Why did God deceive people in the Bible?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


So you don't think Allah is a deceiver yet you think he out-deceived people? How does that work?

And no, I don't think it's right to kill innocent people, though I'm sure your god does since he went around killing all the first-borns in Egypt that one time. Oh, and the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah.

Do you think it's okay to kill innocent people?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


No one believes that it's "right" for an innocent man to be killed, but God did say that he would use the work of evil as a tool to accomplish his own will in order to make everything right in the end. That's just what he did. Jesus' death allowed all of us the opportunity to spend eternity with God. Jesus came to "fulfill" the law and the law at that time required a "perfect sacrifice" in order for sin to be forgiven.

reply to post by Deetermined


Why though? Couldn't god have just forgiven them without killing his son in the process? Of course he could have, so why was Jesus' death necessary?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So you don't think Allah is a deceiver yet you think he out-deceived people? How does that work?

IMO Out-deceiving someone who is out to deceive you is.... brilliant.

Either way, the verse in question tells us that there were people plotting against Jesus.
God, in Jesus' defense plotted back against them and prevailed.

And no, I don't think it's right to kill innocent people, though I'm sure your god does since he went around killing all the first-borns in Egypt that one time. Oh, and the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah.

All those souls were in the hands of God to begin with,
But, get a Christian opinion anyway. Perhaps they have better answers,.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


You'll have to ask God that question, but I think God through/as Jesus wanted to experience everything a human experienced, and that included a human death. I think he mainly did it to prove his love for his children, to show that he wasn't a hypocrite.

In my opinion, it makes sense. If your children never mind you and you can't understand why they do what they do, come down and experience everything they do and hold their hand in the process, while saving them from themselves along the way.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


So Allah out-deceives people but he doesn't deceive people... gotcha.

If those people were in the hands of god then why destroy them? If they were in the hands of god then why didn't he just make the bad guys fall over dead instead raining fire and brimstone on EVERYONE? Doesn't seem like a very compassionate thing for a compassionate god to do, does it?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


This is just my opinion, but I think God is going to take all of the firstborn that were killed in Egypt and after the exodus out of Egypt and bring them back to live during the Millennial 1,000 years of peace here on earth.

reply to post by Deetermined


But god knows everything, so how could he not have known why we did certain things or what human death was like?

Also, if god wanted to experience a human death (which he already knew about anyways) then why did he raise himself up? It's not a sacrifice if the person doesn't end up dying in the end.

reply to post by Deetermined


I appreciate your replies, I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just presenting questions that should get you thinking instead of just accepting.

So do you know they will be brought back or do you just assume, therefor "know" in your own mind? It seems like a waste of time and energy for god to first create these babies then turn around and kill them for no apparent reason.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So Allah out-deceives people but he doesn't deceive people... gotcha.

Depends who you listen to.
A muslim would tell you Allah schemed / plotted back against those who plotted / schemed against Jesus.
A christian would read the same verse (in question) and tell you Allah is a deceiver. Its up to you who you want to listen to. I've already explained in the OP.

If those people were in the hands of god then why destroy them? If they were in the hands of god then why didn't he just make the bad guys fall over dead instead raining fire and brimstone on EVERYONE? Doesn't seem like a very compassionate thing for a compassionate god to do, does it?

Taking your idea further... wouldn't it be better for everybody if God allowed only the "good" babies to exit the womb?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


So you choose to ignore logic here? If Allah is not a deceiver then he would not deceive people, ever. But he says so himself that he does. It seems like to me that you're ignoring the word of Allah if you think he doesn't deceive.

When's the last time you saw a baby come out with anger in its eyes or who started killing others? There's no such thing as a bad baby, only bad surroundings.

I'll turn your question around on you. If god is omnipotent and knows what babies will be bad and what babies will be good, then why doesn't he kill the bad babies while they are in the womb? If he knows they will be bad people and make the world a worse place and if he truly wanted peace on Earth, then why does he let them do as they please?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

It seems like to me that you're ignoring the word of Allah if you think he doesn't deceive.

I believe that Allah will out-deceive those who live by deceiving others.

I think its brilliant that Allah outwits the deceivers. Woe upon those who try to challenge God.

In fact, I rejoice in the fact that God is in complete control and that the godless powers-that-be who are trying to scheme against us have absolutely no idea what they are up against. That summarizes the end times. God willing, Jesus will return soon to establish final victory.

They will plot and scheme to screw us all over, whether we are Christian or Muslim.... and God, will out-plot and out-scheme them.... and give the evil plotters and schemers a taste of their own medicine. They will have no helpers on the day of judgement.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


If you believe he will out-deceive others then how do you know he hasn't out-deceived you? What if Allah isn't god but a man-made construct invented in order to "out-deceive" the people? Since you believe there are powerful people who deceive others then how do you know Allah isn't part of their deception?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Deetermined

 

But god knows everything, so how could he not have known why we did certain things or what human death was like?

You're right, he does know everything, so he probably did it because he loved us and didn't want us to think he was a hypocrite.

Also, if god wanted to experience a human death (which he already knew about anyways) then why did he raise himself up? It's not a sacrifice if the person doesn't end up dying in the end.

Look at it this way. First of all, Christ raised himself up to prove that everyone else would be raised up too.

Secondly, for anyone who thinks that it's not a "real" sacrifice unless Christ gave up his entire existence, what difference does it make to Christ? Just because Christ was raised from the dead doesn't mean that his death is any less real. If he didn't raise from the dead, he wouldn't remember what kind of sacrifice he made or who he did it for anyway, so why would it matter? Would that somehow make it "more" real if that's the way it turned out?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So do you know they will be brought back or do you just assume, therefor "know" in your own mind? It seems like a waste of time and energy for god to first create these babies then turn around and kill them for no apparent reason.

I have no idea. I'm only speculating.

I only wonder, like you, if there wasn't another purpose for these babies later down the road. I'm still trying to figure out who all will be living during the Millennial period. I can't help but think that God's going to bring these Egyptian and Israelite babies back into the land and force them to grow up and live in peace with each other.

reply to post by Deetermined


A hypocrite to what? What did he think we thought he was being hypocritical about? Why would he care anyways?

So Jesus made himself rise from the dead, back into the same body, in order to show us that that's what's going to happen to us? That we would rise from the dead into the same body? But I thought we received new bodies once we are resurrected.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Deetermined

 

A hypocrite to what? What did he think we thought he was being hypocritical about? Why would he care anyways?

My line of thinking on this one was based on the idea that Jesus is God. People would have been less likely to consider the God of the Old Testament as hypocritical for killing nonbelievers if he came to earth as a human to die himself. I hope that helps to make sense of what I'm talking about.

So Jesus made himself rise from the dead, back into the same body, in order to show us that that's what's going to happen to us? That we would rise from the dead into the same body? But I thought we received new bodies once we are resurrected.

Close. We're going to rise from the dead in a body that looks the same, but it's going to be an incorruptible body, not a human decaying body. They will be different. It will be transformed.

reply to post by Deetermined


While I see your point, it doesn't make sense to me. People are going to believe or not believe in the OT god one way or the other, it doesn't matter if he sent Jesus to die or not. Again, why would god even care whether we thought he was a hypocrite or not? He's all knowing, we're not, so why would he care what we think? He knows the truth even though we may not.

ETA: As for your second point, Jesus didn't rise from the dead in an incorruptible body, he rose in the same body that he died in, hand wounds and all.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

ETA: As for your second point, Jesus didn't rise from the dead in an incorruptible body, he rose in the same body that he died in, hand wounds and all.

Jesus resurrected into a transformed body. This is how he was able to "appear in the midst" and enter a locked room without opening the door when he went to visit his disciples after his resurrection.

It is my opinion that the only reason Jesus appeared before his disciples with wounded hands and a pierced side is because this was one of the things Thomas said he needed to see to believe it was really him and Jesus accommodated him. He didn't have to appear that way, but he did.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Siberbat

 

Well, I know God has His reasons to do whatever He does.
There was no need to explain the context of those verses. This thread was specifically aimed at Christians calling Allah "the deceiver".... when the bible itself shows that God has deceived people. Clearly such Christians don't seem to know their own bibles too well.

So....people living in glass houses should know what not to do.

Actually, it is Muslims who call Allah a deceiver, and not just a deceiver, but the Best of deceivers. Consider the following:

"and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers"

Sura 3:54

Sura 3:54 Arabic: Wa Makaru wa makara Allah wa Allah Amkaru al Makireen.

Likewise the phrase of Allah "being the best deceiver". kheir ol makarein, is also used of Allah in Suras 8:30 and 10:21. Sura 10:21 says Allah is the fastest in planning/deceit

Other references to the plotting/deceit/scheming of Allah are Sura 7:99; 27:50; 13:42; 14:46; 43:79; 86:15f.; 7:100; 4:142

Yet English translations of the Qur’an typically have a softer phrase, as Appendix I shows. So in these verses, specifically how should this word be more accurately translated, and generally, what is the role of deception in Islam?

Etymology of the Word Makara

Sura 3:54 says that Allah makara. The Arabic word makara means to deceive, scheme, or plan. The Arabic Bible in Genesis 3:1 uses the same word for Satan. However, the Vand Dyck and Jerusalem Bibles use the root word hayala.

This word "schemer" (maakir) is a very strong word which Wehr and Abdel-Nour define as "sly, cunning, wily". The Arabic-Arabic unjid defines it with khuda`a which means exactly the same thing (by Bill Campbell in his book The Qur'an and the Bible in the Light of History and Science p.217-218).

Interpretation of Sura 3:54

The person who is a makir (same form as the word kafir) speaking of the attribute of a person is one who would outwit someone else to cause them harm. It speaks of one who would reveal the opposite of what he plans to do. The reality is that he is scheming evil for that person. So yes there is the sense of planning and scheming but mostly it means to trick, outwit and deceive for the purpose of overpowering and conquering the other. A makir is one who devises a secret scheme against someone else. Synonyms would be cheating, defrauding, double-crossing, deceiving, tricking, in all cases makara has the sense of defeating the one you have tricked.

The Context of Sura 3:54

The context of this story is very important. Sura 3 is regarded to be the great dialogue of Muhammad with the Christians. Al-Tabari says here that the deceit of Allah applies to the time where the Jews wanted to kill Isa the son of Mary. In order not to be killed Allah put the appearance of Jesus’ face on someone else, who was crucified instead of Jesus. This is how Allah had everybody, even Jesus get deceived.

Strikingly when it comes to the cross, the very central part of biblical teaching, Allah is called khayr ulmakirin the most deceitful. Some one wants to conceal that he lost the battle on the cross! Here the true nature of Allah is revealed!

Here are some other names for Allah. These are from the 99 names of Allah:
المميت Al-Mumīt The Destroyer, The Bringer of Death
الضار Aḍ-Ḍārr The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor
المذل Al-Muḏill The Giver of Dishonour
المتكبر Al-Mutakabbir The Most Proud

So I don't see in your OP how this is a Christian concept, as by definition, muslims are taught that Allah is The Greatest, The Destroyer, The Destreesor, The Giver of Dishonour, The Most Proud, and The Best of the Deceivers.
And as you didn't want to even comment on my other post, I'll have to assume this thread is a troll thread on Christianity.
So I leave you with this:

Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."(Matthew 7:6)