Patriots don't secede

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
No, if you secede, you are not a patriot, you are a traitor. These are not made up definitions, they are the actual definitions. You are attributing meanings that don't exist.

Any state that secedes from the United States is a state of Traitors. Just as we were traitors to the British Crown, you will be traitors to the United States and the US Constitution. Sure, you can be a "patriot" to the "Nation of Texas", but you will be a traitor to the United States and to the Constitution. It is your choice, but you can't call it something it isn't.

Yes, they would be traitors to the corrupt government of the US and its non-functional constitution. Don't see much problem with that.

Exactly and well said!!

If we want to fix the problems that have come into existance in our 237 year history, we have to work together to fix them, not take our balls and go home. Anyone speaking of secession is a traitor, not a patriot. A patriot stays and corrects the problem, a traitor is a coward that just leaves and abandons all that was worked for.

Originally posted by Observor

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
No, if you secede, you are not a patriot, you are a traitor. These are not made up definitions, they are the actual definitions. You are attributing meanings that don't exist.

Any state that secedes from the United States is a state of Traitors. Just as we were traitors to the British Crown, you will be traitors to the United States and the US Constitution. Sure, you can be a "patriot" to the "Nation of Texas", but you will be a traitor to the United States and to the Constitution. It is your choice, but you can't call it something it isn't.

Yes, they would be traitors to the corrupt government of the US and its non-functional constitution. Don't see much problem with that.

then you are openly admitting that you are a traitor to the United States of America (because your political party isn't in power).

Originally posted by frazzle
Government does not provide electricity or monetary income or transportation or the internet or any of the other perks of your everyday life. Those perks are provided by private, for profit corporations upon which you are dependent, and for which you must pay with money borrowed, at interest, from one of the above named corporations. Government's role is to protect those corporations by regulating you and taxing you for the privilege.

They win, you lose.

edit on 20-1-2013 by frazzle because: (no reason given)

Government provides infrastructure
So all that stuff you mentioned would not be possible without the government to begin with.
What use is a net ready computer without the internet established to begin with. What use is electronics without a national power grid? What use is a car when no roads are paved and no national highway system created.

Government has a very strong role in maintaining the country, and also progressing us into new eras. They don't (aren't supposed to) protect any company, but rather to protect any company's ability to use the infrastructure to further their businesses.

This too big to fail crap is crap. This comes from a flaw in capitalism and lack of regulations that allows for a company to grow too large, threatening the economic fundamentals, but that's a different argument.

Originally posted by groingrinder
The big problem as I see it is that we DO NOT GET TO CHOOSE OUR LEADERS. We get to choose between the Democrat thieving liar or the Republican thieving liar who are shoved down our throats by the corrupt system. This is because the corrupt political system depends on HUGE cash donations from corrupt corporations. Thus an honest independent candidate will never get elected.

Once we decouple the corporate cash from the political system, then we will have a shot at honest representative government again. ALL money donated should be anonymous. It should be put into a pool and distributed to ALL candidates equally. This should happen at both the state and national levels.

You do make good points.

Now the question is, how do we go about changing it and repairing our nation as opposed to wanting to secede as traitors?

It is the job of the patriots to fix the problems that exist. You are offering possible solutions as opposed to abandonment, that is the act of a patriot as opposed to a traitor.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


i think the patriot act and the NDAA need some serious revision, especially the parts that directly violate a number of our oringinal ten amendments...when a US citizens voice can be silenced due to indefinite incarceration, that is what dictatorships, and police states have in common.

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

they (perks) exist BECAUSE we have a government. If we had no government, you would have no services. Unless you are able to exist, on your own, without any services that exist, you are a hypocrite. You are showing that you do not exist on your own because you are right here, right now.

Government doesn't invent anything, they just regulate PEOPLE'S inventions. How do you know that if government hadn't taken control of Tesla's inventions we wouldn't all be enjoying FREE electricity right now, plus many other perks of his genius? And he's just one.

Find me one government employee ~ just one, on this list of famous inventors.
www.buzzle.com...

Me a hypocrite? Well at least I don't think we're all too stupid to breathe on our own like you apparently do.

I don't think we're all too stupid to breathe on our own, but I do question the ability of some of you to do so.

How do you think those people were able to invent things? Did they just crawl out from under a rock somewhere in the desert and say "hey, look what I made!"?? No, they were educated by a school system set up by the government, they were raised in a society that was made possible by an organized government. They were citizens of their respective countries, the countries that were governed in some form or fashion.

Too many people say "give me, give me, give me" but want to give nothing in return. They want all the rights and priveledges but none of the responsibilities. I do question the intelligence of many, including you, and I have every right to do so as I have taken the responsibility of educating myself (with the help of many many people thorughout my life). You have chosen not to do so or have not been entirely successful in it.

The truth is sometimes painful but until we can accept the truth, we cannot move forward.

Who said anything about any political party? What is wrong with trying to dissociate oneself from a nation that no longer represents what some believed it did when joining it? Texas wan't always part of the US.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by groingrinder
The big problem as I see it is that we DO NOT GET TO CHOOSE OUR LEADERS. We get to choose between the Democrat thieving liar or the Republican thieving liar who are shoved down our throats by the corrupt system. This is because the corrupt political system depends on HUGE cash donations from corrupt corporations. Thus an honest independent candidate will never get elected.

Once we decouple the corporate cash from the political system, then we will have a shot at honest representative government again. ALL money donated should be anonymous. It should be put into a pool and distributed to ALL candidates equally. This should happen at both the state and national levels.

You do make good points.

Now the question is, how do we go about changing it and repairing our nation as opposed to wanting to secede as traitors?

It is the job of the patriots to fix the problems that exist. You are offering possible solutions as opposed to abandonment, that is the act of a patriot as opposed to a traitor.

Well, we choose our leaders in the same way we choose our talent on American Idol.
Corporations are people and all that.

This is indeed a issue, my sarcasm aside. What is the fix? Simple...heavy regulations of corporations influencing any election.
Once these regulations are in place, mainstream media can be hammered for giving more airtime to the R or D when there are viable I's out there.
Until then...meh, its a corporate puppet game.
Now, those people frustrated..thats where their true angst lies...a corporate ownership of information.

Also one area where both D's and R's demand a free and unobstructed internet...its perhaps the only level playing field we got in regards to getting information (or spin) out...when our voice is equal to that of a gigantic corporate campaign.

Often there is discussion of getting the internet as a subscription based thing to act more like cable (buy the gold package for 40 bucks a year and you get youtube, Netflix, msn live, etc etc etc)...everytime such talks are nailed to a cross.
The network television actually needs to be more like the internet...with your own choice, and the words of the small equal to that of the tall.

But this is a fight of the citizen V corporation..not the citizen V government anyhow...

Originally posted by Observor
Who said anything about any political party? What is wrong with trying to dissociate oneself from a nation that no longer represents what some believed it did when joining it? Texas wan't always part of the US.

the US wasn't always part of the US...all of this is indian county anyhow...what is, is.
Texas is part of the US now.
Want to leave the union...that's not something achieved by a soapbox and a stand..that is achieved by a passport and a ticket to wherever you want to go, assuming they will take you in.

you can leave the union as a person, but you can't take part of it with you.

Ref: 1860

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by frazzle
Government does not provide electricity or monetary income or transportation or the internet or any of the other perks of your everyday life. Those perks are provided by private, for profit corporations upon which you are dependent, and for which you must pay with money borrowed, at interest, from one of the above named corporations. Government's role is to protect those corporations by regulating you and taxing you for the privilege.

They win, you lose.

edit on 20-1-2013 by frazzle because: (no reason given)

Government provides infrastructure
So all that stuff you mentioned would not be possible without the government to begin with.
What use is a net ready computer without the internet established to begin with. What use is electronics without a national power grid? What use is a car when no roads are paved and no national highway system created.

Government has a very strong role in maintaining the country, and also progressing us into new eras. They don't (aren't supposed to) protect any company, but rather to protect any company's ability to use the infrastructure to further their businesses.

This too big to fail crap is crap. This comes from a flaw in capitalism and lack of regulations that allows for a company to grow too large, threatening the economic fundamentals, but that's a different argument.

A confederacy between the states could provide all the infrastructure we could ever need every bit as efficiently (did I actually use that word?) as the feds.

As for the power grids:

The Energy Crisis is a lie, the problem was solved 100 years ago by a scientist named Nikola Tesla.

He had discovered a way to harness the naturally occurring electricity from the ionosphere, and then in turn rebroadcast it to individual relay stations that could be placed anywhere and were no larger then your average car antenna.

Each primary tower could produce renewable, safe, clean electricity, and would then broadcast it wirelessly to points as far (as his experiments in Colorado springs showed) as 30 miles away from the primary tower.

Nikola Tesla's primary investor, J.P. Morgan, thought he was investing in the world's first radio tower, but unknown to him, that was only one of its purposes and capabilities.

releaseteslasresearch.weebly.com...

Likewise, Henry Ford was an inventor, not a government agent. And then the too big to fails got control of his product, as well.

Originally posted by jimmyx
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

i think the patriot act and the NDAA need some serious revision, especially the parts that directly violate a number of our oringinal ten amendments...when a US citizens voice can be silenced due to indefinite incarceration, that is what dictatorships, and police states have in common.

I agree with you. Instead of being distracted by talking heads from both sides of the isle, we should be focused on the laws and acts that already exist that are enabling more and more freedoms to be taken away. If we wish to retain our rights, it is our responsibility to take action when needed. Appropriate action, actions that will make changes for the better, not actions of saying "well I'll just secede then I don't have to listen to you".

Those who are saying they want to secede don't realize that when they do so, they give up citizenship, they are then ruled by another government, the government that the state of Texas decides to set up. They may not like what they get and it'll be too bad, they will no longer be citizens of the United States and will not have the protections, the rights, the abilities that they have right now. It may be good for them to let them go through it and give them the attitude adjustment they so desparately need.

If not for weakening the entire country while dealing with the civil war that would then take place in that state and cleaning up the mess they make, it could possibly be the best answer. But, at the present time, with the economy in the shape it's in, we don't have the time or the resources to deal with their temper tantrum.

Originally posted by frazzle


A confederacy between the states could provide all the infrastructure we could ever need every bit as efficiently (did I actually use that word?) as the feds.

We tried that, it didn't work. Google "Civil War" to see how it turned out.

As for the rest of your post, it has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing...

reply to post by HopSkipJump

If you are opposed to the government they set up, then you are not a patriot.

If you think what we have right now is the government they set up then you are delusional


If they were here today, we would be having another revolutionary war

hes talking about the founding fathers and now you are telling him HE is?

Trolling much?

Its my opinion that this whole thread was nothing more then an intentionally inflamitory thread to try and illicit the anger response.........

NOW youre putting words in peoples mouths and making statements about them personally, when you arent asking about THEM personally , you are talking about the founding fathers.........

THEN you are projecting onto the poster.........

Bad form man..........very very bad form............

Biden says how it's patriotic to pay higher taxes.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Well, we choose our leaders in the same way we choose our talent on American Idol.
Corporations are people and all that.

This is indeed a issue, my sarcasm aside. What is the fix? Simple...heavy regulations of corporations influencing any election.
Once these regulations are in place, mainstream media can be hammered for giving more airtime to the R or D when there are viable I's out there.
Until then...meh, its a corporate puppet game.
Now, those people frustrated..thats where their true angst lies...a corporate ownership of information.

Also one area where both D's and R's demand a free and unobstructed internet...its perhaps the only level playing field we got in regards to getting information (or spin) out...when our voice is equal to that of a gigantic corporate campaign.

Often there is discussion of getting the internet as a subscription based thing to act more like cable (buy the gold package for 40 bucks a year and you get youtube, Netflix, msn live, etc etc etc)...everytime such talks are nailed to a cross.
The network television actually needs to be more like the internet...with your own choice, and the words of the small equal to that of the tall.

But this is a fight of the citizen V corporation..not the citizen V government anyhow...

Yes, it does seem more and more like an American Idol competition every election cycle

Unfortunately, the "winner" gets to determine what direction the entire country goes in

There are many, many problems with the way things are being handled right now and in the past decade, or even century. All of the "small mistakes" build up over time and they're taking their toll on us now. There are answers out there, but until all of us can set the D and R aside and work together to fix those problems, they're only going to get worse.

We have a great and powerful nation, it's our jobs as citizens of that nation to solve the problems that exist instead of compounding those problems. Too many people today just want to whine and cry and don't want to do the work.

How can we get the others to understand this and help us to move forward instead of bickering back and forth and taking down the entire country in their tantrums?

Originally posted by frazzle
Find me one government employee ~ just one, on this list of famous inventors.

Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin is famous for inventing the lightning rod and the accompanying anecdote of him having flown a kite in a storm in order to prove his hypothesis. He also invented bifocals, the Franklin stove, a carriage odometer, and also a musical instrument known as glass armonica. Franklin was a noted polymath, and was a central figure in early American politics; he was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States.

I would venture to say Ben was a government employee..given he was a founding father and all that.

Keep in mind, the greatest things of today was invented by the gub-ment..the internet, space flight (Apollo program), The national highway/railway system, Manhattan project..etc

Originally posted by beezzer
Biden says how it's patriotic to pay higher taxes.

Biden is an idiot
Just like Dan Quayle was an idiot
...and Dick Cheney was an evil monster

We have to stop beingn controlled by political extremes and come together as citizens of our country and solve these problems

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by beezzer
Biden says how it's patriotic to pay higher taxes.

Biden is an idiot

Just like Dan Quayle was an idiot

...and Dick Cheney was an evil monster

We have to stop beingn controlled by political extremes and come together as citizens of our country and solve these problems

YOu say that on one hand, but then throughout the thread you have accused people of being one thing or another, thrown out slanderous terms at people who dont agree with you, and displayed your partisan side......
You have been vitriolic and instigacious.....

I do not believe you are sincere