A Very Simple Christian Conspiracy That Most Do Not Know, page 2


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reply posted on 20-1-2013 @ 10:26 PM by NOTurTypical
Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to
post by NOTurTypical



Sounds like most christian churches to me.


Not me, and i have been to a ton of different ones in several denominations. Besides that, I doubt you've been to more than 5 different churches, let alone "most" of them.


reply posted on 20-1-2013 @ 11:03 PM by TKDRL
reply to post by adjensen



I think you misunderstood, all christian churches claim to follow that charismatic jesus dude, correct?


reply posted on 21-1-2013 @ 05:52 AM by eight bits
This is a funny controversy. It is true that the shape of the execution instrument typically used by Romans is poorly documented. No Roman field manual for the exactor mortis survives. It is entirely possible that there was no uniform, ecumen-wide regulation shape.

The question before us is where did the Christian idea come from that Jesus, in particular, died on something with the now-familiar shape, a horizontal piece on a vertical fixture, with the vertical extending above Jesus' head? Whether or not that is accurate, does the idea originate from outside the Christian movement?

All four Gospels agree that Jesus died with a titulus identifyng him as "King of the Jews." Mark and John dosn't say where the titulus was mounted, but Matthew and Luke place it above him. I believe the order of the Gospels to be such, then, that the first and last Gospels do not say where the titulus was, but the second and third do. (I don't know adj's current views on the order, but we have long agreed that John is last, so some earlier Gospels have the detail, and one doesn't).

The lack of uniformity or simple adoption of the detail argue against the importation of the idea of an overhead placard from somewhere else. There is no early record of disputation about the detail that I know of, either. If the titulus is envisioned to be above Jesus' head, then it is natural enough to imagine that it was held in place at a high end of the instrument, although other arrangments are possible.

While the Gospels allow wiggle room for the shape of the cross, the source for the now-familiar shape is plausibly some of the Christian Gospels, the shape in question being a simple amplification of the idea that a sign was placed above his head, itself an amplification that there was a placard at all.

Cross pieces are also a common human visualization of places where time and eternity meet. In visual art, a well placed intersection is an accessible solution to the problem of focusing the viewer's eye on Jesus' expression, despite the impact of his bodily disposition. Attributing the appearance of species-wide symbols, simple engineering solutions, or professional artistic craft elements in Christianity to fantastic "pagan borrowings" borders on the absurd.
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edit on 21-1-2013 by eight bits because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 21-1-2013 @ 06:58 AM by dogstar23
reply to post by Rubicant13



I've heard this before, but never understood why people made a big deal about such things. Does such minutiae affect your spirituality, or your understanding of life and purpose on Earth. Does the exact method of Jesus' death affect whether you understand the message of His sacrifice and of His rebirth? If the soil under his feet at the crucifixion (or staking) was black, and people understood it to be tan, would that branch of Christians be considered fooled, and on the wrong path? Personally, I don't think the Faith changes one bit, even if Jesus was hung by his ankles from a tree to bleed out - amd I never have understood why it matters to some people. Historians maybe, religious folk, well, it just simply doesn't make sense to give a damn about such minutiae.


reply posted on 21-1-2013 @ 08:18 AM by adjensen
Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to
post by adjensen



I think you misunderstood, all christian churches claim to follow that charismatic jesus dude, correct?

No, they claim to follow God, incarnate in the person of Jesus.

How is that the same thing as a cult who claims that their non-divine preacher is "the sole voice of God in this age" and then turns up a crapload of wrong prophecies, demonstrating that the only voices he hears are the ones rattling around in his head?


reply posted on 21-1-2013 @ 07:39 PM by swordwords
reply to post by Rubicant13



Here is something else to think about. Isn't it interesting that the "stauros" is only a single letter more than "tauros"? Could the "cross" actually serve as a substitute for the Mithros' "bull"? I base this speculation on the idea of the "correctness of names" described in Plato's Cratylus. If there is a connection, then we might also wonder about the Apostle Paul's supposed home of Tarsus.


reply posted on 27-1-2013 @ 07:46 AM by BlueMule
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to
post by NOTurTypical



Sounds like most christian churches to me.


Not me, and i have been to a ton of different ones in several denominations. Besides that, I doubt you've been to more than 5 different churches, let alone "most" of them.


Oh? Do you see God in all religions, then? Or just in Christianity? Do you see world religion and myth as a single unit, like a grand cosmic symphony with a variety of instruments that share a heritage... a fundamental unity... and are guided by a transcendent Divine harmony?

Or do you see it as a kind of us-vs-them scenario, with a boogey-man devil or mere human wisdom lurking behind all religions except Christianity?

Forgive me for being blunt but it seems that typical Christians have selective, localized hearing. I'm sick of it. They only hear their particular instrument among the grand cosmic symphony of religions. Going to a ton of different Christian churches in several Christian denominations doesn't count as non-local hearing.

When you give me a straight answer I guess we'll see how typical you really are.

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia, have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain. For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science."


-Joseph Campbell

edit on 27-1-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 27-1-2013 @ 12:04 PM by NOTurTypical
reply to post by BlueMule



You seem to have me mistaken for one of your children. I dont take orders from anyone on here.

Good day.


reply posted on 28-1-2013 @ 04:35 PM by Blue_Jay33
Star & a flag for the OP.

The Koine Greek terms used in the New Testament of the gibbet on which Jesus died are stauros (σταυρός) and xylon (ξύλον).

The Greek word generally translated “cross” is stau·ros′. It basically means “an upright pale or stake.” The Companion Bible points out: “[Stau·ros′] never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the [New Testament] even to imply two pieces of timber.”
In several texts, Bible writers use another word for the instrument of Jesus’ death. It is the Greek word xy′lon. (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24) This word simply means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree.”

Explaining why a simple stake was often used for executions, the book Das Kreuz und die Kreuzigung (The Cross and the Crucifixion), by Hermann Fulda, states: “Trees were not everywhere available at the places chosen for public execution. So a simple beam was sunk into the ground. On this the outlaws, with hands raised upward and often also with their feet, were bound or nailed.”

The most convincing proof of all, however, comes from God’s Word. The apostle Paul says: “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake [“a tree,” King James Version].’” (Galatians 3:13) Here Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, which clearly refers to a stake, not a cross.

The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons, explains: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross.”

As to how a sign was affixed to the stake, someone said there was not room, sure there was.
I just did a quick Google image search for Christ on a Torture stake.

Torture Stake with sign

So here is the deal, there is enough evidence that at the very least throws the cross into serious question, and if it wasn't used at all, and is an import from paganism, that means one thing, idolatry.

A very slick way for Satan to trick sincere Christians into it, by them thinking they are honoring Jesus and his sacrifice. Remember Satan is ultra evil, he is also incredibly intelligent he can think centuries ahead of the common man and plan his moves like a chess player, as humans due to our short life spans we are thinking a few moves at most. Whereas Satan is always 30 moves ahead of human civilization and any spirituality it might develop towards God and how he can sabotage it, making it invalid, and yet allowing people to think and feel they are doing what God wants.

Do you think he has had success in this area?
edit on 28-1-2013 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)

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