Vatican Sides with Obama on Gun Control

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

I didn't evade anything. I'm being VERY careful to stay on topic - and the topic is the Country of the Vatican siding with Obama on Gun Control. This isn't the religious debate forum. Speculating on what Jesus would do is impossible and maybe even off topic.

The Vatican...

Why are we concerned with anything the Vatican says?

I was under the impression that the Pope was Gods frontman here on planet earth

Am I wrong?

:-)

It is on topic - though no doubt you wish it weren't

Why bring religion into this if you are completely unwilling to discuss religion?

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


they should focus on the salvation of souls as stated in their mission statement. Things pertaining to this world are mans domain. They are specialized in things NOT of this world. Looks like they are going down the road of the Jesuits, but just siding with the status quo instead of opposing it in the name of justice........

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

they should focus on the salvation of souls as stated in their mission statement. Things pertaining to this world are mans domain. They are specialized in things NOT of this world. Looks like they are going down the road of the Jesuits, but just siding with the status quo instead of opposing it in the name of justice........

So, educate me then -

religious folk - and religious leaders - can go on and on and preach whatever they want...

But - people can just go ahead and do whatever the hell they want regardless

got it

:-)

thanks

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Why are we concerned with anything the Vatican says?

Because the country of The Vatican is trying to influence our laws.
So everyone should be concerned when another country tries to do that to us.

I was under the impression that the Pope was Gods frontman here on planet earth
Am I wrong?

Dunno. Ask God.

It is on topic - though no doubt you wish it weren't

Another - - Wrong. Don't try to guess what I want and don't want. You won't get it correct. Like I said, discussing religious dogma may or may not be something that can be in this forum. I DO NOT KNOW. This is not the religious forum and speculating about what Jesus may or may not say to this issue is pretty much impossible. What part of - I am trying to stay on topic - don't you get?

As i said .. Jesus said 'turn the other cheek when slapped'. He didn't say 'stand there and let mentally ill people murder you and your family even if you have the means to stop it'. That's silly.

Why bring religion into this if you are completely unwilling to discuss religion?

YOU are the one who asked 'what would Jesus do?'. Not me.
YOU brought up religion. Not me.
If you want to see if it''ll fly with the mods .. go ahead and discuss it.
I have no idea if it's on topic or not so I'm being careful with it in this forum ...

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


how the hell did you get THAT from my response.

I am a former catholic. I have gone to catholic school for over 14 years. I was very devout. I know what I am talking about.

They are only in existence for the SALVATION OF SOULS. They had a HUGE falling out with the Jesuits for worrying about worldly affairs. The Jesuits always sided with peasants and slaves and FOUGHT with the provincial powers of the Territories in which they worked for social justice and even revolutionary justice.

This is not "news". If you had any idea about the subject you would know this. You are then in a position to listen and learn, not preach and teach.

The catholic church is not a human rights watch dog. It is a faith primarily concerned with saving our souls from the eternal judgment of God. THATS IT.

But, you dont care. You want to make up what their purpose is all of a sudden to suit your purpose now.


Please look up the vows a priest takes and see what I am talking about....I HAVE.

Despite all the controversy surrounding the Vatican and the "wickedness" that is reported...let's just look at the base elements. Of course the religious leaders of Christianity want to see an end to violence...an end to murder...ya know that is a Commandment after all...thou shall not kill...which we all know means "murder"...warfare is a totally different monster.

I am not a Catholic and I do not understand the religion very well. I do not mock them or hate them. I just do not understand them and admittedly, I do not invest any time trying to. Just like I do not understand the Jehovah's witnesses...and I do not try to understand them either. I have read their doctrines and they are free to believe whatever they choose to believe...I do not have to like it or agree with it to afford them their "freedom of religion".

We are in the midst of a profound quandary. As a "to the bone" Libertarian, I do not want to see anyone's rights stepped on. I believe people should be able to live free. I want everyone to be free and as long as your freedom does not impede upon my freedom, I do not care what you do. I also have a slight touch of humanitarian in me. I do not like to see people suffer and die...it hurts my spirit. All of these conversations of "control"...seems to shadow the true problem...we are missing something that is right under our noses and no one can seem to put a finger on it. I believe...and hate on me all you want...we are missing discipline. We do not teach disipline at young ages anymore...we do not make youth come to terms with the idea that their are ramifications for not playing by the rules of decent conduct. When I was a kid, you got your ass busted for doing "bad things"...it taught you there are repercussions for your actions. If you do good...the repercussions are in the form of rewards...if you do bad, the repercussions are disciplinary actions...why is this so hard for our puke society to understand?

If you do bad things, you should be punished....and what is bad things? Causing pain and grief on others for no reason. I believe we need to go back to whooping that butt. As a kid, I learned if I did bad things, I was going to be punished. I remember getting "cracks" in junior high and high school...some "executioners" of that policy were seriously feared. Our woodshop teacher had a paddle called "white lightning" made from rock maple and I do not care how "tough guy" you were....when that slab of wood contacted with your ass...you WERE going to tear up...Teachers name was Chavanak...and he was a brilliant woodworker...but he knew how to put the fire in the seat of your pants....ok...kinda veering off topic....

In religions...you should not kill...it's pretty across the board. I do not agree with the nuts and bolts of religions, but I do understand the viewpoint from which they speak. I just happen to disagree with them.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
religious folk - and religious leaders - can go on and on and preach whatever they want...
But - people can just go ahead and do whatever the hell they want regardless

Of course. 'Religious folk' all contradict each other and at the same time they all say that they are the only ones who are correct and everyone else is wrong. OBVIOUSLY common sense should rule the day.

The Vatican trying to impose its political values (if you can call fascist disarming of law abiding citizens 'values') on Americans is unwelcome. Just as the USA trying to impose it's political values on other nations is unwelcome in those places. Same/same.

reply to post by Jeremiah65


Maybe they want to see an end to violence and murder ... or maybe they are euro-centric anti-American and fascist NWO zealots who have their own corrupt agenda for wanting to disarm peaceful law abiding American citizens who own guns simply to protect themselves.

(considering the many statements that have come out of the Vatican in regards to them telling the USA how it should run it's country .. like throwing wide open the borders and having total open immigration .. I'm leaning towards the darker reason for their anti-gun statement)

This isn't a matter of religious freedom and it's not a matter of American Catholics having their rights stepped on or anything like that ...

It's purely political. One country (the Vatican) telling another country (the USA) that it doesn't think it's law abiding citizens should be able to protect itself even though the Constitution of that country says the people have that right. IMHO THAT is what is going on ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


This entire thread is about religion Flyers

:-)

Sorry - but it's true - should have thought about that when you wrote your OP

You don't believe the Pope is infallible - I understand

The Vatican is a sovereign nation - yes, we know - but it's a sovereign nation based on - what? Is it the same as Sweden? France? Botswana? No, I think the Vatican is unique - wouldn't you agree?

God's law is different from the laws of the Vatican?

God's words are meaningless when it comes to gun control?

A person's personal beliefs have no bearing on any of this?

I'm confused...what is this about?

Why do we care what the Vatican says?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
This entire thread is about religion Flyers

From your point of view ... you are welcome to think that.

You don't believe the Pope is infallible - I understand

The belief of 'papal infallibility' isn't what people think it is. It is when the pope speaks 'ex cathedra' from the Chair of St. Peter on matters of THEOLOGY (like the dogma of Theotokos). This isn't a matter of theology.

The Vatican is a sovereign nation - yes, we know - but it's a sovereign nation based on - what?

There are human laws and 'Gods laws' intermingled in The Vatican.
The corrupt Vatican Bank is proof that how the Vatican runs isn't all 'of God'.

God's law is different from the laws of the Vatican?

As I said ... obviously there are human laws and 'gods laws' both that the Vatican has to abide by. They also go outside the law often and run on their own agenda.

God's words are meaningless when it comes to gun control?

Show me a law of God's that says human beings have to allow themselves to be murdered by insane people when they could protect themselves and their families??

A person's personal beliefs have no bearing on any of this?

A persons' religious beliefs have nothing to do with the Vatican wanting to disarm law abiding Americans, even though the American Constitution says those Americans have a right to defend themselves with firearms.

Why do we care what the Vatican says?

Asked and answered previously. The COUNTRY of the Vatican is attempting to impose it's agenda on the law abiding citizens of the USA. Everyone should care when another country looks to position itself to try to supersede our Constitution.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

how the hell did you get THAT from my response.

from this:

they should focus on the salvation of souls as stated in their mission statement.

Things pertaining to this world are mans domain.

you then seriously offer us this:

The catholic church is not a human rights watch dog. It is a faith primarily concerned with saving our souls from the eternal judgment of God. THATS IT.

How is one's soul saved zedVSzardoz, if not by living your faith? Actually living it?

How is what you do by law - the laws of men - separate from the laws of your God?

All this because I asked - what would Jesus say about guns?

I think it's a logical question - the Vatican being widely recognized as a special patch of God's turf

So far all I get is - Jesus says stuff...but we pretty much do what we want anyhow

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
what would Jesus say about guns?

Show us where Jesus says that we all should just sit back and allow ourselves to be murdered by crazy people when in fact we could instead protect ourselves and our families from them? Jesus never said to be a door mat ...

To claim that Jesus would tell innocent people to be anti-self-defense in the face of murder ...
Well, I'd like to see it in print. Show us the scripture quote please ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


I politely disagree FF....I do not think it has anything to do with being "euro centric"...it is about the application of a belief system that says it is NOT ok to kill.

I understand there is huge fear that the socialist agenda is coming to roost here in the USA. I do not see it that way. I somewhat agree that there is an Agenda at work here but I do not think it is the Vatican's fault...it is the powers behind the barbed curtain...using the doctrine of relgion...the doctrine of "peace"...to guilt everyone into compliance.

The ideals of religion are not horrible...but like just about anything else, to the clever mind...they can be twisted and manipulated to serve a goal. TPTB want to return to the days of absolute power...to feudalism...to slavery. They are so convinced that they are superior...even down to the genetic level...that they just do not understand why the sheep don't lay down and conform. The non conformists have their means to resist and that is what this is about....removing that means to resist. Religion, sadly like many times in history, is being used.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


All I have done is state the facts as any Catholic has been taught them. I am a FORMER Catholic. I didn't say Jesus said or God said.....

I hate quoting Scripture. What I have stated is the fact that all Catholics and especially so the men of the cloth are to be primarily concerned with the salvation of souls. This is irrefutable.

You still have not explained your point so I will assume your post was more an attack on me personally rather than an actual argument with any point to be made.

Also you can decide to save your soul how ever you wish. CATHOLICS did not ask for any input in that subject. They think they have a good system.

Worldly affairs are not a Catholics concern. That is what we are taught.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
I politely disagree FF...

I do not think it has anything to do with being "euro centric"...it is about the application of a belief system that says it is NOT ok to kill.

If the Vatican really thought it was not okay to kill, then they wouldn't be trying to take self protection away from law abiding citizens. Their position saves NO ONE and only encourages more death at the hands of criminals and insane people.

BTW - I say 'eurocentric' because of many things that have come out of the Vatican .. not just this.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Show us where Jesus says that we all should just sit back and allow ourselves to be murdered by crazy people when in fact we could instead protect ourselves and our families from them? Jesus never said to be a door mat ...

To claim that Jesus would tell innocent people to be anti-self-defense in the face of murder ...
Well, I'd like to see it in print. Show us the scripture quote please ...

FlyersFan - I can't show you any scripture that supports your position - or argues against it

Funny that

:-)

So - the Pope is wrong - guns are a good thing?

And this isn't about religion - it's about international law?

I was mistaken - apparently - things are much clearer now

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
So - the Pope is wrong - guns are a good thing?

Self defense is a good thing.
Guns can be good when used by law abiding citizens as self defense.

And this isn't about religion - it's about international law?

It's about one country pushing it's agenda on another.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

I will assume your post was more an attack on me personally rather than an actual argument with any point to be made.

Why on earth would you assume that?

My point couldn't be more clear

I see the Bible conveniently quoted and used as a political tool - until it becomes inconvenient

You've said - several times (whether you realize it or not - and now I'm seeing you don't) that religion is separate from government

The saving of souls is completely separate from worldly affairs

The Vatican has no business meddling in humanitarian issues - because of course that would begin stepping on political toes

The Vatican has an in in this country that can't (necessarily) be controlled by paying off politicians

For some people - this must be very worrisome

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
How is one's soul saved zedVSzardoz, if not by living your faith? Actually living it?
All this because I asked - what would Jesus say about guns?
I think it's a logical question - the Vatican being widely recognized as a special patch of God's turf
So far all I get is - Jesus says stuff...but we pretty much do what we want anyhow

Our Messiah's disciples carried swords during his ministry, as evident when they could produce 2 swords on the table immediately when he told them to buy swords, to fulfil the prophecy of his mortal end times.

Those swords carried all the while were for defence, and at no time did the disciples provoke or cause any violence, except during the arrest of our Messiah, which he stopped it. One who lives by the sword will die by the sword, he said. This is a simple truth. When you pull the trigger, the other party too will have a gun and pull the trigger too.

Weapons will kill us all, but when we use it only for defence and not provoke violence, we will most certainly get to live longer, while those who sought to harm or kill by the sword, will themselves face chances of death with much permanence.

However, our Messiah's ministry is not about weapons, but rather, on the soul and salvation of mankind, to follow moral and ethical guidelines so that we may all co-exists in peace, progress and evolve. The focus was on helping and enlightening mankind in world that had gone astray, and still is today, and enlightenment do takes time.

May the pope not lose that focus, but who is instead focusing on inanimate objects as he is doing now.