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To Muslim members of ATS: What do you think about Mali?

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posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by ollncasino
 

Thanks, olin......
you are correct, and I appreciate your contribution.

I'm hoping to explore, delineate, and then DECONSTRUCT the misunderstandings that exist. I'm not surprised, really, (although I am disappointed) that some people have their defensiveness up and running.

I don't intend to be confrontational.....
I want to be "conversational".....




posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


People have their defenses up because they expect attack, and they fear it. otherwise, there is no need for defensiveness. It's part of that "self-fulfilling prophecy" I spoke of before. Their leaders tell them this is going to happen, so they expect it to, and tend to see monsters under the bed even when there are none there.

On the other side of the fence, in the other camp, their leaders are telling them the same thing - "fear the Other. they only want to attack you. Expect it", and they behave in the same way.

Then, when "defensiveness" is perceived as the expected attack, it gets... interesting.

This is how leadership keeps us separated for their own nefarious purposes.



edit on 2013/1/21 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 04:53 PM
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Ehm lets first ask ourselves the question who made al qaida? Wasn't it your own government?
And what do you expect from the moderate moslims all around the world?
Take our guns and fight against brainwashed wannabe muslims?
We are with more than 1 billion and we can't even stand up for what is happening in palestina...
How the hell you want us to fix something in Mali? We also have jobs and bills to pay...
simply said; We don't have the time think about what those guys our doing under the status muslim...
We are tired of the western hypocrisy ... Kill 1 million people in iraq and pretend nothing happened
by simply saying: "heey, yea we found nothing" ... If you lose your family and home thanks to a drone in your city that
killed 2 'terrorists' and 50 civilians, wouldn't you also become a 'terrorist'?



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by ElectricFeel
 


Ehm lets first ask ourselves the question who made al qaida? Wasn't it your own government?


I don't know. Was it?

And yes, if my family were killed by drones or warriors I would be ready for action.....

I am sorry for your pain.



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricFeel
Ehm lets first ask ourselves the question who made al qaida? Wasn't it your own government?


No. That argument has been rehashed ad nauseum on ATS, and it will not die - probably because it makes a good story. There is no factual or supportable basis for it, however.



And what do you expect from the moderate moslims all around the world?
Take our guns and fight against brainwashed wannabe muslims?
We are with more than 1 billion and we can't even stand up for what is happening in palestina...
How the hell you want us to fix something in Mali? We also have jobs and bills to pay...


No reason you should each have to march on AQ strongholds individually - isn't that sort of thing what you keep armies for? Go to work and pay your bills, by all means, but it would be nice to hear you occasionally call for someone to DO something about the people in AQ abusing your religion. Silence is a form of tacit support. That's why I've been vociferous about what the US has done in Iraq - because I don't support the Iraq war, and never have. I think it was an ill advised, ill conceived, and ill prosecuted diversion of resources that should have been going to Afghanistan. There was no use or point in going to war in Iraq. I would expect that if you are at odds with the AQ abuse of Islam, you would at least be speaking against it, just as I speak against the US government abuse of our armed forces in Iraq.

Furthermore, the OP never asked for you to DO anything beyond offer an insightful opinion into the dealings of AQ and the Muslim response to them. I note that by NOT doing so, you have actually done so - given your opinion in the matter.

edit on 2013/1/21 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Allow me to reply to the OP. I have not read through this thread and have no knowledge of it past the first few posts.

I am a Muslim from mixed background. (As most do already know) however I have somewhat of an opinion and a thought process here that may or may not have value. Not that I know the situation in Mali - I'll be honest, between working 6 days a week, a husband and a very sick daughter I have not kept up on world news beyond what others tell me. This is the first I have heard of Mali (not of the country but the situation there)

First, we do not know the real situation and cannot know what is happening without speaking to people from Mali. There is no news media who produces actual news... its all whatever agenda they wish to push or whatever opinion they are paid to foist upon innocent and gullable people. So, in reality all we can do is have one more discussion, (at least me personally) on extremism in Islam verses moderate Islam and the problem which Muslims face where concerns the fight against extremism.

The only way to fight lies is with the truth. I hope you will understand this point. To us, truth lies between two extremes. What you will call moderation...

anything that is extreme is excess of something, and to either extreme Islam is not found... the straight path is the middle path of Islam. It is balance and making the attempt to find the truth after careful examination of historical background, context of the classical (not modern) arabic which the Holy Quran was written, and examination in light of all this of traditions of the Prophet of Islam (sawa) and a determination of the reliability of such.

What is found in extremism is extreme literalism, acceptance of whatever traditions fit the situation they want fit, and militancy, rather than any learning, this is based in politics of this day, and the need to have a religion to twist in effort to gain more followers.

Most of the Muslim world is in a state of economic disadvantage, third world countries most of them, the ones that arent are the largest exporters of extremism...are having extremism imported to their country.

The rest of us dont have the funds to combat the large amounts of money they have, and we arent having this religion that spreads itself. (a belief like that, to spread the belief).. We believe this is more up to God and our good actions and behavior which in and of itself will spread Islam, ie: if my behavior is a Godly type manner then you may ask why? what do I believe? etc etc., rather than this similarity of going door to door type of thing which these extremists do.

The only way to combat lies is with truth, but for this you must have true shiekhs who speak the language of the people to teach truth, and there must be more of them than the extremists, and they must not allow extremism to take any hold, so they must arrive at the same time in the same country, once one way of thinking is in place firmly, it is difficult to change the mind to accept anything else.

Extremism takes very very fast hold in poor countries, or countries uneducated to under educated, and non-arabic speaking countries who are quicker to be angry with the status quo politically in their area, quicker to believe a twisted version of the language, etc. In order to fight against this shiekhs who are more moderate must speak their language, and teach the truth... ie: moderate Islam will have to start a spreading Islam campaign that exceeds that of the extremists, and to every country in the world. It will need to speak every language in the world and have the money to do so, it will need to send people into countries very very young to learn the language and spread Islam there, in effort to combat this, so extremism doesnt take any hold in the minds of people... trying to spread truth after the fact is much more difficult.

Trying to spread it in our own countries is also quite difficult as the funding from western and saudi governments and leaders (etc) to spread extremism is a great amount of funds.... and moderate muslims speak out, but as more and more are killed or silenced, as more and more anger at the west for atrocities commited increases, the more fuel gets put in their fire, and it seems a loosing battle. One - we have not the funds or the time to fight in other countries as we try fighting in our own countries but seem daily to loose a little more ground, as more and more youth see extremism as the political answer.

And it is political. Not anything else.







edit on 21-1-2013 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 07:35 PM
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Muslim response here. Never ousted my religion before on here, but here we go:

I don't care about Al-Qaeda and I don't know why you expect that any Muslim should. These people are simply a terrorist hate group and aren't motivated by religion they're motivated by politics and use religion as a guise to garner support from lesser minds which are angry without any real direction.

I don't want terrorists such as Al-Qaeda to have national resources of Mali, and much as I don't want terrorist organizations such as MI6, KGB & CIA keep theirs.

Plenty of Muslims did speak out against 9/11 and remind people that Islam is a religion of peace in the face of various misguided retaliatory hate crimes, some of which I've been a personal victim of but life goes on.

But why do people expect Muslims to go around apologizing for everything Al-Qaeda do? What do they have to do with me? Islam doesn't even have a "Pope" or central body like Catholicism does. Our Caliph and his family were rolled up in a carpet and trampled to death by horses thanks to Ghengis Khan and the line of Caliphs is hereditary only thus it ended.

Who do you expect to speak up about it? What do you want them to say?

Also, one other thing. This so called "Moderate Muslim" is just a "Comfortable Muslim" to the Islamophobic mind. A Muslim that takes the systematic genocide of his people on the chin doesn't kick up any fuss or complain about what he sees as wrong in the world in any way and drowns himself in mindless consumerism like those around him.

If people you knew, or families of people you knew were murdered by drone strikes and written off as "collateral damage" (Did you know as far as casualty reports from drone strikes go "Enemy Combatant" is defined as any male over the age of 16?) or had thousands of tons of depleted uranium dropped on their homes amongst other atrocities committed by NATO armed forces or the mercenaries they hire - Wouldn't you be a bit pissed off? Would you find it hard to give said soldiers a "Heroes welcome"?



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 07:53 PM
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Furthermore you say "What will your 1 billion people do about this?!" Well, again it's nothing to do with me or just about any Muslim. Why are you making it the responsibility of every Muslim on the planet? There are 2.1 billion Christians in the world, does that make the crucifixions going on in Africa every Christians personal responsibility to personally intervene in and stop from taking place? Not a chance. What about the Norway shootings? What will every Christian in the world do to personally take down other Christian extremist groups which aren't within their own borders?

The reason you see Western Diplomats speaking about this is obvious. Western Diplomats are the ones with the interventionist, invasionist, colonial-era imperialistic foreign policies not to mention more political interest in keeping Al-Qaeda down to get re-elected.

They also have more monetary investment into oil stocks, a more global media which of course won't ever show a Muslim saying that Al-Qaeda is a bad thing not to mention the Western military is purposely geared toward "Foreign Intervention" (Meritless, geneva-convention breaching invasion) where as most Eastern militaries are based around regional conflict and in-country defence. How would an interventionist force from a Muslim nation even make it to Mali? Would the West even allow Muslim nations to intervene? (Unlikely.)

Al-Qaeda is Americas own child and thus ultimately her responsibility (Read up on Operation Cyclone to learn more on how the CIA funded, armed and trained them into existence to fight the USSR.) You truly do reap what you sow.
edit on 21-1-2013 by sajuek because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


I used to speak, the internet as my hijab, and fight against this spread of extremism...

no one wants the truth... no one cares for what it is that God wanted to teach us, and for us to practice

my voice can scream from the rooftops, it doesnt do any good... I am only one... and those with me... they scream too..... we are voices screaming and no one hears

there is too much hate born for many to care for God and His People or His Truth... we live in a time of darkness



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 08:04 PM
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Al-Qaeda is Americas own child and thus ultimately her responsibility (Read up on Operation Cyclone to learn more on how the CIA funded, armed and trained them into existence to fight the USSR.) You truly do reap what you sow.


I know way too much about Operation Cyclone. You are misinformed here.



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by ollncasino
 




Someone needed to pay the taxes?
Early in its history of conquest, Islamic rulers actually discouraged conversion to Islam by conquered people. Non-Muslims paid higher taxes.


So that renders invalid the canard that Islam spread by the sword.

Also, I recall you were the one posting those maps showing how all those countries became Islamized through bloody conquest. Have you changed your stance on this matter?

I guess when its convenient, "muslims converted people through the sword"
When its not, "Muslims didn't convert people because they could tax them heavily"

But you're trying to have it both ways.







edit on 21-1-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2013 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 


I heard.

If you can drive it through my thick skull, you can educate anyone.

The only time you lose is when you give up. Until you do, you're still in the running, and they haven't won. You just have to keep thinking "it ain't over until I say it's over!"

I don't think it's proper to EVER let the bastards win, not as long as I'm still drawing breath, but then again I'm pretty hard headed - probably more so than the average bear.

edit on 2013/1/21 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2013 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Ok, so maybe I misunderstood something.

Because what you said earlier...

The West thinks that "Muslims will never approve of us (the West) until we follow their religion."

sounded like something from a typical "the muslims are coming to get us" kind of paranoid fundamentalist.

edit on 22-1-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2013 @ 02:28 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Al-Qaeda is CIA.

It is funded by the CIA.

If they are there, a goal is to be achieved.

These are the same Al-qaeda fighters who were funded by NATO to overthrow Gaddaffi, who are now destabilising Mali.

The overall aim, to destabilise the whole of Africa completely so the West can move in and control resources. It is why Gaddaffi had to be removed in the most public way possible, to send a message to those who might try to do the same thing.

These aren't Muslims fighting Extremist battles. These are soldiers fighting the battle they are paid to fight, with the media spinning it to show them in a bad light, if it suits. In Libya they were Freedom fighters. Now these same soldiers are the enemy, after only a year and a half.

The whole thing is a chess game, two sides being played by the same player.



posted on Jan, 22 2013 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu


Al-Qaeda is Americas own child and thus ultimately her responsibility (Read up on Operation Cyclone to learn more on how the CIA funded, armed and trained them into existence to fight the USSR.) You truly do reap what you sow.


I know way too much about Operation Cyclone. You are misinformed here.



Okay, so the CIA armed, trained and funded extremist groups in Afghanistan for 9 years to fight their enemies. Osama Binladen wasn't personally involved although the leaders of these groups were friendly to him. After the USSR was beaten, a lot of those highly trained individuals, American military weapons and American tax money went towards Osama Bindlen's Al-Qaeda. You are simply skirting the issue and just calling a 2 headed snake 2 different beasts.



posted on Jan, 22 2013 @ 03:09 AM
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reply to post by sajuek
 


So what exactly is your point? You might not realize it, but that certainly isn't the first time in human history that former allies became enemies.



posted on Jan, 22 2013 @ 03:40 AM
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reply to post by ollncasino
 


you obviously believe that as it feeds your pre-formed ideas about how islam is so so bad. Good for you!
Muslims have their own historical sources that dont really agree with what you posted.
What can be concluded is that, the hatred of islam in europe runs very deep.
Islam obviously came as a competition to christianity and also conquered a vast territory that was ruled before by romans and the church.
The writers of history are not so neutral.
So what the western history of islam says has to be taken with this in mind.
Also as sk0rpi0n said, you cant go history shopping to suit the point you have.
It just reveals your opinion about islam. I am fine with it. Hope that you are aware of it too.



posted on Jan, 22 2013 @ 04:26 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sajuek
 


So what exactly is your point? You might not realize it, but that certainly isn't the first time in human history that former allies became enemies.

they were not allies in a real sense. They were babies who were fed and raised and given arms for a purpose and when the need was no more they were abandoned, now they are angry teens!!
And that is being still done, doesnt the west learn from past mistakes? in syria Al-Qaeda is supported by the same french and other european governments. This is outright hypocrisy. Wouldnt they get a safe haven there?



posted on Jan, 22 2013 @ 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sajuek
 


So what exactly is your point? You might not realize it, but that certainly isn't the first time in human history that former allies became enemies.

they were not allies in a real sense. They were babies who were fed and raised and given arms for a purpose and when the need was no more they were abandoned, now they are angry teens!!
And that is being still done, doesnt the west learn from past mistakes? in syria Al-Qaeda is supported by the same french and other european governments. This is outright hypocrisy. Wouldnt they get a safe haven there?


Ummm, yes they were allies in a real sense, that's precisely what they were. Perhaps you should brush up on the definition of allies:



allies plural of al·ly (Noun)

Noun

1. A state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose, typically by treaty.
2. A person or organization that cooperates with or helps another in a particular activity.


Link



edit on 22-1-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2013 @ 06:59 AM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 

OpinionatedB,

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain your point of view. I appreciate the thoughtful and intelligent manner with which you addressed the question.

I agree with you that extremism is inappropriate. I despise war, I believe we are all One Creation, and need to care for one another.

The question in the OP was absolutely sincere; I don't have a clear understanding of all of it; and I doubt that any of us "regular citizens" really know enough to make any kind of 'educated assessment', because we are not privy to the actual workings on these things.

Certainly politics, the government, and the media keep our suspicions high, on all sides (gauging from the various responses in these various ongoing threads regarding Islam).

I, too, try to speak out against atrocities, hatred, bigotry, ignorance, and unjust finger-pointing.

For several weeks now, I have been engaged in a dialogue about religious differences and cultural misunderstandings with a Muslim male who has no personal exposure to "Western women" -- I felt that we were bridging a gap, both paying attention, asking questions back and forth to make sure we understood one another. It was civilized and informational....even "friendly" in the sense of "I'd be happy to tell you what I know and how I feel, and have some questions for you as well..."

Sadly, some boundary was apparently crossed, or some nerve struck, that caused damage to the forward momentum, and I was then told I sounded like I was accusing. I can only hope that somehow I am not misconstrued or misunderstood.

Do I think fundamentalists take things too far? Yes, I do. Do I think the entire world needs to revisit "history" and "amend" our patterns toward a more peaceful, plentiful life for EVERYONE? Absolutely.

I'm growing weary from the effort, and when I begin to feel that after all this time, and all of my honest efforts to learn and to help others learn from their side as well, that I am being "labelled" unjustly....I begin to give up hope of ever making a dent in the wall.

But, we must not give in....know that I hear you, I appreciate your efforts,....and I will stand atop my roof and scream with you.

Let us not give up hope for peace and understanding. Let us all give one another the benefit of the doubt, and stretch ourselves -- out of our comfort zones, if need be -- to come to a place of community, no matter if it's a global or local one.

Sincerely,
~wild




edit on 22-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)






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