To Muslim members of ATS: What do you think about Mali?

logical7,
That was an inappropriate remark to make. It may be boring TO YOU, but it is not to me, and I hate to be whiney, but the thread was started by me to gain knowledge in one place. ollncasino's information is very helpful, and adds to my understanding, so please refrain from telling him "it gets boring".

And just, FYI, people generally need to hear something at least FIVE TIMES before it sinks in. Don't forget that not everyone reads every thread, and while olln's info may have been posted elsewhere to others (and you were in the audience), that doesn't mean he needs to stop sharing his knowledge with the rest of us.


Skorpion,
You are also out of line with your name-calling and labelling. Facts are facts, and history is history, and some things taught by "Scripture" are FLAT OUT WRONG. Please try to deal with it in a more calm and less rabid manner. I know you can do better than that. If you want to discuss the Hindu v Mulsim population in India, I would be VERY HAPPY to see you conduct a thread on it. I'm interested in it, and want to know more. But THIS is not the thread for it.

This thread was about Mali's problem, and what Muslim members thought about it.

Thanks to you both (and everyone else) for contributing. Turns out not many of us at all know what's beneath all the media attention, sound bytes, and upset.

Originally posted by wildtimes
logical7,
That was an inappropriate remark to make. It may be boring TO YOU, but it is not to me, and I hate to be whiney, but the thread was started by me to gain knowledge in one place. ollncasino's information is very helpful, and adds to my understanding, so please refrain from telling him "it gets boring".

And just, FYI, people generally need to hear something at least FIVE TIMES before it sinks in. Don't forget that not everyone reads every thread, and while olln's info may have been posted elsewhere to others (and you were in the audience), that doesn't mean he needs to stop sharing his knowledge with the rest of us.


Skorpion,
You are also out of line with your name-calling and labelling. Facts are facts, and history is history, and some things taught by "Scripture" are FLAT OUT WRONG. Please try to deal with it in a more calm and less rabid manner. I know you can do better than that. If you want to discuss the Hindu v Mulsim population in India, I would be VERY HAPPY to see you conduct a thread on it. I'm interested in it, and want to know more. But THIS is not the thread for it.

This thread was about Mali's problem, and what Muslim members thought about it.

Thanks to you both (and everyone else) for contributing. Turns out not many of us at all know what's beneath all the media attention, sound bytes, and upset.

well in that case, i'l just have to reply to olincasino again but maybe not for his benifit so much as much for yours. Then it also wouldnt be boring to me as i know that at least others will be reading.thanks to bring it to my attention that the replies can help others if not the person i am interacting.
Also your response to sc0rp is a bit exaggerated, if you want to maintain a polite thread then also learn to identify and shun provocateurs or at least leash them!

reply to post by wildtimes

Facts are facts, and history is history, and some things taught by "Scripture" are FLAT OUT WRONG.

not true, history depends on who the historian is.
Do you think that in history of Afghanistan, America would be praised as a liberators? More than 99% of Afghans dont even know what 9/11 was.
Anyways let me start replying to olincasino and you.
First the hadith of burning down the house of anyone who doesnt pray.
Thats sure is an authentic hadith.
As authentic as Jesus pbuh saying to pluck out ones eye if it lusts.
Its not meant literally, just an extreme emotional example to drive the message deep.
People who take it literally are the ones who lack simple common sense and can become extremists.

reply to post by logical7

As authentic as Jesus pbuh saying to pluck out ones eye if it lusts.
Its not meant literally, just an extreme emotional example to drive the message deep.
People who take it literally are the ones who lack simple common sense and can become extremists.

Quite right.

Literalists are perhaps the scariest of the Scripture-followers. That is part of my argument that the Scriptures and Holy Books need to be made unambiguous. If there is a true, right, and moral rule, there should (in my opinion) be nothing "allegorical".... nothing "extreme" that can be taken and used as justification for horrible acts.

In other words: in matters of life and death, of living well and living wrongly, there must be NO ROOM FOR CONFUSION; if these ancient translated and retranslated books were to be edited into modern language AND actual meaning, leaving out the "loophole" items that people can use to "defend" harming others....we would all be better off.

Suppose you were the new ruler of all Islam; and you knew that many, many people take the sacred words and use them to harm others; and you also knew that the ONLY WAY to get them to stop was to say "okay, this VERSION of this book and its LESSONS is no longer appropriate, and we must work back to the fundamentals, and discard the "sayings" and "parables" and replace them with the actual MEANINGS, so that every one, beyond a doubt, knows what they are.".... (education and critical thinking skills) would you do it?

Which is more important? The lives of innocents, or an ancient book? Really, deep in your heart - which is more important for humanity today, and why?

reply to post by logical7

well in that case, i'l just have to reply to olincasino again but maybe not for his benifit so much as much for yours. Then it also wouldnt be boring to me as i know that at least others will be reading.thanks to bring it to my attention that the replies can help others if not the person i am interacting.
Also your response to sc0rp is a bit exaggerated, if you want to maintain a polite thread then also learn to identify and shun provocateurs or at least leash them!

Am I correctly interpreting this statement - that you think someone in the thread is behaving as a provocateur? I don't see any reason, yet, to disbelieve olln's offered information. Can you or Skorpion provide equally researched sources that make olln's sources fraudulent?

What is incorrect in his data, please? I don't want to be misguided or misled by anyone, nor do I wish to mislead anyone. Thanks, logical!

reply to post by logical7

Do you think that in history of Afghanistan, America would be praised as a liberators? More than 99% of Afghans dont even know what 9/11 was.

You may have figured out by now, if I haven't said it outright, that I am against war. I do not approve of the actions of the American government in that part of the world.

Why is it that 99% of Afghans don't know what 9/11 is? How is that even possible?

Okay, this morning on NPR there was a news and critique piece about Mali:

the insurgents, called "Islamists"in the reporter's words, are leftovers from Libya. They took the weapons from the Gaddafi conflict thing and went to Mali. They now have a stronghold in the northern part of Mali.

And this just in today:

Sanaa, Yemen (CNN) -- The deputy leader of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and one of the most wanted men in Saudi Arabia has been killed, a prominent jihadist announced Tuesday, though officials in the group's home base of Yemen said they had no evidence of his death.
Abu Sufyan al-Azdi, also known as Saeed al-Shahri, died "after a long journey in fighting the Zio-Crusader campaign," jihadist Abdulla bin Muhammad said on his Twitter account. The tweet was reported by SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors global terrorism.
Read more: Senior al Qaeda leader killed in Pakistan, officials say
It was not clear how al-Azdi died. SITE said media reports indicated he died of injuries incurred in a December drone strike.
The Arabic news network Al-Arabiya reported al-Azdi's death, citing his relatives.
Read more: Al Qaeda leader calls for kidnapping of Westerners

edition.cnn.com...

He was in Pakistan, but as a leader of AQ, this still has bearing on our thread re Mali.

reply to post by wildtimes

would you do it? Which is more important? The lives of innocents, or an ancient book? Really, deep in your heart - which is more important for humanity today, and why?

honestly, i dont think Qur'an is an ancient book. But thats my belief.
I do believe that people should be educated correctly.
The problem here is not the hadith or what Jesus pbuh said.
I dont see any one eyed christians even in west after such an ease to lust like billboards, girls in skirts etc.
I also dont know any muslim's house being burnt because he dint pray.
The problem is hypocrisy when people start with other religion's scripture with intention to find faults but dont use the same parameters as they use for their own.
You are generalising it on any literalistic interpretation. I do agree with you generally but please avoid the "i told you so dint i?" statement as soon something like this comes up as it feels that you are just patient enough till your already made up mind is proved right. Hope its not that way.

reply to post by wildtimes

Can you or Skorpion provide equally researched sources that make olln's sources fraudulent? What is incorrect in his data, please? I don't want to be misguided or misled by anyone, nor do I wish to mislead anyone. Thanks, logical!

sure we can, i'l b posting it right when i reach home, on my way now.
And i am sorry to be a bit rude, i realise that you cant identify the provocateur as you dont know that the history mentioned by olincasino is not agreed by majority historians, the historian Karsh was quoted for his unique historical view, not a majority view, also doesnt help that he is israeli and the topic is jewish persecution.(no offence to any jew)
you have to acknowledge that the hatred runs deep on both sides so you can never rely on a single source.

reply to post by logical7

The problem here is not the hadith or what Jesus pbuh said.
I dont see any one eyed christians even in west after such an ease to lust like billboards, girls in skirts etc.
I also dont know any muslim's house being burnt because he dint pray.
The problem is hypocrisy when people start with other religion's scripture with intention to find faults but dont use the same parameters as they use for their own.

You do realize that I don't use any Scriptures at all to shore up my behaviors, right?

I don't want to be all "sanctimonious" or "told you so," and I'm not looking to prove the one scripture is better than the others. I'm looking only at behaviors, and the CAUSES of those behaviors. I hope you see what I mean.

We've talked about the fundamentals; that's still where I'm looking. We are all connected under or within or around One Source, and as such, we ought to care for one another.

What's behind the instability in Mali? from cnn

What are some of the human rights concerns in Mali?
Islamists controlling most of the north have imposed a stricter form of Islamic law, or sharia.
"We don't have to answer to anyone over the application of sharia," Islamist commissioner Aliou Toure said last year.
Locals are not receptive to the extreme interpretations; they practice a much more relaxed form of Islam. Some have taken to the streets in protest.
As part of their new laws, radical groups banned music, a major setback for a country known for "Festival au Desert," where acts like Robert Plant and Bono have performed. They've also said no to smoking, drinking and watching sports on television.
At least four times in 2012, the militants have destroyed Timbuktu's historic tombs and shrines, claiming the relics are idolatrous. The picturesque city was once an important destination for Islamic scholars for its ancient and prominent burial sites.
Public executions, amputations, floggings and other inhumane punishments are becoming common, the United Nations says.

One interesting side-discovery thing from this morning....(trivial, but oh well)...as I was reading cnn's report about this issue:

It is mentioned that Islamic treasures of architecture and history being destroyed. (This makes me sick....all the devastation of ancient sites is inexcusable when they are so rich with REAL history, and gathering places for scholars...), but anyway....there in Mali, I guess, was some stunning architecture and historical sites -- some of them in "Timbuktu".....

The place-name Timbuktu is used in "the West" to mean "any remote and faraway place"....

now I know where it is!

reply to post by logical7

I dont see any one eyed christians even in west after such an ease to lust like billboards, girls in skirts etc.

And here it sounds like you imagine American men as totally lacking in self-control; it was in India just last week that another girl was gang-raped on a bus.

Gang-rapes in America are pretty rare, and prosecuted fully. No gang of men on any public bus would rape a girl and get away with it. On the one hand, we don't find the human form to be some "taboo" object invented (by God?) to cause people to be slobbering, violent fools....
on the other hand, yes, women are often dressed provocatively and "sex sells products". .... using a fake idea of beauty that very few women can live up to.....which we both acknowledge is not conducive to healthy self-image....

But, perhaps because men in the West are used to seeing scantily-dressed women and girls, and are taught early that they mustn't take advantage or expect to be "given sex", they aren't as susceptible to being overcome by lust.

I don't know.

reply to post by logical7

you have to acknowledge that the hatred runs deep on both sides so you can never rely on a single source.

I am absolutely aware that the "hatred runs deep", and is THE CAUSE of much suffering and destruction!!!

I am a neutral party in terms of ethnic/cultural/religious thought....

so - HOW DO WE GET RID OF THE HATRED?

reply to post by wildtimes

You do realize that I don't use any Scriptures at all to shore up my behaviors, right?

yes i do and i am completely fine. just want to widen your opinion about scriptures at least Qur'an. You wouldnt mind if my scripture teaches correct behaviour and then its used by billions to guide them. Right?

We've talked about the fundamentals;
that's still where I'm looking. We are all connected under or within or around
One Source, and as such, we ought to
care for one another.

i completely agree to that. There however are practical obstacles that have to be removed. The biggest is making the majority agree to it when they dont want to accept One Creator.

One interesting side-discovery thing
from this morning....(trivial, but oh
well)...as I was reading cnn's report
about this issue:
It is mentioned that Islamic treasures
of architecture and history being destroyed. (This makes me sick....all
the devastation of ancient sites is
inexcusable when they are so rich
with REAL history, and gathering
places for scholars...), but
anyway....there in Mali, I guess, was some stunning architecture and
historical sites -- some of them in
"Timbuktu".....

again i had heard it more than 6 months back.
Taliban did it with statues of buddha in Bamiyan.
Its an identifying mark of extremism.
Indonesia however has buddhist temples open for tourists when more than 90% population is muslim.

reply to post by logical7

Indonesia however has buddhist temples open for tourists when more than 90% population is muslim.

If there is ONE religion that truly supports peace and unity with the Source, it's Buddhism. Good for them. I would like very much to visit a Buddhist monastery or temple one day....
just like I enjoyed learning about and visiting the Baha'i temple and visitor's center.

On the other hand, Indonesia is going to kill a 56-year old British grandmother who was (reportedly) threatened with her family's injury and so was coerced/forced to smuggle in a bunch of coc aine. Not good. If there is a demand for coc aine in Indonesia, and it is 90% Muslim, .... well, what's up with that?

reply to post by logical7

You wouldnt mind if my scripture teaches correct behaviour and then its used by billions to guide them. Right?

Nope! Wouldn't mind one little tiny bit! But, it doesn't do that ONLY. It might work for some, but it's being used by others to kill, maim, destroy, conquer....and turns them into barbarian beasts. Right?

The biggest is making the majority agree to it when they dont want to accept One Creator.

So, you are talking about polytheists? People who believe in multiple creators? Who are they, please?

Jews ----> One God
Muslims -----> One God
Christians-------> One God, ('the Father Almighty', maker of Heaven and Earth) with three aspects (which I find unnecessary, btw)

I have a suggestion for you, logical7. You read things to expand your knowledge, I know that. I'd like to suggest two books for you, which give an overview of the Abrahamic faiths' evolution and development over the ages:

A History of God, by Karen Armstrong free to download on this link! It's a big book, too. I'm surprised it can be downloaded, but that's good, right?

'An invigorating, unpretentious, sympathetic history, of interest to believers curious about what they believe, and non-believers fascinated by belief, as non-believers ought to be' Observer 'This is the most fascinating and learned survey of the biggest wild-goose chase in history - the quest for God. Karen Armstrong is a genius' A.N. Wilson The idea of a single devine being - God, Yahweh, Allah - has existed for over 4,000 years. But the history of God is also the history of human struggle. While Judaism, Islam and Christianity proclaim the goodness of God, organised religion has too often been the catalyst for violence and ineradicable prejudice. In this fascinating, extensive and original account of the evolution of belief, Karen Armstrong examines Western socitety's unerring fidelity to this idea of One God and the many conflicting convictions it engenders. A controversial, extraordinary story of worship and war, A History of God confronts the most fundamental fact - or fiction - of our lives.

and

The Evolution of God by Robert Wright

In The Evolution of God, Robert Wright takes us on a sweeping journey through history, unveiling a discovery of crucial importance to the present moment: there is a pattern in the evolution of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and a “hidden code” in their scriptures. Reading these scriptures in light of the circumstances surrounding their creation, Wright reveals the forces that have repeatedly moved the Abrahamic faiths away from belligerence and intolerance to a higher moral plane. And he shows how these forces could today let these faiths reassert their deep proclivity toward harmony and reconciliation. What’s more, his analysis raises the prospect of a second kind of reconciliation: the reconciliation of science and religion.
Using the prisms of archaeology, theology, history, and evolutionary psychology, Wright repeatedly overturns conventional wisdom:..

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Do you think that in history of Afghanistan, America would be praised as a liberators? More than 99% of Afghans dont even know what 9/11 was.

You may have figured out by now, if I haven't said it outright, that I am against war. I do not approve of the actions of the American government in that part of the world.

Why is it that 99% of Afghans don't know what 9/11 is? How is that even possible?

yes i know you are anti-war, i gave the example to point that history is not history. Nothing personal wildtimes!
Afghans were not told. They are basically surviving on bare necessities. Why would they be bothered about what happened somewhere.
Also maybe you dint knew that taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden to a neutral country for a full trial. It was on national news in india for two days and then it disappeared. Taliban was sure concerned about its people and dint wanted bombs to rain on them. They also asked for any proofs that connected Bin Laden with 9/11 none were given. Taliban then refused to hand him over as he wasnt proved guilty neither the demand for fair trial accepted.

reply to post by logical7

Afghans were not told. They are basically surviving on bare necessities. Why would they be bothered about what happened somewhere.

I understand that survival trumps education...
but....
should they NOT be told the why of what's happening? I'd sure as hell want someone to explain to me why my country was being leveled and my fellow countrymen killed!!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

You wouldnt mind if my scripture teaches correct behaviour and then its used by billions to guide them. Right?

Nope! Wouldn't mind one little tiny bit! But, it doesn't do that ONLY. It might work for some, but it's being used by others to kill, maim, destroy, conquer....and turns them into barbarian beasts. Right?

lets go statistical! Total muslim population about 2 billions, population of extremists/terrorists etc all over say not more that 200,000.
Thats 0.01%
even if you take extremists as 2 millions, its still only 0.1%
so 99.9% muslims learn to behave properly by Qur'an.
Would you risk that these get free to make up their own mind to figure out everything from zero, that would only increase disorder.

reply to post by logical7

Would you risk that these get free to make up their own mind to figure out everything from zero, that would only increase disorder.

How do you think I would answer this?

reply to post by wildtimes

should they NOT be told the why of what's happening? I'd sure as hell want someone to explain to me why my country was being leveled and my fellow countrymen killed!!

who would? The taliban government? They dont seem like the ones educating people about how right the ememy is in bombing them.
They have seen russian invasion and the taliban coming for the rescue. Then they see american invasion trying to hunt and kill their saviours who are local language speaking too by these hi-tech strange language speaking white skined "aliens". What side would you take?