Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Logical proof of the existence of God

page: 1
4
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join

posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 06:32 AM
link   
Premise one:

The Universe (aka All-that-is) must be infinite. Otherwise something would exist outside of the Universe (All-that-is) and thus in reality be part of the Universe (All-that-is).

Since this would go on Ad infinitum the Universe must be infinite.

Premise two:

The Universe must “update itself” (i.e. change) in a non-linear fashion all at once so that “any change is a total change” (like a 3D version of stills being projected on the silver screen).

Given premise one (the Universe is infinite), if change happened in a linear fashion (like domino’s falling) it would take an eternal amount of time for anything to happen.

Since a lot of stuff happens all the time we can conclude that the Universe updates itself all at once in a non-linear fashion.

Premise three:

Non-linear “all-at-once” update of the Universe must be caused by an omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal Intelligence, otherwise everything would be chaotic, static, random noise and not the orderly Universe we perceive.

Conclusion

Given premise one, two, and three we can conclude that there is an omnipotent, omnipresent eternal Intelligence (also known as God).




posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by VisitorQ
Premise one:

The Universe (aka All-that-is) must be infinite. Otherwise something would exist outside of the Universe (All-that-is) and thus in reality be part of the Universe (All-that-is).

Non sequitur. Why must something exist outside the universe if it is finite? By definition, nothing exists outside it if it is finite because that is all that exists. Hence, to assert this amounts to a semantic contradiction. Anyway, what do you mean by "the Universe"? The physical universe? "All-that-is" does not have to be purely physical. To assume it is without proof means that your so-called "proof" rests on an assumption and so may not amount to proof if the assumption were proved false.

Originally posted by VisitorQ
Since this would go on Ad infinitum the Universe must be infinite.

No. There is no infinite regress because you make the ad hoc assumption that something must exist outside the universe if it finite. By definition, nothing exists outside a finite universe.

Originally posted by VisitorQ
Premise two:

The Universe must “update itself” (i.e. change) in a non-linear fashion all at once so that “any change is a total change” (like a 3D version of stills being projected on the silver screen).

Given premise one (the Universe is infinite), if change happened in a linear fashion (like domino’s falling) it would take an eternal amount of time for anything to happen.

Since a lot of stuff happens all the time we can conclude that the Universe updates itself all at once in a non-linear fashion.

The proposition "the Universe is infinite is not a premise but, instead, a (faulty) inference from an ealier proposition. Given that it is not a logical inference, your conclusion is illogical as well.

Originally posted by VisitorQ
Premise three:

Non-linear “all-at-once” update of the Universe must be caused by an omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal Intelligence, otherwise everything would be chaotic, static, random noise and not the orderly Universe we perceive.

As your initial propostion is wrong, so is your inference from it.

Originally posted by VisitorQ
Conclusion
Given premise one, two, and three we can conclude that there is an omnipotent, omnipresent eternal Intelligence (also known as God).

No, we cannot, because your chain of arguments is based upon an ad hoc assumption that contradicts normal use of semantics. In other words, your argument is semantic nonsense.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:05 AM
link   
reply to post by VisitorQ
 


Even if we grant your 3 premises, it still does solve the problem of evil.


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:07 AM
link   

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by VisitorQ
 


Even if we grant your 3 premises, it still does solve the problem of evil.


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.


Inclusive of all = God. All that is.
You just want nice stuff but God provides all.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:12 AM
link   
reply to post by micpsi
 


The statement of something existing "outside the Universe" was made to illustrate the point that nothing can exist outside the Universe as long as the Universe is defined as "All-that-is".

And by All-that-is I do mean everything that exist, not just what we can perceive with our 5 senses at this time.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:12 AM
link   
Who said the Universe is infinite?

There are theories that the universe we reside in may be one of many that likewise exist.

Since there is nothing to support without doubt that your original argument is true, the rest of your argument is null and void. You have to prove that the universe in infinite and you can't.

The same thing is true about "God". You will not be able to prove, beyond a doubt, that such an entity exists. The existence of the Universe does not prove the existence of God.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:13 AM
link   
reply to post by NeverForget
 


I did not set out to solve the problem of evil in this post. I presented a logical proof of the existence of God. Nothing more and nothing less.

Evil is a consequence of free will, but that is not relevant to this thread. Please stick to the topic.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:14 AM
link   
reply to post by VisitorQ
 


The premise you present is flawed because the Universe is not orderly as we perceive but is chaotic all the time.
and thusly does not prove the presence of a imagined and fictional entity with powers of creation.

I already know the truth of how this Universe was created and to know that you have to investigate for yourself the introduced concept of Universe B and particular Occult Sciences.
edit on 20-1-2013 by Tindalos2013 because: Typo



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:16 AM
link   
reply to post by wdkirk
 


I define "the Universe" as "All-that-is" which includes everything (including "other Universes" if that is so).

All-that-is cannot have any "end" because that would be a separation to something existing outside All-that-is which is absurd, since All-that-is is all that is...



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:17 AM
link   
It seems to be a similar logical fallacy that is proposed in the "watchmaker" analogy.



1) The complex inner workings of a watch necessitate an intelligent designer.
2) As with a watch, the complexity of X (a particular organ or organism, the structure of the solar system, life, the universe, anything complex) necessitates a designer.


If you are not referring to God as a "designer" then you a playing a game of semantics.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:21 AM
link   
reply to post by Tindalos2013
 


By orderly I mean that the frame following the next makes sense.

To illustrate: The Universe is not updated so that when you see a bird flying suddenly it's ten meter behind where it was and suddenly a mile away or suddenly just a feather and then a bird again...



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by VisitorQ
Premise one:

The Universe (aka All-that-is) must be infinite. Otherwise something would exist outside of the Universe (All-that-is) and thus in reality be part of the Universe (All-that-is).

Since this would go on Ad infinitum the Universe must be infinite.

Premise two:

The Universe must “update itself” (i.e. change) in a non-linear fashion all at once so that “any change is a total change” (like a 3D version of stills being projected on the silver screen).

Given premise one (the Universe is infinite), if change happened in a linear fashion (like domino’s falling) it would take an eternal amount of time for anything to happen.

Since a lot of stuff happens all the time we can conclude that the Universe updates itself all at once in a non-linear fashion.

Premise three:

Non-linear “all-at-once” update of the Universe must be caused by an omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal Intelligence, otherwise everything would be chaotic, static, random noise and not the orderly Universe we perceive.

Conclusion

Given premise one, two, and three we can conclude that there is an omnipotent, omnipresent eternal Intelligence (also known as God).


I think you will find that the latest and likely understanding about the universe is that it is in fact not infinite.
The universe is not a software programme.
And everything is chaotic from which order comes.
NO GOD!!



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:23 AM
link   
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


God allows evil just like you allow evil. Because in eternity, all things are found and balanced with the cycle of time.

You call him God because it is a sign of respect.

God may not be very well-known, or very well-respected at this juncture, but he is eternal and he is All-Forgiving and just a neat person to know.

You respect him like you respect a small furry creature or a homeless man.

God's home is the Cosmos.

He lives and makes to live, forever.

He is the eternal source of refreshment for weary travelers.

He can be known by anyone regardless of their condition, if he so deems fit.

Perhaps you do not know because to learn about God, you must be separated from Him.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:24 AM
link   
reply to post by RP2SticksOfDynamite
 


If it's so finite as you say, what is beyond that line in the sand that ends the Universe?



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:25 AM
link   
reply to post by PnezakYahakotima
 


I did not learn about God.
The OP has posted that this thread is not about evil and would like to stick to topic.
edit on 20-1-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:25 AM
link   
Because there is no Life without God.

God allows ignorance.

God allows disagreements.

God allows all the horrifying events that occur.

Why? Because it is a surprise.... that's why.

Naughty little humans, trying to open your presents early!



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:27 AM
link   
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Did not or will never?

There's a difference, unless you ARE God.... in which case, there would be no disagreement here.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by PnezakYahakotima
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Did not or will never?

There's a difference, unless you ARE God.... in which case, there would be no disagreement here.


I was lost but now am found. I am.
Know thyself.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:35 AM
link   
Oh at the God School where the people yell at you and beat you with measuring sticks?

Don't blame God for something which you probably understand little of, which is the depth of your own pain and suffering.

"Oh I suffer!!! I fear!!!"

As do I.

I consider it an honor, because it makes me real, helps me learn... helps me learn what is Just, as opposed to what is unjust.

Even your enemies can teach you something.

If your enemy is God, then you're looking in the wrong direction for God.

God forgot you were even asking about Him. He was too busy doodling a picture of a kitty for everyone.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by VisitorQ
reply to post by RP2SticksOfDynamite
 


If it's so finite as you say, what is beyond that line in the sand that ends the Universe?


Research current thinking for a correct and logical explaination that the U is finite.





new topics

top topics



 
4
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join