Patriots don't secede

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


Nothing more than your opinion, and I see YOU as the one trolling here. Some of us are having a serious discussion that is constantly interuppted by political talking heads. If you have no solutions and merely want to whine and cry, go to the rant forum and whine and cry as much as you want to.

If you have some input on solving the problems instead of trying to lay blame on one political party or the other when BOTH are to blame, then offer up that solution instead of trying to pick fights and claim you are right when you are clearly wrong.

Grow up and offer solutions instead of compounding the problem. If more people were able to do that, we could solve the problems instead of spiraling deeper into them. You want to call me a "troll" for having the nerve to say the truth, something people don't want to hear. That isn't the case. If you open your eyes, maybe you'll see that.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by beezzer
Biden says how it's patriotic to pay higher taxes.

Biden is an idiot

Just like Dan Quayle was an idiot

...and Dick Cheney was an evil monster

We have to stop beingn controlled by political extremes and come together as citizens of our country and solve these problems

Everyone of all political stripes see the same problems.

It's the solutions that differentiate us.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
How can we get the others to understand this and help us to move forward instead of bickering back and forth and taking down the entire country in their tantrums?

Forward is a debated subject that people seem to be torn on overall..which direction that is.
Some want to go forward onto a studied future, some want to go forward to a less active government..

Hard to say we should come together to fix a problem when we are the ones that demand completely opposite directions for problemsolving to begin with.

This if course has been artificially created by shock jock media types to keep the divisions up and their viewers enthralled.

For me personally, we replace the republic as it stands with a council of intellectuals for each matter, be it environmental, economic, etc...the brightest of the brightest and have them vote on things behind closed doors away from the day to day spin..remove the choice from the knuckledraggers..

But then that's no longer the republic as it stands...meh, never said I was a patriot or a traitor anyhow. I am simply seeing the flaw of the peoples choice overall when the people are more fascinated with glitter than substance.

reply to post by HopSkipJump

We tried that, it didn't work. Google "Civil War" to see how it turned out.

The Articles of Confederation was signed in 1777 after 16 years of bickering over land rights and STATE autonomy.

Constitution was signed 1789, just twelve years later. Some try.

The Articles of Confederation begin:

"To all to whom these Present shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States"

By contrast, the Constitution begins:

"We the People of the United States do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The predominance of the states under the Articles of Confederation is made even more explicit by the claims of Article II:

"Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."

Centralized power was the goal. That's what you've got and you seem to like it well enough. Good for you, not everyone agrees with you.

I'm very aware of how the "civil war" turned out.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by beezzer
Biden says how it's patriotic to pay higher taxes.

Biden is an idiot

Just like Dan Quayle was an idiot

...and Dick Cheney was an evil monster

We have to stop beingn controlled by political extremes and come together as citizens of our country and solve these problems

YOu say that on one hand, but then throughout the thread you have accused people of being one thing or another, thrown out slanderous terms at people who dont agree with you, and displayed your partisan side......
You have been vitriolic and instigacious.....

I do not believe you are sincere

I really don't care what you believe. You are nothing to me and your opinion doesn't affect me in any way. You are being childish and attackful.
I have responded to what people have said. I have responded directly to their own words. YOU see it as partisan, those who know better see it as giving the truth of the matter and covering all sides of the matter. Since you happen to agree with the people I have responded to, you want to label it as partisan. you are wrong. I don't support Obama as a political leader, I didn't support Bush as a political leader, I don't support any President 100% because they are human. They are political people filling a position set up by our government, the government that was formed by the US Constitution. There are some I agree with more than others, but NONE of them are "Supreme leaders" who must be obeyed at all costs. They are merely PEOPLE who are filling an office in the executive branch of our government. They are entrusted to make decisions that determine the direction in which our country goes but they are NOT supreme leaders, they are NOT kings, they are NOT rulers. They are the representative we put in office with an election and they can be removed if needed by legal means as set forth by the US Constitution.

If you see just cause to remove someone from office and can garner the support to do so, then do it, but don't shout "well I'll just secede since my guy's not in there". That is the act of a traitor, not a patriot. A patriot works to correct problems, not run away from them. When you are able to accept that fact, then perhaps you will understand what is being said here.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by beezzer
Biden says how it's patriotic to pay higher taxes.

Biden is an idiot

Just like Dan Quayle was an idiot

...and Dick Cheney was an evil monster

We have to stop beingn controlled by political extremes and come together as citizens of our country and solve these problems

Everyone of all political stripes see the same problems.

It's the solutions that differentiate us.

What are some solutions that you see as possibilities?

I think my most extreme solution would be to abolish all existing laws and rewrite them (not abolish them until the new ones are written of course). I'd want those laws to be measured against the Constitution itself, especially the Bill of Rights, with none of them infringing what was set forth. Then I would not only want them passed by congress but also approved by the people, even though that isn't one of the conditions set forth, but since it would be such a sweeping change, I'd want to ensure that everyone had a say in it.

It wouldn't be easy by any means, but I do feel it would make a big difference in our future. I don't imagine it would ever happen, but it would be something that I would support 100% if the opportunity were to arise.

Originally posted by frazzle
As for the power grids:

The Energy Crisis is a lie, the problem was solved 100 years ago by a scientist named Nikola Tesla.

He had discovered a way to harness the naturally occurring electricity from the ionosphere, and then in turn rebroadcast it to individual relay stations that could be placed anywhere and were no larger then your average car antenna.

Each primary tower could produce renewable, safe, clean electricity, and would then broadcast it wirelessly to points as far (as his experiments in Colorado springs showed) as 30 miles away from the primary tower.

Nikola Tesla's primary investor, J.P. Morgan, thought he was investing in the world's first radio tower, but unknown to him, that was only one of its purposes and capabilities.

Yes, however this is not hard fact...this is evidence, but without any peer reviewing of Tesla's microwave work overall...
Although I do believe it to be true...but I tend to believe a whole bunch of nutty things anyhow..my belief and fact aren't always lock step.

What is the reality is what is...currently reality..that being the power grid and all that. JP Morgan, if what the storys and conspiracys suggest, simply practiced corporate desires to sit on such tech
But, something to kick in the skeptical side..why hasn't the tower been reproduced? This is a hundred year old tech, and nobody globally was able to reproduce it...that should trigger a bit of questioning...you think someone in china or Russia gives a rats butt about JP Morgan's patent?

So, until this is based in fact...you might as well say someone found some alien tech that powers the entire world on hugs alone with equal credibility..

We must deal in reality of we are to solve the problems of reality verses moan about a hundred year old rumor and some slight evidence but no solid proof.

It would be a different form of government than we presently use. I'm not sure I would be 100% in support of it for various reasons that I would really have to think through, but I do respect your opinion on it and see it as viable, perhaps not my first choice, but viable.

I can see many advantages to it as well. We would have to instill a great deal of trust into the individuals and find a way to safeguard from future corruption which isn't easy to do.

No matter what we choose to do, we need to come together as one in order to be successful at it. As long as we have the shock jocks and the political extremists, it just can't be accomplished. It may end up taking a great failure as a nation in order to make the changes that need to be made

reply to post by HopSkipJump

Did they just crawl out from under a rock somewhere in the desert and say "hey, look what I made!"?? No, they were educated by a school system set up by the government, they were raised in a society that was made possible by an organized government.

Thomas Edison had very little formal education as a child, attending school only for a few months. He was taught reading, writing, and arithmetic by his mother, but was always a very curious child and taught himself much by reading on his own.

inventors.about.com...

You, on the other hand, were obviously educated in a system set up by the government.

Nuff said.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


Well, in a sense, you are correct. I do not hate the foundations of who and what we are...I hate the manipulations of those things.

I want freedom for all....it is and will be a broad brush stroke...I am not going to get into what I think "freedom" is. Suffice to say....we are being played...we are being herded. TPTB want to make you think your voice has a meaning when in fact they do all they can to make sure it does not.

I am the reluctant revolutionary....I 'GET IT"...I do not want my children and grandchildren to have to suffer this....I do not want them struggling to eat or shelter themselves...this is an abomination and it will be broken and corrected.....all human beings should have the basics of life....food, water and shelter...those that think this is a route of profit should be taken out and shot....seriously...humanity wins...greed will find it is a loser.... If you disagree with me...fine...gimme your phone number and address
Those that think that it is their place to rule over another human will find they have no use anymore....it is time to face their gravestones....you are no longer needed...

No human is entitled to rule over another....you will get what is coming if you think you do...and what is that?...painful death.....

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
I think my most extreme solution would be to abolish all existing laws and rewrite them (not abolish them until the new ones are written of course).

Our current politicians can't even pass a budget...you think they would do well coming up with fair and effective laws?

Also, we the individuals can't do anything...we the people don't care..so this is all just academic yapping without any actual possibility of change. Pretty sure the typical American doesn't go to ATS to get their political motivation..and until CNN does a series on how we need to start over, ya...just some people chatting with no possible outcome coming from it.

-cynical, but realist-

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by Observor
Who said anything about any political party? What is wrong with trying to dissociate oneself from a nation that no longer represents what some believed it did when joining it? Texas wan't always part of the US.

the US wasn't always part of the US...all of this is indian county anyhow...what is, is.
Texas is part of the US now.
Want to leave the union...that's not something achieved by a soapbox and a stand..that is achieved by a passport and a ticket to wherever you want to go, assuming they will take you in.

you can leave the union as a person, but you can't take part of it with you.

Ref: 1860

Since when have you become the owner of the entire territory of the US?

No one is expecting there will be a peaceful secession should only one state desire it. But if enough states are convinced that the only way to rescue the US is to first dissolve the entire union and form another the way it was intended to be and announce secession all at the same time, exactly what do you think the federal government is going to do? Start bombing over half the country? But for that idea to catch up, someone has to start and Texas is taking the lead.

The US was not established by peaceful means and taking it back from the special interests is not going to be peaceful either.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump


What are some solutions that you see as possibilities?

My posting history would describe that.

Some solutions would have us revolt against tyranny.
Other solutions describe working within the system.
Others still would enjoy the new "transformed" America and do nothing.

It all depends on how much the country is "fundamentally transformed".

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

Did they just crawl out from under a rock somewhere in the desert and say "hey, look what I made!"?? No, they were educated by a school system set up by the government, they were raised in a society that was made possible by an organized government.

Thomas Edison had very little formal education as a child, attending school only for a few months. He was taught reading, writing, and arithmetic by his mother, but was always a very curious child and taught himself much by reading on his own.

inventors.about.com...

You, on the other hand, were obviously educated in a system set up by the government.

Nuff said.

Public Education wasn't formalized until 1910, Thomas Edison lived in the 1800's. Of course he didn't go to public school you idiot

Seriously, if you want to discuss, then discuss, don't try to come up with insults and ignorance. The motto of the site is "Deny Ignorance", try living up to the motto

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
It would be a different form of government than we presently use. I'm not sure I would be 100% in support of it for various reasons that I would really have to think through, but I do respect your opinion on it and see it as viable, perhaps not my first choice, but viable.

Well, I am not a fan of a republic...and certainly not a democracy. It is the best of a bad lot for now.
But soon enough, my preferred government, a Technocracy, will be viable (requires some tech to truly be effective..make sure all data is solid sort of thing..but still could be instituted in its beginning stages now.

Technocracy is a form of government in which experts in technology would be in control of all decision making. Scientists, engineers, and technologists who have knowledge, expertise, or skills, would compose the governing body, instead of politicians, businessmen, and economists. In a technocracy, decision makers would be selected based upon how knowledgeable and skillful they are in their field.

I prefer a consensus of experts making decisions on a certain field over a politician, and far over some person whom only knows a 3 word catch phrase about a entire subject.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

Well, in a sense, you are correct. I do not hate the foundations of who and what we are...I hate the manipulations of those things.

I want freedom for all....it is and will be a broad brush stroke...I am not going to get into what I think "freedom" is. Suffice to say....we are being played...we are being herded. TPTB want to make you think your voice has a meaning when in fact they do all they can to make sure it does not.

I am the reluctant revolutionary....I 'GET IT"...I do not want my children and grandchildren to have to suffer this....I do not want them struggling to eat or shelter themselves...this is an abomination and it will be broken and corrected.....all human beings should have the basics of life....food, water and shelter...those that think this is a route of profit should be taken out and shot....seriously...humanity wins...greed will find it is a loser.... If you disagree with me...fine...gimme your phone number and address
Those that think that it is their place to rule over another human will find they have no use anymore....it is time to face their gravestones....you are no longer needed...

No human is entitled to rule over another....you will get what is coming if you think you do...and what is that?...painful death.....

edit on 1/20/2013 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)

Then you are seeing the need for change, whether it be returning to the foundation laid forth by the Constitution or refining it. I do agree, we are being manipulated on a daily basis and there is a great deal of corruption in the elected officials.

There are major changes that need to be made, but I feel we need to concentrate on making the changes, not abandoning all that we have worked for. The corrections can be made and we can move forward as opposed to a bunch of states seceding and forming 50 individual nations and doing away with all we have worked for.

I think we have a good foundation, the Constitution, and we need to ensure that foundation continues. There are many questions on how to accomplish it, but the people wanting to secede are one of the problems, not one of the solutions.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
I think my most extreme solution would be to abolish all existing laws and rewrite them (not abolish them until the new ones are written of course).

Our current politicians can't even pass a budget...you think they would do well coming up with fair and effective laws?

Also, we the individuals can't do anything...we the people don't care..so this is all just academic yapping without any actual possibility of change. Pretty sure the typical American doesn't go to ATS to get their political motivation..and until CNN does a series on how we need to start over, ya...just some people chatting with no possible outcome coming from it.

-cynical, but realist-

yeah, unfortunately, you're right.

Perhaps a new "Constitutional Convention" held by a group of people who want to ensure the Constitution is the guiding factor in our country and the Constitution is used to make the changes that need to be made, that is, throw out every single elected official that exists and start over not only with all the laws but with all the elected officials too.

... technically, we could actually do that part pretty easily. If we all came together in the next election and refused to vote for either a democrat or a republican and we were all to vote for the independent candidate in every single election or the challenger if there was no independent candidate, we could make the statement that we were tired of politics as usual, put in a new person in each and every single office that exists and let them basically start over.

Don't know if it would work, but it's the idea that crossed my mind.

Originally posted by Observor
Since when have you become the owner of the entire territory of the US?

No one is expecting there will be a peaceful secession should only one state desire it. But if enough states are convinced that the only way to rescue the US is to first dissolve the entire union and form another the way it was intended to be and announce secession all at the same time, exactly what do you think the federal government is going to do? Start bombing over half the country? But for that idea to catch up, someone has to start and Texas is taking the lead.

The US was not established by peaceful means and taking it back from the special interests is not going to be peaceful either.

Since birth
My tax dollars go towards funding a military which is sworn to protect me from enemies both foreign and domestic.
Should some rabble group of traitors pop up and try to steal part of the nation, my military, with their apachii's and M1A1's will roll in and take out the traitors in quick fashion..more than likely without a single loss to any American's given their professional well honed skillset.

And THAT is what made me, and other fellow americans, owner of the entire continent..as was the way of my father, and his father before him, etc.

Ownership through superior military power and the support of the people whom fund said military.
Pretty sure the combined might of our troops can overcome some moonshiners with a few shotguns demanding they are seceding from the union.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by HopSkipJump


What are some solutions that you see as possibilities?

My posting history would describe that.

Some solutions would have us revolt against tyranny.
Other solutions describe working within the system.
Others still would enjoy the new "transformed" America and do nothing.

It all depends on how much the country is "fundamentally transformed".

I'll have to take some time and look at some of your past posts to formulate what it is you stand for then.

Until then, what process do you most favor?

reply to post by SaturnFX


I see your point, but its about much more than just Tesla and the power grid and you can probably thank the US Patent Office's attatchment to the monied aristocracy for much of who's who in the world of technology.

No patent is truly safe, as Tesla's career demonstrates. In 1900, the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company, Ltd. began thriving in the stock markets—due primarily to Marconi's family connections with English aristocracy. British Marconi stock soared from $3 to $22 per share and the glamorous young Italian nobleman was internationally acclaimed.

www.pbs.org...

Sorry for going off topic. Its just that who we are is not at all who we think we are, so how are we supposed to "fix us"?