or unicorns or any of that magic stuff)=deism

reply to post by racasan


Yeah, I give up.

You want to make up your own definitions of universally accepted words, knock yourself out. Just be prepared to be called an idiot by pretty much everyone when you claim to be an "atheist Deist."

reply to post by iSHRED

Originally posted by iSHRED
So if the existence of God is unknowable, how can you know that? If God doesn't reveal His traits to you and plays no roll in your life nor communicates with you, how can you say you do know of His trait of unknowablility. You can't and your speculating.

However on the other hand, if God does reveal His traits to you, then of course you know Him, you sought Him and He responded therefore proving His existence (in a way that others won't understand).

I agree, because everyone has at least one, or both feet in the agnosticism camp, regarding either their belief, or non-belief in God; As for those who are purely “agnostic”, they are essentially non-believers, at that specific moment in time. In other words, because “agnostics” don’t know what to believe, they can be cancelled down, to that of an “unbeliever” IMO.

It’s only when God reveals himself too you, that you move out of the “Agnostic”, “Agnostic Atheist” and “Agnostic theist” camps all together. This happens either through divine grace from God, or Gnosis of God.


- JC

Imo there is nothing to prove a GOD, or not. Maybe we were seeded here by a benevolent alien race after we screwed it up on Mars. I also can't disprove the possible existence of a being that could create reality before it happens. That's Agnosticism my friend. Deists have theirs. Atheists do too. Agnostics are, "Stop arguing guys and lets see some voluble fact."

Originally posted by iwan2ski
reply to post by Wonders

 

Just finished reading your thread "God of wonders" (thanks for sharing it btw). However, it didn't tell me how you know God. In your story, you only talk about "believing" and having "great faith". Your experiences help confirm your faith, but what knowledge of God have you obtained?

Don't get me wrong, I am a true believer of God and have been all my life. I was born and raised Roman Catholic and went to bible school. I did however have a loss of faith in the church when I learned about it's origins and false doctrines, but I remain faithful to God. What I was trying to explain is that there is a difference between Knowing and Believing. I myself have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit affecting my life many times. However, it's only my belief that it was the Holy Spirit affecting me since it could have been my own delusion brought on by the belief itself.

People have the ability to do a lot of things or make strange things happen when they believe in something enough. I have heard some say that it's our belief in God that makes him real, but I do not agree nor disagree, because I do not know anything for sure.

Back to my original conclusion: I do not think we can know the true nature of anything. We can only use ours or other's experiences to help confirm what we believe or think is true. This does not go against God's wishes for it's humbling for ourselves to admit that, "though I do not know anything with certainty, I put my faith into your hands lord for only you are righteous and all knowing".

Based on what the bible tells us, Lucifer and his fallen Angels are cursed for knowing God and turning away from him. Yet blessed are those who do not know, but by the merit of faith alone seek God's favor.

That's strange.

Originally posted by Wonders

Hi, thanks for taking the time to ask.
Can God be knowable? Yes.

According to the bible, I do not know God personally.

Sinners do not know God personally, frankly I don't have the motivation to dig up scripture that says so, and I don't have the time to show you all the places in the bible that describe God. You think that people are blessed for not knowing God and that's fine, he blesses both the righteous and the unrighteous, but unrighteous people do not know him personally and they will not be given eternal life.
My question to you is this, why go through seminary? Are people not smart enough to come to their own conclusions about what the bible says or do they have to be taught all the pertinent stuff that'll help them make money through christians? Why not rely on the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth? I'm of the opinion that one doesn't need college credits in order to know God personally.
Looking at your response, I have one question I'd really like for you to answer.
When the bible says that the Holy Spirit will guide God's children into ALL truth, what does that mean to you? Seems to me that the world feels satisfied with just a little bit of truth.

Let me see if I got this right...
You quoted yourself saying this (emphasis added):

Originally posted by Wonders

Hi, thanks for taking the time to ask.
Can God be knowable? Yes.

According to the bible, I do not know God personally.

You admit to not know God personally, but then you immediately followed by saying:

Sinners do not know God personally...
...unrighteous people do not know him personally and they will not be given eternal life.

So since you do not know God personally, then you are admitting to being a sinner and an unrighteous person that will not be given eternal life? I don't believe you meant that to come out the way you said it, or did you?

My question to you is this, why go through seminary?

I guess going through seminary may help educate oneself of what's considered doctrine by the church. I agree with you that one does not need to go through classes to obtain faith in God, but that never was my stance.

Looking at your response, I have one question I'd really like for you to answer.
When the bible says that the Holy Spirit will guide God's children into ALL truth, what does that mean to you? Seems to me that the world feels satisfied with just a little bit of truth.

Well I believe John 16:13 means exactly what it says. "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come".

But how does reading the bible and giving out scriptures show you know God. I said countless times I believe in God. I believe the bible contains truths. I however, do not claim to know that what I believe is fact. This requires faith, but faith does not make something more or less factual.

Your claim to know God is based on your belief in what you've read, what you believed you've heard and what you believe you felt or experienced. This claim has been made by many of different religions, so what makes you know you are right and they are wrong? .....Answer: Your faith that what you believe is true!

Either way, I wasn't trying to go around in circles when I think we have similar beliefs, maybe just a different way of expressing them.

Originally posted by iwan2ski
Let me see if I got this right...
You quoted yourself saying this (emphasis added):

Originally posted by Wonders

Hi, thanks for taking the time to ask.
Can God be knowable? Yes.

According to the bible, I do not know God personally.

You admit to not know God personally, but then you immediately followed by saying:

Sinners do not know God personally...
...unrighteous people do not know him personally and they will not be given eternal life.

So since you do not know God personally, then you are admitting to being a sinner and an unrighteous person that will not be given eternal life? I don't believe you meant that to come out the way you said it, or did you?

My question to you is this, why go through seminary?

I guess going through seminary may help educate oneself of what's considered doctrine by the church. I agree with you that one does not need to go through classes to obtain faith in God, but that never was my stance.

Looking at your response, I have one question I'd really like for you to answer.
When the bible says that the Holy Spirit will guide God's children into ALL truth, what does that mean to you? Seems to me that the world feels satisfied with just a little bit of truth.

Well I believe John 16:13 means exactly what it says. "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come".

But how does reading the bible and giving out scriptures show you know God. I said countless times I believe in God. I believe the bible contains truths. I however, do not claim to know that what I believe is fact. This requires faith, but faith does not make something more or less factual.

Your claim to know God is based on your belief in what you've read, what you believed you've heard and what you believe you felt or experienced. This claim has been made by many of different religions, so what makes you know you are right and they are wrong? .....Answer: Your faith that what you believe is true!

Well, you know what, I believe that if I can't or won't forgive someone, then I myself will not be forgiven either, but it's not impossible.
Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."
There are stories I will not tell, things that came about through prayer, specific things. We can't forget that God knows every little thing about us. He loves honesty.

Originally posted by intrepid
Imo there is nothing to prove a GOD, or not. Maybe we were seeded here by a benevolent alien race after we screwed it up on Mars. I also can't disprove the possible existence of a being that could create reality before it happens. That's Agnosticism my friend. Deists have theirs. Atheists do too. Agnostics are, "Stop arguing guys and lets see some voluble fact."

The point was to keep us separated from ourselves "you stay on that side of the Himalayas and you others stay within your continental boundries" No ship building, no exploring. Unfortunately the separation by sea and or extreme physical terraform did not work. Now we have many different understandings of personal ideologies which will cause/create conflict. A well intentioned idea to separate, and study fledgling (potencially) civilizations but a failure. Whos Failure, who was at risk, who took a chance? Where does the atheist fit in here?

What is the difference between a Thiest and a Gnostic?