I think there would have been many Haitians who survived would have considered their survival miraculous.
You often hear after major earthquakes where people are found buried under rubble many days later and sometimes babies that have somehow survived.
I think we all feel for those who lose their lives and their families who have to battle on after tragedy, who knows why these things happen.
The only way I can rationalise it is that somehow there is a lesson in it for someone otherwise it justs seems an injustice and very cruel.

He's not just cutting and pasting, though...
he's using a quote to express a point from the Bible, which ties directly in to the topic of miracles - miracles being a supernatural expression, after all.

My only criticism is that he didn't expound on it - some commentary would have been nice - but to discount his point entirely because you don't like the fact that he's quoted from the Bible, is narrow-minded and contradictory, especially for someone who just quoted Richard Dawkins...

should I now ignore your point and tell you to use your own brain instead of Dawkins'?

Originally posted by Awen24.

should I now ignore your point and tell you to use your own brain instead of Dawkins'?

YES! If we don't express our own opinions then we're just being mindless carriers of the ideas of others. What would be the point? Hell, what would be the point of living?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Awen24.

should I now ignore your point and tell you to use your own brain instead of Dawkins'?

YES! If we don't express our own opinions then we're just being mindless carriers of the ideas of others. What would be the point? Hell, what would be the point of living?

edit on 1/19/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

This is incorrect... because sometimes others express a point in better language and syntax than we ourselves could come up with - hence the point of quoting - like your (correct) use of Dawkins - which is not a point in and of itself, but an extension upon the point that you yourself made in your post.

It isn't that it's not YOUR idea, it isn't that you've simply "mindlessly carried his ideas", but that he's made an express point in a manner that you have neither the time nor the space to convey in your own words in this space - and so using his existing logic and reasoning furthers your own argument through incorporation.

Perfectly valid.

...as is quoting the Bible. It isn't a mindless engagement (in fact, the Bible itself expressly forbids that kind of engagement with the text - stating that Christians should be "always ready to give an answer", "wise as serpents, gentle as doves", "not given to vain repetition", etc.), but a logical, rational engagement with a text that succinctly encapsulates a simple truth -

in this case, the truth that no man, woman or child is entitled to a miracle - that miracles are an expression designed to signify a single point - the complete "otherness" and glory of God... and His mastery over all things.

So why does one person receive a miracle, while another doesn't? Well, I'm not God - so I can't directly answer that question... there may be specific reasons as to why or why not that I'm not aware of - but I am aware of a general principle that the Bible presents.

Romans 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, x“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

This is a difficult point to accept - even for Christians...
but the teaching presented here suggests that none of us are in a position to argue against the will of God as displayed in the life of man. The primary reason for this is the fact that we are merely the clay; God is the potter. We're no better equipped to understand His purpose in our lives than the clay is to the potter. In fact, the only knowledge and understanding of our own purposes in the grander plan of God stems from God Himself, and from what He has chosen to make known to us.

So why a miracle in Cana, turning water into wine, and not in Haiti, where thousands died?

We will never know in this lifetime. To us, this seems a tragedy - possibly even an injustice. It's true that God could have saved these people from the earthquake and ensuing devastation, and chose not to. However, it is also an inherent truth of our existence that we are a limited people. We see in part, we know in part, we understand based on a very limited context of our own perspective. We cannot possibly be in a position to make an educated, logical and rational emotional response to such a phenomenon.
God undoubtedly has His purpose (He always does), whether that be something explicit (to show His glory in some way), or implicit (to allow the world to continue expressing its fallen nature). We gain what understanding we can, from what perspective we can... but ultimately I trust the creator of the Universe to do what is right... and take comfort in the fact that the day is coming when all Creation will be reconciled to Him.

You know what, jiggerj?

As you know from your other thread (which had more promise, in my opinion,) my life has been affected by miracles, both those that happened that those that didn't. But my personal philosophy is this:

I'm thankful for the miracles that I've received, I don't complain about those that I haven't.

That seems reasonable, no? I'd wager that, if you spent sufficient time in reflection, you could come up with a list of unexplainable things in your life that you could be grateful for, no matter whether you're thankful to God or happenstance.

Don't rely on Dawkins for your philosophy -- outside of biology, he's pretty well viewed as a pompous oaf.

Originally posted by adjensen
You know what, jiggerj?

As you know from your other thread (which had more promise, in my opinion,) my life has been affected by miracles, both those that happened that those that didn't. But my personal philosophy is this:

I'm thankful for the miracles that I've received, I don't complain about those that I haven't.

That seems reasonable, no? I'd wager that, if you spent sufficient time in reflection, you could come up with a list of unexplainable things in your life that you could be grateful for, no matter whether you're thankful to God or happenstance.

Don't rely on Dawkins for your philosophy -- outside of biology, he's pretty well viewed as a pompous oaf.

LOL Dawkins is revered as the pope of atheism. That said, I've lost two children, had things happen that make no sense, and I don't blame a god for such things. Bad things happen because bad things happen - that's all. If I were to think that a god is punishing me for something, I would, 1. Be frightened to death by this supposedly all-loving god. And, 2. Hate him for taking it out on my children and the people around me. Just like I would hate him for killing everything in a great flood and for killing innocent firstborn Egyptians because of a lunatic pharaoh.

No, I don't blame a non-existent god for things that didn't happen.

For all of the good things that happened in my life (my wonderful twin daughter that survived birth, for the publishing of a few of my short stories, for winning a few writing contests, for the money that seemed to just fall into my hands when I needed it), why should I credit a god for this and not blame him for the bad things?

In ancient times mankind attributed plagues and every skin disease on the wrath of god. It made sense to them because they didn't know anything about the viruses in the microscopic world. We are no different today when we hear of someone miraculously cured, and a thousand years from now people will say that we gave credit to god for these things because we didn't know about...whatever it is we don't yet know about.

There are some things that are out of our control.
Coincidences happen - a lot!
By our very own natural human nature, WE made this world into what it is today. There is nothing magical about it. There is no god behind the steering wheel. There are no messages from above.