To Muslim members of ATS: What do you think about Mali?

reply to post by wildtimes


You are welcome

Again i have no axe to grind on the subject

I was just hoping for a reasoned and informed debate.

reply to post by wildtimes


I think it's a great idea. Let the all congregate there then we turn it into a sea of glass.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by cody599

 

I guess I would say the non-extremist, tolerant and, gentle kind? The moderates? Those who practice peacefully and allow others to live unmolested; who are fine with other faiths existing alongside them.

Yes, the Crusades would be an example of the Roman Catholic Church's atrocities.
Thanks for acknowledging the question, cody!

Those are the apostates.

Sorry for joining late, missed to see it.
i had found about Mali and Al-Qaeda about 6 months ago. Dint knew its still the same. France does want to attack it claiming it will be used as a base to cause terrorist attacks in europe!
The militants there are from a wide range of places, the fighters of Gaddafi from libya, somalia etc.
There was a political and governmental vacuum in Mali and it was taken advantage of.
This is what i knew 6 months back and i found now that french troops are actually fighting there. Started 11th january.
About my opinion, i'l ask why so late?
I see another Afghanistan in the making.
Also why canada and usa are so eager to contribute.
Another fact, Mali is rich in uranium and 3rd largest producer of gold and france largely depends on nuclear power for electricity.
Can this be so obvious? Ofcourse NOT!
Lets concentrate on how Mali is Al-Qaeda's home!!

also this,
www.globalresearch.ca...

The International Red Cross is reporting scores of civilian and military casualties in the towns coming under French attack.
Amnesty International is worried. Its West Africa researcher, Salvatore Saguès, was in the country last September and saw the recruitment of children into the Mali army. He is worried about retaliatory attacks by the army ifit retakes control of the towns and cities it has lost, notably in the northern cities of Gao, Kidal and Timbuktu.
He also warned of the plans to bring neighbouring armies into northern Mali. “These armies, who are already committing serious violations in their countries, are most likely to do the same, or at least not behave in accordance to international law if they are in Mali,” he said.
According to the U.N. refugee agency UNHCR , the latest crisis has internally displaced nearly 230,000 Malians. An additional 144,500 Malians were already refugees in neighbouring countries.
UNHCR spokesperson Adrian Edwards says half the populationof the town of Konna, some 5,000 people, sought as French bombs threatened to fall by fleeing across the River Niger.
In an ominous sign of more civilian casualties to come, and echoing the excuses for atrocities by invading armies against civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine in recent years, French military commanders are complaining of the difficulty in distinguishing fighters they are bombing from non-combatant populations.

just collateral damage i guess!!!

reply to post by logical7


Okay, log, I'm not sure what your point was here......
"why so late?" What are you implying or trying to state here??

Lets concentrate on how Mali is Al-Qaeda's home!!

Yeah! Let's!!!

So, tell me, please....how did this conflict in Mali come to your attention? I already stated I had been not paying attention to the stories on CNN.....(aside from ATS, that's my primary news source, then I go "fact-and-opinion-checking" at other sites)...

reply to post by wildtimes


my point is that the situation in Mali is being used to forward selfish goals. I dont know whom to hate more, the nutjobs or the ones "HELPING" to eradicate them.
I found about it on some news website, i think presstv.

reply to post by logical7

Okay....
and, to your knowledge, is there a general Islamic denunciation of the "selfish goals" that are, I agree, quite apparent.

Do the majority of Muslims pay any attention to what the extremists are doing?

I'm not trying to be rude....just want to know how those of the Muslim faith perceive the strife going on under the umbrella of "Islam".......

reply to post by wildtimes

Okay.... and, to your knowledge, is there a general Islamic denunciation of the "selfish goals" that are, I agree, quite apparent.

the neighbouring muslim countries have been promised "aid" in exchange of their HELP. how can there be denunciation of the "selfish goals" after this!

Do the majority of Muslims pay any attention to what the extremists are
doing?
I'm not trying to be rude....just want to
know how those of the Muslim faith
perceive the strife going on under the
umbrella of "Islam".

muslims are geopolitically much more aware, thanks to friday sermons about atleast important current world events.
But the image of USA and west in general is bad, really bad.
The peceptions are coloured by these factors and are very diverse but proportional to knowledge of islam, education etc. They range from condemning the millitants nutjobs to having a desire for them to win just so that the west gets humiliated.
EDIT: Just found Turkey against intervention
www.turkishweekly.net...

Touching on France's military operation in Mali, Davutoglu said, "We attach importance to solve the problem primarily inside Mali, and than in the African Union and ECOWAS. Whenever such a kind of issues becomes internationalized, it can get more complicated. What's important is to carry out those efforts under the umbrella of United Nations. No country should perform an intervention itself or with another country." Recalling that he had a phone conversation with Secretary General of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu on Thursday, the Minister Davutoglu said that he had requested from Ihsanoglu that Mail issue should be on the top of the agenda during OIC's February summit in Cairo.

reply to post by logical7

the neighbouring muslim countries have been promised "aid" in exchange of their HELP. how can there be denunciation of the "selfish goals" after this!

So, you are saying that the neighboring Muslim countries will not denounce (as in, say "this is wrong!") Al-Qaeda's 'selfish goals', because they themselves (the neighboring Muslim countires) will be "helped" by this "aid"?

Who is offering the "HELP"?
Al-Qaeda is offering "aid" for "help"?

I'm sorry, really....I'm confused about the situation. If Muslims are against violence, would they not refuse to remain silent against Al-Qaeda? Or, are they worried about being targeted next if they do speak against it??

(Like you said.....extremists have guns).

And, if that is the case,
then I guess the answer to the Original Question is:
"As long as we are being offered 'aid' in return for our 'HELP' to Al-Qaeda, we won't (or? are not in a position to?) do anything about it."

I know this sounds awful....and I realize I'm "projecting".......
I really want very much to be told I am mistaken about it.

Does Islam, in the sentiments of the majority of Muslims, disagree with the actions of Al-Qaeda in Mali?

reply to post by logical7

But the image of USA and west in general is bad, really bad.

And, likewise and equally, the image of Islam in the USA is bad, really bad.

Are my efforts here working to obliterate that image, just as your efforts are (hopefully) working to change the image of Islam?

reply to post by logical7

how can there be denunciation of the "selfish goals" after this!

If Muslims are opposed to the extremist actions of Al-Qaeda on grounds of their violence, but then do not speak out against Al-Qaeda when things opposed to Islam are being done by them.....

are they not then also victims of, or ... at least giving in to.... terrorism?

reply to post by wildtimes

If Muslims are opposed to the extremist actions of Al-Qaeda on grounds of their violence, but then do not speak out against Al-Qaeda when things opposed to Islam are being done by them.....
are they not then also victims of, or ... at least giving in to.... terrorism?

Why are regular muslims being scrutinized every time al-qaeda makes the news?
Its not like they any affiliation with al-qaeda. Muslims, like any other people have their lives to lead. They have jobs to keep and families to take care of. They too worry about stuff like bills and rising prices. Doesn't mean they are "giving in" to terrorism.

Even if muslims were to take to the streets holding signs speaking out against al-qaeda, its not going to change anything anyway. Its not like Christians and Jews would approve of muslims who speak out against al-qaeda. Fortunately, the Koran teaches us...
And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion.

As far as Mali goes, the whole thing is purely political... and I don't see what it has to do with religion.
I think Malis gold and mineral deposits may have something to do with it. Also I don't buy the MSM story about al-qaeda taking over a part of Mali. That sounds like the plot of a B-grade action movie. IMO its all basically an excuse for another round of bombing and invading.

reply to post by wildtimes

Mali, a totally double standard for neocolonialism !
while it has large resources of oil, gold, Uranium and agriculture, Mali is one of the poorest countries of this world !!
the attack of France was by permission of Mali's corrupted government.
which legitimate government would let a foreign force to kill it's own people !?
Salafism and Wahabism those minorities, the ideologies of Al_Qaeda and Taliban, those radicals, who fall on verses of divine books deaf and blind !!!!
most of them know it well that they are toys of colonialism of west and east. and some of them are even far more deaf and blind to know it !!!

And the servants of the Most Merciful (God) are those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall upon them deaf and blind. --Koran 25:73

those deaf and blind terrorists are fighting for colonialists in Pakistan, Iraq and Syria, Yemen ,Bahrain, Lebanon,... ! they regard some muslims and christians as some polytheists and they are killing people in order to go to heaven ! and the colonialists claim that they are fighting with them in Afghanistan and Mali !!!!!!
such acts can not save the colonialists from economical problems, it is not 18th century. world is at great turn, if they can perceive that ! spreading radicalism will hurt them as well.
Madam, what do you mean by muslim world, those corrupted governments are as muslim as western or eastern governments are Christian or humanist ! these were just my personal views, not the muslim world's.

I will just comment about this in general, because i dont really know much of the background. I am not agree of whit this separatis action. Not only in mali, but in everywhere. Lots of muslim not agree about it. For example, in my country in indonesia, we still battle these extremist, by law or by dialog in many level of society, the hard thing to solve is the wrong understanding of islam itself.
But not just this, we not agree with lots of unjustice and wrong thing happen in the world by anyone, any group or country.
Something wrong will always remain wrong however they want to wrap it to make it look good.

This plot is not just happened lately but since so long ago. A political movement to gain power and money using religion/islam flag to gain more support. Salafist and wahabis known behind them in general.

This is what i know, and mostly not from media but direct source. It started since afghanistan war against soviet. As we know US support taliban, but behind it, taliban have more support informally, militan from other country that weirdly can go there that time even dont have anything.
Those militan from other country not just help taliban, but adopt their ideology, even not all. When they got back, they start spread the ideology slowly to gather mass and support,even they only small in number, but they are loud, mostly since 2000.

Moving on, with more injustice toward muslim community in the world, they gain more support from people. Israel and US politic oftenly used as fuel. They have they own media, underground media that show evilness of the western to muslim society, with good naration and abundant proof of picture, video or even witness.

After bali bombing, more muslim in here start to get the idea that it is not about religion, but politic. Debat is getting worse, and the extremist strategy change, use different issue but same goal, to get more mass and support.

After 9/11 we can find lots of sites in internet thats only about hate to muslim or islam. Later on they start gathering wrong data, compile wrong understanding of quran and hadith, even fake it. Either they just compile it or make it themself and make conclusions of it.
It seems just a simple agenda of hating, but what they dont know, this false article or sites have been used lately by this extremist, and they gather more mass and support from young people who dont know much about islam. If in here we know these sites is used to dicredited islam, in other way extremist and young reader use it to justify and validate their wrong view, and i found it very ironic. They will say even western and non muslim know this (those wicked wrong interpretation or source), so you should know it or even better.

In the end they goal will be to have their own country, and the world next time. And they will have sharia law as the formal law.
What most non muslim dont understand it that full sharia law will never happen in general. They are loads of things that some sectarian and scholar wont agree of the understanding, way or even the source of law. Salafist and wahabis sharia law mostly rejected in muslim community because of the wrong understanding that can be fatal.

If western world scared of sharia, even not knowing which one, most muslim will be scared too if the sharia is salafist or wahabis version, as we can see in taliban era. Most muslim country when saying about sharia law is in simple way, like getting married, heritage, when someone die etc. Even that there are lots of dissagreement between sect or people in general.

Sorry if it is too long and not too much about mali.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

the neighbouring muslim countries have been promised "aid" in exchange of their HELP. how can there be denunciation of the "selfish goals" after this!

So, you are saying that the neighboring Muslim countries will not denounce (as in, say "this is wrong!") Al-Qaeda's 'selfish goals', because they themselves (the neighboring Muslim countires) will be "helped" by this "aid"?

Who is offering the "HELP"?
Al-Qaeda is offering "aid" for "help"?

I'm sorry, really....I'm confused about the situation. If Muslims are against violence, would they not refuse to remain silent against Al-Qaeda? Or, are they worried about being targeted next if they do speak against it??

(Like you said.....extremists have guns).

And, if that is the case,
then I guess the answer to the Original Question is:
"As long as we are being offered 'aid' in return for our 'HELP' to Al-Qaeda, we won't (or? are not in a position to?) do anything about it."

I know this sounds awful....and I realize I'm "projecting".......
I really want very much to be told I am mistaken about it.

Does Islam, in the sentiments of the majority of Muslims, disagree with the actions of Al-Qaeda in Mali?

edit on 20-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

i had said France is having "selfish goals" and i thought you have asked if there is denounciation of these "selfish goals" of france and the west by islamic countries.
Nobody wants to help al-qaeda.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

But the image of USA and west in general is bad, really bad.

And, likewise and equally, the image of Islam in the USA is bad, really bad.

Are my efforts here working to obliterate that image, just as your efforts are (hopefully) working to change the image of Islam?

i have a clear distinction between USA the bully and american people.
Actually i feel sorry about americans. Its they who are suffering as they gave up freedom for security, the FSA, gun bans etc. The hoax "terrorists are out there to get you!!!" has worked like a charm. I am not denying existence of nutjobs, just that the situation was milked by the bully to keep americans docile while it attacked countries after countries for completely different agendas.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by wildtimes

 

I

Even if muslims were to take to the streets holding signs speaking out against al-qaeda, its not going to change anything anyway. Its not like Christians and Jews would approve of muslims who speak out against al-qaeda. Fortunately, the Koran teaches us...
And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion.

I don't understand

You don't demonstrate against a group who are claiming to represent you to appease others

you demonstrate to show the group that you don't agree with their actions in your name.

Also never mind which book people read we are all human and as such i for one would salute any other human standing up against those who claim to be acting on your behalf when in reality they are acting against your wishes.

And no, i don't want you to follow any religion other than the one of your own choosing.

If you must follow any at all.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

how can there be denunciation of the "selfish goals" after this!

If Muslims are opposed to the extremist actions of Al-Qaeda on grounds of their violence, but then do not speak out against Al-Qaeda when things opposed to Islam are being done by them.....

are they not then also victims of, or ... at least giving in to.... terrorism?

Al-Qaeda is an organisation that doesnt really listen to anyone right? I also hope it really is that terrifying as MSM tells!!
A similar question to you what are americans doing when drones are killing civilians, familes, kids in pakistan? What were they doing when afghanistan and then iraq were bombed with tons of depleted uranium!!?
Do you think these actions wont bring consequences ultimately? Who will suffer then? Americans. Right? The big shots bullies will be safe in their bunkers.

reply to post by logical7
Getting back on topic.

Are there any muslims on ATS that could educate us as to the original question ?