Miracles that DIDN'T happen.

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posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 05:59 PM
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I created a thread called List your miracles. It was supposed to be about looking at these miraculous incidents from a purely rational standpoint. The thread went in different directions (which I don't mind at all), but the few miracles listed were about life experiences that were nothing short of horror stories. I couldn't debate these miracles because I would have felt cruel in doing so.

So, I'd like to come at this topic from a different angle. Where a few have looked at a tragedy in their lives and discovered a miracle there, it makes me wonder just how many stories are out there that didn't end Happily Ever After, or with a hint of miraculous intervention.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if I ever experienced something of a personal nature that I might think it a miracle, I would be compelled to stop a moment and think: Wait a minute here, where was the miracle for the six million Jews murdered by Hitler? Where was the miracle for the 300,000 killed in the recent tsunami?

Where was the miracle for the people of Haiti? From wiki, did you know that

the Haitian government reported that an estimated 316,000 people had died [as a result of the earthquake], 300,000 had been injured and 1,000,000 made homeless.
2010 Haiti Earthquake

If a miracle happened for me, in my fairly safe home, in my fairly safe country, where food and medicine is plenty, I would have to seriously doubt the miracle and mark it as a random, natural occurrence. To think otherwise would make me a terribly arrogant person in concluding that I am somehow special in the eyes of a god when, apparently, millions and millions were not.



edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 06:17 PM
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I think there would have been many Haitians who survived would have considered their survival miraculous.
You often hear after major earthquakes where people are found buried under rubble many days later and sometimes babies that have somehow survived.
I think we all feel for those who lose their lives and their families who have to battle on after tragedy, who knows why these things happen.
The only way I can rationalise it is that somehow there is a lesson in it for someone otherwise it justs seems an injustice and very cruel.



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
I created a thread called List your miracles. It was supposed to be about looking at these miraculous incidents from a purely rational standpoint. The thread went in different directions (which I don't mind at all), but the few miracles listed were about life experiences that were nothing short of horror stories. I couldn't debate these miracles because I would have felt cruel in doing so.

So, I'd like to come at this topic from a different angle. Where a few have looked at a tragedy in their lives and discovered a miracle there, it makes me wonder just how many stories are out there that didn't end Happily Ever After, or with a hint of miraculous intervention.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if I ever experienced something of a personal nature that I might think it a miracle, I would be compelled to stop a moment and think: Wait a minute here, where was the miracle for the six million Jews murdered by Hitler? Where was the miracle for the 300,000 killed in the recent tsunami?

Where was the miracle for the people of Haiti? From wiki, did you know that

the Haitian government reported that an estimated 316,000 people had died [as a result of the earthquake], 300,000 had been injured and 1,000,000 made homeless.
2010 Haiti Earthquake

If a miracle happened for me, in my fairly safe home, in my fairly safe country, where food and medicine is plenty, I would have to seriously doubt the miracle and mark it as a random, natural occurrence. To think otherwise would make me a terribly arrogant person in concluding that I am somehow special in the eyes of a god when, apparently, millions and millions were not.



edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



Luke 4:14-30

New International Version (NIV)


Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:


18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[a]

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23 Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”

24 “Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

Biblegateway



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 07:02 PM
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reply to post by Wonders
 


Wonders, please don't turn into a mindless bible quoter. You're better than this. You have your own mind, please use it.
edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Wonders
 


Wonders, please don't turn into a mindless bible quoter. You're better than this. You have your own mind, please use it.
edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)


...actually, what's mindless is completely ignoring the point and purpose of the quote simply because it's from a book you don't agree with.

His point stands.



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by Awen24

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Wonders
 


Wonders, please don't turn into a mindless bible quoter. You're better than this. You have your own mind, please use it.
edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)


...actually, what's mindless is completely ignoring the point and purpose of the quote simply because it's from a book you don't agree with.

His point stands.


Is the thread title, Please quote all passages from the bible? We come here to share personal thoughts, opinions and ideas. Imagine if everyone just C&P'd everything or just posted links to video clips? Boring to the point where no one would come here anymore.

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edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 07:36 PM
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He's not just cutting and pasting, though...
he's using a quote to express a point from the Bible, which ties directly in to the topic of miracles - miracles being a supernatural expression, after all.

My only criticism is that he didn't expound on it - some commentary would have been nice - but to discount his point entirely because you don't like the fact that he's quoted from the Bible, is narrow-minded and contradictory, especially for someone who just quoted Richard Dawkins...

should I now ignore your point and tell you to use your own brain instead of Dawkins'?



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by Awen24
 





he's using a quote to express a point from the Bible


And I'm asking him to express his own points. That's all. I've read replies from this person before and I know he/she is full of ideas of his own.



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by Awen24.

should I now ignore your point and tell you to use your own brain instead of Dawkins'?


YES! If we don't express our own opinions then we're just being mindless carriers of the ideas of others. What would be the point? Hell, what would be the point of living?
edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Awen24.

should I now ignore your point and tell you to use your own brain instead of Dawkins'?


YES! If we don't express our own opinions then we're just being mindless carriers of the ideas of others. What would be the point? Hell, what would be the point of living?
edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)


This is incorrect... because sometimes others express a point in better language and syntax than we ourselves could come up with - hence the point of quoting - like your (correct) use of Dawkins - which is not a point in and of itself, but an extension upon the point that you yourself made in your post.

It isn't that it's not YOUR idea, it isn't that you've simply "mindlessly carried his ideas", but that he's made an express point in a manner that you have neither the time nor the space to convey in your own words in this space - and so using his existing logic and reasoning furthers your own argument through incorporation.

Perfectly valid.

...as is quoting the Bible. It isn't a mindless engagement (in fact, the Bible itself expressly forbids that kind of engagement with the text - stating that Christians should be "always ready to give an answer", "wise as serpents, gentle as doves", "not given to vain repetition", etc.), but a logical, rational engagement with a text that succinctly encapsulates a simple truth -

in this case, the truth that no man, woman or child is entitled to a miracle - that miracles are an expression designed to signify a single point - the complete "otherness" and glory of God... and His mastery over all things.

So why does one person receive a miracle, while another doesn't? Well, I'm not God - so I can't directly answer that question... there may be specific reasons as to why or why not that I'm not aware of - but I am aware of a general principle that the Bible presents.

Romans 9:


14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, x“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


This is a difficult point to accept - even for Christians...
but the teaching presented here suggests that none of us are in a position to argue against the will of God as displayed in the life of man. The primary reason for this is the fact that we are merely the clay; God is the potter. We're no better equipped to understand His purpose in our lives than the clay is to the potter. In fact, the only knowledge and understanding of our own purposes in the grander plan of God stems from God Himself, and from what He has chosen to make known to us.

So why a miracle in Cana, turning water into wine, and not in Haiti, where thousands died?

We will never know in this lifetime. To us, this seems a tragedy - possibly even an injustice. It's true that God could have saved these people from the earthquake and ensuing devastation, and chose not to. However, it is also an inherent truth of our existence that we are a limited people. We see in part, we know in part, we understand based on a very limited context of our own perspective. We cannot possibly be in a position to make an educated, logical and rational emotional response to such a phenomenon.
God undoubtedly has His purpose (He always does), whether that be something explicit (to show His glory in some way), or implicit (to allow the world to continue expressing its fallen nature). We gain what understanding we can, from what perspective we can... but ultimately I trust the creator of the Universe to do what is right... and take comfort in the fact that the day is coming when all Creation will be reconciled to Him.



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 10:19 PM
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You know what, jiggerj?

As you know from your other thread (which had more promise, in my opinion,) my life has been affected by miracles, both those that happened that those that didn't. But my personal philosophy is this:

I'm thankful for the miracles that I've received, I don't complain about those that I haven't.

That seems reasonable, no? I'd wager that, if you spent sufficient time in reflection, you could come up with a list of unexplainable things in your life that you could be grateful for, no matter whether you're thankful to God or happenstance.

Don't rely on Dawkins for your philosophy -- outside of biology, he's pretty well viewed as a pompous oaf.



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by Awen24
 


Though I don't agree with anything you wrote, you still wrote it beautifully, and from your own mind.


I really enjoyed this though:


However, it is also an inherent truth of our existence that we are a limited people. We see in part, we know in part, we understand based on a very limited context of our own perspective.


Let's lock this down. We can only see, hear, and experience the goings on in this existence. Yes, we ARE a limited people. To merely guess at things beyond those limits is just that - a guess.

We can see death, but nothing beyond it. The evidence here should suggest to us (the limited people) that there is nothing beyond death - until we can actually see beyond death.

Believers support the idea of miracle healings, yet not once has any god healed an amputated limb. This suggests that if there are miracle healings, this power came from the human mind, and nowhere else.

We read of man's historical toils and strife and war and cruelty and torture, year after year, century after century, for over five thousand years, and we claim there's a god behind this madness. Not just a god, but a loving god. It makes no sense.

We WANT a god to exist without understanding just what a nightmare it would be if he did exist. Hitchins had it right when he said it would be like having a father that never went away - ever! He would know your every thought, follow you into the bathroom, check to make sure what sexual position you're using, and even in your death you will never escape him. This is a sick thought.

"Worship me or go to hell." This is what most believe that god is all about. And, this would be the ravings of a maniacal tyrant.

Then Jesus comes along with 'Turn the other cheek.' 'If a man steals your coat, give him your shirt.' This only serves to make us sheep, and does nothing to make abusers and thieves stop. If you turn the other cheek every time, then the man will steal your coat every time. This is not wise.

If we are, as you rightly say, a limited people, then shouldn't we live according to those limits? To live only by what is in front of us? To trust only in what we can prove?

Keeping with the idea that god is GOD, if he wanted us to know more, then he would declare those things so loud and so clear as to leave no way for us to misinterpret anything.



edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)
edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
You know what, jiggerj?

As you know from your other thread (which had more promise, in my opinion,) my life has been affected by miracles, both those that happened that those that didn't. But my personal philosophy is this:

I'm thankful for the miracles that I've received, I don't complain about those that I haven't.

That seems reasonable, no? I'd wager that, if you spent sufficient time in reflection, you could come up with a list of unexplainable things in your life that you could be grateful for, no matter whether you're thankful to God or happenstance.

Don't rely on Dawkins for your philosophy -- outside of biology, he's pretty well viewed as a pompous oaf.


LOL Dawkins is revered as the pope of atheism. That said, I've lost two children, had things happen that make no sense, and I don't blame a god for such things. Bad things happen because bad things happen - that's all. If I were to think that a god is punishing me for something, I would, 1. Be frightened to death by this supposedly all-loving god. And, 2. Hate him for taking it out on my children and the people around me. Just like I would hate him for killing everything in a great flood and for killing innocent firstborn Egyptians because of a lunatic pharaoh.

No, I don't blame a non-existent god for things that didn't happen.

For all of the good things that happened in my life (my wonderful twin daughter that survived birth, for the publishing of a few of my short stories, for winning a few writing contests, for the money that seemed to just fall into my hands when I needed it), why should I credit a god for this and not blame him for the bad things?

In ancient times mankind attributed plagues and every skin disease on the wrath of god. It made sense to them because they didn't know anything about the viruses in the microscopic world. We are no different today when we hear of someone miraculously cured, and a thousand years from now people will say that we gave credit to god for these things because we didn't know about...whatever it is we don't yet know about.

There are some things that are out of our control.
Coincidences happen - a lot!
By our very own natural human nature, WE made this world into what it is today. There is nothing magical about it. There is no god behind the steering wheel. There are no messages from above.
edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


I'm very sorry for the loss of your children. If nothing else, realize that that is a sincere mourning.

My own personal perspective is that God plays little "injective" role in our daily lives -- my wife, as an example, was born with terrible genetics, which resulted in her death at age 46. Could God have saved her? Yes, I think so, but I have a hard time complaining about the fact that he didn't. That is, in effect, the atheist perspective.

Is there any hope in that perspective? Any positivity?

No, there is not.

If we accept a perspective that is beyond that, do we necessarily need to cast a logical, sensible position to the wayside? Yes, unless there is contrary evidence, which I have seen. But the only way that one sees such contradictory evidence is if one opens their eyes, mind and heart to such. It's really not much of a compromise to make such an effort -- what is the opposition's claim in this area? Self-righteousness? Some temporary sense of moral superiority?

In short... a sense of oblivion, hopelessness and loss, in the face of hope, reassurance and strength. Hard to see how anyone thinks that the former is a better position, even if God didn't exist. The fact that he does, and strengthens the person, is just icing on the cake for those bold enough to give it a shot.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:01 PM
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I'm getting to the age where waking up well everyday is a miracle.


If our idea of "miracle" comes from belief that they are dispensed from a god (God), then, yes, that is hard to reconcile with a miracle not given, unless we blame that god or ourselves, or, probably more honestly, state that it's a religious "mystery". Although I come from a Christian background, I know that other faiths/religions have the idea of "miracles".

Humanity is lurching forward in spiritual development, with the "next level" being the death of the mythic God. The below sums up the read, but it would probably be better to read the whole chapter, or better yet, the book to begin to understand.


Mythic consciousness, however, was a great step forward from the world of tribes because you did not need to meet the even more materialistic requirement of blood kinship to belong. Anyone could be converted and belong. True, it was far below the level of consciousness that Jesus and his disciples preached. But most Christians, even in the early Church, were incapable of understanding Jesus except in a mythic way. They thought mythically and saw the world mythically. So Christianity, despite what Jesus and his disciples said and wrote, was soon reduced to the level of mythic consciousness and, for the most part, has stayed that way, at least at the popular level, for most of these last two thousand years.

source

The author discusses the next level, which is going to be a long time coming for humanity, but at least is possible, since we've evolved from tribal consciousness and are going through mythic.


It's psychological wholeness. It's the elimination of the shadow or the total integration of the shadow into the personality. I think there are a lot of gurus and masters out there who may be enlightened but who are, nevertheless, not psychologically whole.

source

Maybe this quote from Viktor Frankl, death camp survivor, is what the next stage looks like: When we are no longer able to change a situation - we are challenged to change ourselves.

And in that Wholeness, we find Ourselves, Others, and One.





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