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Patriots don't secede

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posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by HopSkipJump
Perhaps a new "Constitutional Convention" held by a group of people who want to ensure the Constitution is the guiding factor in our country and the Constitution is used to make the changes that need to be made,


And even that is a point of debate
Some see the constitution as stagnant for all time...nothing more needed
Some see the constitution as a living, breathing entity that should be tailored as the country grows and changes.

The founding fathers..well, at least Jefferson, is quoted as suggesting it needs to change over time...and change it does...with amendments.
But ya, we are arguing with step 1 of that...what is the role of the constitution..is it the foundation that things are built on, or is it the roof that nothing may go beyond.




posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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You claimed "inventers were taught in government run schools". Obviously many were not and that was my point.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
It would be a different form of government than we presently use. I'm not sure I would be 100% in support of it for various reasons that I would really have to think through, but I do respect your opinion on it and see it as viable, perhaps not my first choice, but viable.


Well, I am not a fan of a republic...and certainly not a democracy. It is the best of a bad lot for now.
But soon enough, my preferred government, a Technocracy, will be viable (requires some tech to truly be effective..make sure all data is solid sort of thing..but still could be instituted in its beginning stages now.


Technocracy is a form of government in which experts in technology would be in control of all decision making. Scientists, engineers, and technologists who have knowledge, expertise, or skills, would compose the governing body, instead of politicians, businessmen, and economists. In a technocracy, decision makers would be selected based upon how knowledgeable and skillful they are in their field.


I prefer a consensus of experts making decisions on a certain field over a politician, and far over some person whom only knows a 3 word catch phrase about a entire subject.


Although I respect your opinion, that does kind of scare me in a way. Granted, the human element is the cause for the corruption, but it's also the cause for the happiness that can result.

I can see the problems with allowing a say for all when so many today seem to be so "stupid" for lack of a better term. Many don't even try to comprehend things, they are so lazy, so greedy, they don't want to learn, they have no desire for truthful knowledge, they just want to believe what sounds good to them instead of exploring and understanding what proof is and isn't.

The term "Philosopher Kings" comes to mind that I remember discussing in one of my college classes years ago. The idea was that the most intelligent, the experts in the field, rose to be the ruling class as far as decisions and laws and the higher up you were in the pyramid, the less money and worldly goods you had because you had no use for them. The "riches" and "goods" were at the base of the pyramid where the majority of the population was... I'll have to do a google search to refresh my memory on the system that was described or I'm sure someone here on the forum may be able to clarify.

I guess it all boils down to software only being as good as the people who designed it. It also gives me a feeling of "The Matrix" and "Terminator" movies which makes me a little uncomfortable, but of course that's due to the manipulation I've suffered as a result of movies



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by HopSkipJump
 




I really don't care what you believe. You are nothing to me and your opinion doesn't affect me in any way. You are being childish and attackful.



again with your name calling.........just like in your previous post to me........

Again......you say people need to come together, but you display nothing but division, and contempt....

You sir are not sincere.........

YOu have proven with the above statement that you care about no one elses opinion but your own....

That is not indicative of someone who wants people to "come together"

That is indicative of someone who only wants anything to do with people who agree with them......

Thats not building bridges to solve problems........

Thats divisive and hateful..........

Just like many of your other posts..........

You say one thing, and display another.........
edit on 20-1-2013 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:45 PM
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Point made, I'll give you that one... I was concentrating on modern day inventors. Yet, he was educated, not just crawled out from under a rock somewhere. He learned from society around him, from those who wrote books and lectured and so on and those existed because of a government.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by HopSkipJump
 




I really don't care what you believe. You are nothing to me and your opinion doesn't affect me in any way. You are being childish and attackful.



again with your name calling.........just like in your previous post to me........

Again......you say people need to come together, but you display nothing but division, and contempt....

You sir are not sincere.........

YOu have proven with the above statement that you care about no one elses opinion but your own....

That is not indicative of someone who wants people to "come together"

That is indicative of someone who only wants anything to do with people who agree with them......

Thats not building bridges to solve problems........

Thats divisive and hateful..........

Just like many of your other posts..........

You say one thing, and display another.........
edit on 20-1-2013 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)


Name calling and descriptions of behaviors are two different things. It is clear you want nothing more than an argument and you do not wish to contribute in any way.
Your actions fit the definition of a troll. If that's what you wish to be, you are being successful at it, if not, then you should re-evaluate what you are attempting to do.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by HopSkipJump
 





If you see just cause to remove someone from office and can garner the support to do so, then do it, but don't shout "well I'll just secede since my guy's not in there". That is the act of a traitor, not a patriot. A patriot works to correct problems, not run away from them. When you are able to accept that fact, then perhaps you will understand what is being said here.


Your simple view of the problem as "were just gonna secede because our guy isnt in there" is indicative of the problem.......

That isnt why they want to secede, they want to secede because of the ACTIONS of this person.......

You cannot take such a simplified view of these things, dumb them down, and pretend to accuse people of these actions, as if they are the real reason, just because YOU believe thats what it is.........and then tell everyone you understand what the issues are.....

this is willful ignorance at its best......

You seem to be ignoring all the other facts involved with this president or his actions, and why people would feel the need to do so........

Going against a government that has turned against its own constitution, does not a traitor make.........

This should be obvious



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by HopSkipJump
 


Its cute you trying to use EXACTLY what i said against me..........its not going to work, ive been here quite a long time and have seen people like you come and go my friend..........

Youre trying to stir the pot, and its not going to work........

Youre taking simplified views, and general lack of knowledge of whats going on in this country, and trying to label other people traitors........

(shrugs) carry on my friend...........but I can see through it...........



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:57 PM
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The most effective process. Right now it's working within the system to enact change. The system is there for a reason. It'll be effective until they (government) decide to change the system.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by HopSkipJump

By saying you are a patriot, you are saying that you support and defend your country. Your country is defined by the land area contained within it and the government that regulates it. IF you are a patriot, then you are saying that you support our form of government, our way of life.

Now that doesn't mean that you necessarily support the current leaders or all the decisions that are made, but you DO support the government, afterall, the government is what defines a country. The United States is a country that is defined by the government set forth by the Constitution of the United States that was ratified by the states upon its formation as well as by the states that joined the union afterwards.


Not really. Constitutions are not what they are jacked up to be. They are just general guidelines setup by politicians at some point. This is what a constitution is in its simplest form. Most americans agree on what the constitution stands for, BUT if a socialist government came into place it could make the old one null and void and draft a new constitution. This has happened in many countries in the past that were switching radically from a monarchy to a democracy or a republic.


What's that mean? It means that the people who live in this country, who are citizens of this country abide by the laws set forth by the government and adhere to the rules that are implied. Does it mean they agree with every law that exists? No. Does it mean they have to adhere to those laws even if they don't agree with them? Yes, it does. If you do not adhere to the laws that exist, you are subject to whatever punishment exists for breaking those laws.


Except many times the elected government does not play by the same rules. They cherry pick what they like and ignore/downplay/misinterpret what they don't like. One has to be blind or confused to miss this.


If your government sets out to change laws or create new laws, there is a process that must be gone through in order to do so. You have a say in it. You elect officials to represent you in making these decisions. If the elected official doesn't agree with you personally, then you have the opportunity to help elect a different official in the next election. However, you do not have the "right" to ignore what those officials decide, you do not have the right to rise up against those officials, who were elected by a majority, you do not have the right to do whatever you want to do. The government exists because we chose for it to exist and the majority of the citizens in the country voted for the officials that now hold office.


Unfortunately I have to agree with you but massive propaganda campaigns do not allow people to be critical thinkers. There is too much censorship, misreporting, selective sensationalism by the msm. How many times do we here anything about the libertarian, constitution, green, socialist, communist party in america? Why are they ignored so much? There must be a disinformation agenda to keep them low profile thus promoting democrats and republicans as the only choice. Just because "small parties" are included in some/many ballots does not mean we have a proper democracy/republic.


If you are ranting and raving, wishing to rise up against the government that we, as a majority put into place, you cannot call yourself a patriot because you are NOT supporting the country. The small groups of people in states saying the state wants to secede are not patriots, they are saying they wish to leave the country just because they happen to be in the minority and they aren't "getting their way" right now. The states that disagreed with George Bush's handling of Iraq didn't secede from the Union because of it, they worked to change what was going on. The people that oppose you politically don't try to take away your citizenship or say they are giving up theirs, they work to change things.

There is not one single person out there who has spoken of secession who can rightfully call themselves a patriot. They are the polar opposite of a patriot. A patriot supports his/her country/government regardless of who may be in political power at the time. It's shameful and disgusting that they rant and rave about leaving the United States of America and in the next breath CLAIM to be patriots. They are not the same thing, they are complete opposites and the people doing so are nothing but cowardly morons who don't comprehend the basic knowledge of what their country is.


Secession is a last resort solution when all other avenues have been tried and failed upon.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:58 PM
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Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious, according to Oscar Wilde



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 





Your simple view of the problem as "were just gonna secede because our guy isnt in there" is indicative of the problem.......


If Romney was elected there would be no petitions to secede right now. You can pretend like this isn't true but it is. The petitions were created by a bunch of butthurt mainly southern right wingers.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:59 PM
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In my opinion, a true patriot would take this country down and rebuild it from the ground up, because this isn't the America our forefathers dreamed of.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
Perhaps a new "Constitutional Convention" held by a group of people who want to ensure the Constitution is the guiding factor in our country and the Constitution is used to make the changes that need to be made,


And even that is a point of debate
Some see the constitution as stagnant for all time...nothing more needed
Some see the constitution as a living, breathing entity that should be tailored as the country grows and changes.

The founding fathers..well, at least Jefferson, is quoted as suggesting it needs to change over time...and change it does...with amendments.
But ya, we are arguing with step 1 of that...what is the role of the constitution..is it the foundation that things are built on, or is it the roof that nothing may go beyond.


Very good point, I hadn't considered that.
I see it as a living, breathing document that is the foundation upon which things are built. Changes to it shouldn't be made lightly, but they can be made. I see the Bill of Rights as "untouchable", the cornerstones, perhaps the only "stagnant part" of it.
This will require some thought, thank you.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 01:02 PM
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I think we're in agreement on that part

If they were to ever change the system (the elected officials
), then it would be a time for more forcefull action, in my opinion



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 01:03 PM
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wrong thread*
edit on 20-1-2013 by WaterBottle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
In my opinion, a true patriot would take this country down and rebuild it from the ground up, because this isn't the America our forefathers dreamed of.


Our forefathers were not gods or fortune tellers.
Their vision of the year 2000 was probably great steam engines and cities built and tended to by a multitude of slaves.

Their finest work came in the crafting of a foundation for the country..but lets not pretend that outside of that scope, they themselves were great visionarys. Their wisdom lied in not only crafting a pretty good start, but also in the understanding that things change and so should law based on the reality of tomorrow.

Imagine today trying to craft a constitution that would be fitting 300 years from now...what with the aliens, the interdimensional alter earth folks, the cyborgs, the energy americans, the net birthed entities, etc...ya, far out of oour understanding..the best you can do is say you don't know what the future holds, and to just guide things as best possible for maximum liberty of the individual while protecting them from others at the same time.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
In my opinion, a true patriot would take this country down and rebuild it from the ground up, because this isn't the America our forefathers dreamed of.

One way to take it down would be for most of the states to secede and then form another union. That gets rid of the entire federal machinery in one go



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by HopSkipJump
 



I was concentrating on modern day inventors.


Cool. NASA - 2011 Invention of the Year Award Winners. No thinking allowed outside the supermarket of the minds box.

Here's a book you might enjoy. Its called "Suppressed Inventions" by Jonathan Eisen (Jan 1, 2001)
www.amazon.com... 02142586328&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_32nzec98zl_b



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by Observor

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
In my opinion, a true patriot would take this country down and rebuild it from the ground up, because this isn't the America our forefathers dreamed of.

One way to take it down would be for most of the states to secede and then form another union. That gets rid of the entire federal machinery in one go


That would be the cowardly, traitorous way out. Plain and simple.



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