Patriots don't secede

Originally posted by jimmiec
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

I don't see making a stand for a Constitutional right as being traitorous by any means. It is each states right to secede. Just because you do not agree with it does not make it traitorous.

When you secede, you are no longer a citizen of this country. You left this country. You are a traitor to the country. You may be a patriot to your new country, but you are a traitor to this one.

You have every right to secede, you may do so. But, after you do, you are no longer part of this country, you are a different country, whatever country you set up, but a different country. You are no longer a citizen of the United States, you are a citizen of whatever country your state sets up. You are a traitor to the United States of America and a patriot to your new country.

I cannot make it any more simple than that. That's the way it is. You have the right to secede, but in doing so, you are no longer a citizen of the United States, you are a traitor to the United States, just as we became traitors to Great Britan when we declared our independance.

Our forfathers, the "patriots to our nation" were traitors to Great Britan. You cannot be a patriot to one nation without being a traitor to the nation you left. If you secede, you are a traitor to the United States of America. You are no longer a citizen, you are no reforming anything, you are not retaining anything, you are not an American, you are a citizen of the country your state forms. It is no longer part of the United States, it left the United States. Do you understand this?

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

Then what are you and I going to do to change that? Will our actions build the country up into something better or will our actions tear it apart and destroy it based on what some elected officials may be doing? That is the question. What are we going to do and what effect will those actions have?

Those wanting to secede will destroy it. They are traitors, the very definition of traitors. They are not patriots, that's not what a patriot is. They are being manipulated by others who want to destroy what stands and we cannot allow that to happen.

To solve a problem you need good information first and foremost. Unfortunately I see people are focusing on the wrong issues and the msm is mostly to blame for lack of journalistic integrity. Since people are being distracted with non-issues or at best minor issues I see no hope for a better tomorrow. Sure you can be as eccentric as you want, like me for example, but that seems a very small minority compared to the sheep. The sheepherders, the extremely rich and/or masons, are very cunning to effect what they want.

How do we solve a catch 22? How do we untie the gordion knot? Secession is one answer but most likely not the best answer. There is a conspiracy to undermine america and I think you and others are oblivious to this!

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
Boy howdy.....this happens so rarely for me here on ATS.....I do not wish to be rude, but I disagree with absolutely everything you wrote...

You are disagreeing with the political office holders at the present time and you are transferring that to the government as a whole. The people who hold an office are NOT the "Government". The government is the system that has been set up according to the Constitution. You are using your dislike of a current office holder to justify ... well.... treason against the Constitution that you claim you support.

The small groups of people within certain states saying they want to secede are doing so for one reason and one reason only, their political party didn't win the election. They can deny it all they want, but that's the sole reason for it. It's a bad case of "sore loser-ism". Instead of working to better their platform and to promote the passing of laws they support or the defeat of laws they don't support they want to play the game of "I'll take my ball and go away".

Our government was set up to be representative of the people at large. There are elections where the majority gets to choose who will hold certain offices. Just because your side loses doesn't mean the form of government has changed, it doesn't mean the Constitution has changed. It merely means that the people who are presently in charge of upholding the Constitution are of a different political party than the minority of voters happen to be. If the losing side seceeded every time we had an election, our country wouldn't be over 200 years old.

The people who are shouting about seceeding are not a majority, not even a majority of their own states. They are ranting and raving because somebody told them to rant and rave. The people who told them to rant and rave knew that those people didn't have a concept of what the government actually is or even what they were ranting and raving about.

You don't like the President. Well, at least half the country didn't like the last president but they weren't ranting and raving about wanting to secede. They worked hard to ensure their candidate won the next election. At one point in the last presidency, only 23% of the population approved of him. That didn't mean they wanted to commit treason and do away with the government, that meant they didn't like the guy who sat in the White House.

If people are not able to differentiate between the government and a political office, our country won't survive much longer anyway. When you go against the government, when you want to secede, you are going directly against the US Constitution, not against Obama, not against Congress, you are going against the United States of America. There is a big BIG difference in a political office holder and "the government".

This bears repeating for those that might have missed it. I agree completely and I find statements like this a sight for sore eyes. You are giving "Patriotism" a second change for me as I loath the word right now.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


When the country no longer represents you and your rights as a citizen and becomes tyranical, you have a duty to those who gave their lives to insure your freedoms as well as for your children. The traitors are those who would shred our Constitution.

Originally posted by Kevinquisitor
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

Our country has existed for 237 years. Things have changed from what they used to be. You are describing what our country should be like, but for a while now it has been different. Our government is doing whatever it wants to do regardless of what the majority of the people want.

People have been trying to go through the right process to vote and make desired change to better welfare, but it just does not work anymore. What else can you do but secede?

We can continue to work to make changes.

If you secede, you are no longer an American citizen, you no longer have any of the rights that citizens have. You cannot make any changes, you have no say, you are not part of this country any longer.

I've come to the conclusion that many people simply do not know what it means to secede. Many think it's saying "I don't agree with you so I'm not going to play until things change". That's not the case. When you secede, you are OUT. No more games, no more elections, no more rights, no more citizenship. When the South seceded, there was a war. They were defeated, then they were accepted back into the union. The Union did not have to accept them back in. Lincoln saw it best that they were accepted back and they had to adhere to the laws that the country had. He could have said "No", you seceded and now you can't be part of the country anymore. He didn't do that. That would have ensured continued war between the two nations, the United States of America and whatever the South had decided to call itself. He could have chosen to move in and slaughter anyone he saw as an enemy combatant, he didn't. The South was a conquered nation that was allowed to rejoin the United States, but that didn't have to be what happened. That didn't have to be the outcome. Lincoln allowed it, the South didn't demand it, they had no right to demand anything, they were defeated.

As a southerner, I don't like that reality, but it's still reality. Part of my heart likes to dream about "if the south woulda won", but it didn't. We are part of the United States of America, a Nation. If a state chooses to secede, they are no longer part of that Nation. There may be a war, they may just die off, they may be taken over by another country. Chances are, we wouldn't allow another country to come in and take them over, but we are not obligated to defend them, we don't have to help them. They would be their own nation, not part of the United States anymore. No rights, no priveldges, no voting, no voice. That state would be allowed only what we want them to be allowed, nothing more. They have no rights, no voice, no say, nothing. They would no longer be part of the United States of America.

Wanting to secede is a BIG BIG thing. The people advocating it don't realize how big it is. They think it's a game to play or some way to get their voice heard. No, it's leaving the country, no longer bein part of it. They are OUT. They are a foreign nation when they secede. Texas would be no different from Mexico. They may be taken over by Mexico and the United States would not be obligated to lift a single finger to stop it or to help them. The servicemen would be given the option of moving to another state that is part of the United States or being dismissed from the military. If they stayed with Texas, they would no longer be US Soldiers. They would be escorted out of the country and to their country (Texas). No rights, no priveledges, nothing.

The people advocating for this need to take a serious, knowledgeable look at it. They have no idea what it is they are advocating.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

To solve a problem you need good information first and foremost. Unfortunately I see people are focusing on the wrong issues and the msm is mostly to blame for lack of journalistic integrity. Since people are being distracted with non-issues or at best minor issues I see no hope for a better tomorrow. Sure you can be as eccentric as you want, like me for example, but that seems a very small minority compared to the sheep. The sheepherders, the extremely rich and/or masons, are very cunning to effect what they want.

How do we solve a catch 22? How do we untie the gordion knot? Secession is one answer but most likely not the best answer. There is a conspiracy to undermine america and I think you and others are oblivious to this!

Yes, we do need good information. Yes, the MSM, all sides of it are distracting us. No, secession is not an answer, it is a bigger problem.

I don't think you are looking at what secession really entails, what it really is. It's not an answer at all. It's either an empty threat or it's the biggest mistake that could possibly be made.

Originally posted by jimmiec
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

When the country no longer represents you and your rights as a citizen and becomes tyranical, you have a duty to those who gave their lives to insure your freedoms as well as for your children. The traitors are those who would shred our Constitution.

If you secede, you are throwing away the Constitution, you are crumbling it up and spitting on it. That's what it means to secede.

reply to post by HopSkipJump



I would take it that those who wish to secede do so because their Constitution is being shredded.

Originally posted by METACOMET

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
A patriot supports his/her country/government regardless of who may be in political power at the time.

Wrong

I agree with METACOMET. This sentence kind of discredits your whole argument... to me, anyway.

If tyrants ruin our country, the only way that may be possible for us to save our country is to break off with what little slice of the country we still have some control over. That's why I can't wait to get back home to my Texas.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

To solve a problem you need good information first and foremost. Unfortunately I see people are focusing on the wrong issues and the msm is mostly to blame for lack of journalistic integrity. Since people are being distracted with non-issues or at best minor issues I see no hope for a better tomorrow. Sure you can be as eccentric as you want, like me for example, but that seems a very small minority compared to the sheep. The sheepherders, the extremely rich and/or masons, are very cunning to effect what they want.

How do we solve a catch 22? How do we untie the gordion knot? Secession is one answer but most likely not the best answer. There is a conspiracy to undermine america and I think you and others are oblivious to this!

Yes, we do need good information. Yes, the MSM, all sides of it are distracting us. No, secession is not an answer, it is a bigger problem.

I don't think you are looking at what secession really entails, what it really is. It's not an answer at all. It's either an empty threat or it's the biggest mistake that could possibly be made.

So what solutions do you propose?

Do you prefer empty rhetoric, much like the people you criticise?

JFK tried and he got killed in a conspiracy of its own.

Yes some folks take secession lightly and others fully comprehend its meaning.

Originally posted by Observor

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
That would be the cowardly, traitorous way out. Plain and simple.

You seem to have pretty strong words for anything that could actually work. Quite hilarious.

Seceding would work in what way?

The new nation would be overcome by the same capitalist interests that the US is taken over by. Especially since the people that would be seceding are right wing extremists that generally believe in unregulated capitalism.

The new state would be worse than the US. It would be something like a 3rd world country.

It would be like China, antebellum south, Somolia, and the Wild West all wrapped up in one place.

Originally posted by jimmiec
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

I would take it that those who wish to secede do so because their Constitution is being shredded.

So their solution is to abandon it completely?? Where is the logic in that?

....hmmm I don't have enough money to pay my bills, I think I'll just quit my job. Makes no sense.

reply to post by WaterBottle

The new nation would be overcome by the same capitalist interests that the US is taken over by.

Ah, yes, that is the root of evil in the world....

I now understand where you hail from....

Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX

I agree with METACOMET. This sentence kind of discredits your whole argument... to me, anyway.

If tyrants ruin our country, the only way that may be possible for us to save our country is to break off with what little slice of the country we still have some control over. That's why I can't wait to get back home to my Texas.

But you aren't breaking off part of the country, you are LEAVING the country. It will no longer be part of the United States. You will no longer be part of the country. If you oppose who is in political power, you work to get them out of political power, you don't abandon the entire country.

It's no longer a slice of the country, it is its own country and will set up its own government. What happens when you don't like the government it sets up? What if you have zero say in that new government? You don't get to decide to rejoin the United States, you seceded, you are no longer part of the United States. They may choose to take you back, they may say no. You have absolutely no say in it whatsoever, you left.

When you get a divorce and decide you don't like it, you can't just move back in and say "I didn't like it, we're married again". Your ex wife will call the police, have you arrested and get a court order to keep you out. When you leave, you leave. It's over. She may be lonely too and take you back or she may have found someone else and say "get lost". You don't make the decision anymore because you left. You have no say in what she does or where she goes.

If you secede, you are no longer part of this country, you have no say, you have no vote, you have no rights, you are no longer a citizen of the United States.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


it is not that THEY leave. It is that the corrupt are left alone.

Who here thinks that if ANY state secedes that they would be alone?

How many, as it stands now would secede if any state did so?

12 states, 30? How many? I can guarantee you it would not be 1.

The point is to disqualify the federal government as being legitimate by it violating its contractual agreement established by the constitution.

I am not an advocate of such an action BTW. I dont even think its necessary. No state is legally forced to listen to a damned thing the government says. We can just NOT comply.

seceding is what might happen if the government tries to use force to make a state comply with its mandates.

non compliance is perfectly legal. BUT it is not an action of "ME" leaving, it is an action of removing legitimacy from "YOU". Land does not have wheels.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

Ah, yes, that is the root of evil in the world....

Nope. People killing one another out of anger has nothing to do with capitalism. Or pedophiles, rapists, and a lot of other evil things.

The US is taken over by capitalist interests, who do you think is telling the gov what to do?

Or are you just going to deny that reality?

You can put your head in the sand all you want but that isn't going to change anything. There is still going to be a most private federal reserve running things, corporate lobbies, and wars for profit.

reply to post by WaterBottle


the US HAS a capitalist economy and society. That is like saying the Catholic church has been infiltrated by Christians.....or NY has been over run by Yankees.....

Now if you were to say that some priest was consulting Muslims on how best to convert his parish to Islam, then that might be considered an illicit action by the parish of Christians...

Or a capitalist consulting with socialists or communists to try and convert his capitalist people into the new craze he likes....then that might as well be seen as subversive and wrong by his people....traitorous even.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

So what solutions do you propose?

Do you prefer empty rhetoric, much like the people you criticise?

JFK tried and he got killed in a conspiracy of its own.

Yes some folks take secession lightly and others fully comprehend its meaning.

I don't know the answer, but we need to come up with one. There are things we can do. We can remove people from office either before or after their term is up by one means or another (legally). We can elect people who will carry out our wishes. We can influence our representatives to pass laws we want and block laws we don't and throw them out of office if they don't.

If you are able to organize enough people to secede (which you aren't, it's a small group, not the entire state by any means), then you can organize enough people to make a difference, to protest, to vote, to run, to do many, many things. However, you have to organize them first.

I don't know how to organize them, I don't even know where to start. But I do know it can be done. You mentioned JFK. Yes, he was assasinated, but he made differences before he was. Martin Luther King Jr. He was assasinated, but he made a difference before he was and after he was. All the great people that we cite when we discuss things, they did the work, they made a difference. It's not easy, it's not quick, but it can be done. Until we are willing to put in the work and the dedication, it won't change.

There are answers out there. We have the internet, we can search for groups who think the way we do, we can get involved, we can do the work and we can make a difference. Or, we can sit on our hands and shout at the top of our voice, we can threaten to secede with no intention of actually doing it just to cause a distraction that only makes things worse, not better. Which one will you do?

I have no respect for empty threats and I have no respect for traitors against the country. Secession isn't the answer, it's one of the problems. They are not patriots, they are traitors. It is the very definition of what a traitor is.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


The USA has a mixed economy.

And um... the country is corrupted by corporations lobbying the country (capitalists interests). Like I said, if you want to ignore it, do so at your own peril.

reply to post by WaterBottle


what you ignorantly call capitalism is in fact CORPORATISM.

Special interest groups representing a larger group they supposedly represent....

Corporatism, also known as corporativism has more than one meaning. It may refer to political, or social organization that involves association of the people of society into corporate groups, such as agricultural, business, ethnic, labour, military, patronage, or scientific affiliations, on the basis of common interests. Corporatism is theoretically based upon the interpretation of a community as an organic body. The term corporatism is based on the Latin root word "corpus" (plural – "corpora") meaning "body".


In 1881, Pope Leo XIII commissioned theologians and social thinkers to study corporatism and provide a definition for it. In 1884 in Freiburg, the commission declared that corporatism was a "system of social organization that has at its base the grouping of men according to the community of their natural interests and social functions, and as true and proper organs of the state they direct and coordinate labor and capital in matters of common interest".

en.wikipedia.org...

corporatism, Italian corporativismo, also called corporativism, the theory and practice of organizing society into “corporations” subordinate to the state. According to corporatist theory, workers and employers would be organized into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and controlling to a large extent the persons and activities within their jurisdiction. However, as the “corporate state” was put into effect in fascist Italy between World Wars I and II, it reflected the will of the country’s dictator, Benito Mussolini, rather than the adjusted interests of economic groups.

Although the corporate idea was intimated in the congregationalism of colonial Puritan New England and in mercantilism, its earliest theoretical expression did not appear until after the French Revolution (1789) and was strongest in eastern Germany and Austria. The chief spokesman for this corporatism—or “distributism,” as it was later called in Germany—was Adam Müller, the court philosopher for Prince Klemens Metternich.

Müller’s attacks on French egalitarianism and on the laissez-faire economics of the Scottish political economist Adam Smith were vigorous attempts to find a modern justification for traditional institutions and led him to conceive of a modernized Ständestaat (“class state”), which might claim sovereignty and divine right because it would be organized to regulate production and coordinate class interests.

www.britannica.com...

It is actually directly in conflict with true capitalism. The only role of government in capitalism is to set limitations. Regulations. NOT hand out public money or favor one business (group) over the other. In a true capitalism, a bad business fails and a better more competitive one takes its place.

Bailing out banks with public money is NOT capitalism.....it goes against its basic principals of the consumer deciding who they keep around and ridding their community of the ones they dont support.