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Should the US must keep supporting Israel?

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posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by judge

Perhaps the USA should support the relocation of Israel?.



Recently, I did some research and learned that there had indeed been arguments within the Zionist community as to where a legitimate Israel should be located. This was a surprising to me, as I had always considered the current location to be consistent with the Biblical location of the "promised land."

I think that there are too many Jews who support the "promised land" idea for this proposal to be viable, but I for one would be more than happy to let Jews have a parcel of land adequate to their needs within the conitguous forty-eight as a peaceful homeland for the Jews.

I don't believe that author's proposed location between Utah and Nevada would be suitable to many because it is landlocked. How about Florida?


[edit on 04/10/28 by GradyPhilpott]




posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Djarums
Taibunsuu, actually the government of Israel will never become similar to Iran's for a very simple reason. The ruling party HATES observant religious Jews. One doesn't need to look far to figure that out based on the policies of the past few years.



Never say never.


The CIA figured that Iran would be ruled by the Shah for the next ten years - in 1978.

Yitzak Rabin was assasinated by a right-wing Jew who feared he was giving Israel 'to the Arabs.'

So, in a civil war, it really doesn't matter what a government hates. It's whether a people can stay united.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by judge
Perhaps the USA should support the relocation of Israel?.

Just a thought.


I wouldnt be against the idea of relocating them, assuming they would go for it, I would however be totally against just giving them US land to make their own state. In my opinion if all 5 million Jews wanted to leave the sandbox behind and become LEGAL American citizens all I would have to say is welcome aboard.
Personally I would have no problem with a one-time wave of five million LEGAL immigrants, regardless of their nationality, as opposed to the roughly three million ILLEGAL immigrants we receive yearly across our southern border.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 08:04 PM
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i see some of you have no loyalty to friends, why stop supporting them?



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 08:13 PM
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Relocation? Perhaps you missed the point behind the whole fight. They don't both want LAND, they want THAT LAND.

Oh and Grady... Gazrok and myself alluded to Mr. Arafat's crazy past in another thread and I realized that most people see him as an old man who's been holed up in a house for years and never hurt anyone. It's nice to see someone who recalls a little bit of real history.

[edit on 10-28-2004 by Djarums]



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 08:30 PM
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verfed, your just as ignorant by calling everyone else ignorant.

Do you have any compassion for anything other than yourself and Isreal?

Edit: grammer

[edit on 28-10-2004 by jmilici]



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 08:31 PM
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Relocate Israel....what a novel thought. It was proposed early in the 20th Century to establish a Jewish state in the far unihabited North West of Australia in recognition of the ability of Jewish settlements in Palestine to become thriving argicultural centres.

White Christian Australia was not for it. Neither were the majority of Jews apparently.

You got to remember, from what I have been told by Jewish customers and from what I read, even many secular Jews have strong emotional bonds to what they see as thier ancient roots in the region......every bit as dearly held as a Palestinians. Whether the arguments of both is based on rocky ground is moot. Its what they beleive.

The Palestinians and the Israeli hardliners are almost as bad as each other nowdays, although personally hope recent events mark a cross roads. Right Wing Israeli hardliners and Palestinian terrorists will no doubt both do thier best to derail any progress. Strange bedfellows hey?

My brother in law lived in Belfast for several years, and his Australian accent largely kept him safe, despite his scots-irish catholic background. But workmates got kneecapped for doing tradesman contract work on Establishments. He said the thing about the terrorists on both sides was the realisation they had that if they accepted the troubles were ending they would no longer be big men, but common thugs and murders in thier own communities. They already controlled organised crime in the name of the struggle.

IMO thats what the extreme factions in the middle east are worried about too....becoming irrelevant in a stable Arab-Israeli region.

Cut off Israel economically to go it alone. Look at the country. Do you think it can support itself on what they trade. They couldnt maintain the living standards or thier defences on it. The US Military aid and Economic aid go hand in hand. Impoverish the Israelis as well and you are doing no one any favours.

I admire Israel for surviving and growing in the face of the hostility it expereinced from day one. The UN diplomats who tried to ensure that neither side had the advantage of common and grouped territories ignored completely that while the Israelis were completely alone in thier enclaves, the Palestinians had adjoining neighbouring arab states that had no love for Israels existence from word go.

Sorry I dont sympathise with those who think they should just have laid down and died.

That said they have got more bloody minded as the terrorism continues and Western democracies pilory them. At the moment I think some Arabs and some Israelis deserve each other.

If there is no other valid argument for the US continuing to support Israel I can think of one. Self preservation and interest.

The US will do its best to stop any other regional nation, especially arab muslim ones from developing the bomb because if they don't, Israel will.

If the US follows the path of many european democracies and lay the bulk of the blame at Israel's feet for these troubles, calling on them to lower her defences or risk US aid and support, Israel will feel isolated and betrayed.

If they were to be proven right in thier fears (remilitarized arab zones in West Bank, Gazza, Golan Heights with heavy weapons and mil forces) and they faced attack in a weakened state, I have no doubt of one thing.

An isolated Israel with renewed enemies on all sides, and abandoned and betrayed by western democracies yet again, would have no hesitation in using her dimona nukes against her enemies and going out with a bang and F**k the rest us for F**king her.

Thats the worse case but that doesnt make it a ludicrious one.

If for no other reason its the key reason for the US continuing to support Israel, until they can grope thier way to a more peaceful state.

IMHO of one anyway.



[edit on 28-10-2004 by craigandrew]



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 09:39 PM
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verfed, your just as ignorant by calling everyone else ignorant.


So Jimilici did you believe Arafat? I'm sorry that you had to find out this way. Anyways compassion? Sure I do but that is not what this topic is about. Now Jimilica please state your position on this issue don't just badger the one person supporting Israel.

Also if you believed there are or ever were a palestinian people then yes I would say you were and/or are ignorant. If you dug just 2 centimeters beneath the surface of Yasser Arafat's lies you would see the truth.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 12:04 AM
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Lets look at the similarities here.

Sadat wanted peace. He signed the first treaty between Israel and Egypt. He was also assinated. Assinated by Zyman al wahiri. He got a prison term of 4 years and I dont think he served all of that. He is now the #2 of Al-quiada.

Rabin also wanted peace and was killed by a right-wing person. He is in jail and I doubt he will ever get out. When Rabin was killed, authority passed to Perez in ademocratic fashion. There were no civil wars, political up heavel.

Now that the scumbag Arafat is hopefully dying, he has yer to name a successor. When he does die, there will be some much infighting in the Palestinian Authority I fear only Hamas or Hezballah will rule. This will happen becuase Arafat never gave a damn about the Palestinians or their cause. He also never gave a whit for peace. As long as he could keep people in his own cabinet fighting (Abbas) he could control everything.

The U.S has stated numerous times it would work with the P.L.O on an equal footing when they were capable of proving the reforms needed. They have been unable to to so and that is why they have no independent country.

I guess there were no similarities after all.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 01:17 AM
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Israel is the only civilised place in the Middle East. We must protect them at all costs.

I AM PRO BUSH and SHARON



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 07:18 AM
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Way to go Jimmy and tomcat! Deny ignorance today! Don't believe Egyptian terrorist Arafat. Don't believe the man who invented jetplane hijackings. Don't believe the man who invented the suicide bomber. Don't believe the man who cares so little for the Arabs in Israel that he won't even name a succesor knowing full well that a power vacuum could be filled by Hamas or other terrorist organization once he dies.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 08:00 AM
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Ok I really did not want to do this, but here goes.

First I need to state, that I do not support Arafat, hijacking planes, suicide bombs etc... etc...

Second I need to say that I do not support Isreal in demolitioning homes raiding neighborhoods etc.. just to kill one or two terrorists. What I have noticed since 2000 is that for every 1 terrorist killed at least 5 civ's have been killed. To me that is not justifiable.
I also do not support the aparthied wall. Remember post WWII germany?

Verfed I am sorry but you insulted me.



So Jimilici did you believe Arafat? I'm sorry that you had to find out this way. Anyways compassion? Sure I do but that is not what this topic is about.


No I do not believe arafat. I did not find anything out that I already did not know. And it does not matter if this topic is not about compassion. It doesn't have to be. Palestinians are people too. Plain and simple. Thier blood is the same thier internals are the same. Have some damn compassion. It takes a bigger person to love thy enemy than to hate. Try to understand where they are comming from. Instead of sitting thier insulting people like you have with me


Now Jimilica

that's jmilici by the way grow up and stop being so damn immature.By the way, I also do not need to revert to name calling to get my point across. You really need to learn some debate Etiquette.

Your opinion is your opinion, that doesn't mean it is correct or the truth. You need to stop calling people ignorant that do not listen or think the way you do. By the way, after recent IDF actions of the soldier shooting the girl walking to school, you might want to update you sig and have it reflect the truth.

I am jewish, studied the torah (not alot though) been bar mitzva'd the whole nine yards. PLain and simple jews do not belong in isreal. We were exiled. Not even that the isreali's are european/american jews planted thier after WWII. If you look into it you will find that the true jews are actually arabs that were exiled from the promised land. Oh and guess where they went. Iraq. Some were killed, some converted to muslim or christianity but the fact still remains, they are the true jews.




Israel must be protected at all costs

Israel is the only civilised place in the Middle East. We must protect them at all costs.

I AM PRO BUSH and SHARON


jimmyhellfire, just becouse isreali society mimics americans does not make them civilised. If the isreali's were mature enough they would not need to do what they are doing.

You people sit here and say how we are better than them and our way of living is better bla bla bla. If we are better than them why do we revert to thier tactics and worse? The way that I see it, isreal is just as responsible for this mess as the palestinians are. Equally, 50/50. Maybe even more, considering jimmyhellfire that they are the most civilisied country in the mid east.

Here's a thought/question, what would isreal do if they had to fight this war the way the Palestinians have to. I mean the fight will finally be fair. No tanks, helicopter, jets, missals, nothing but the same stuff the Palestinians have. I think isreal would tuck their tail and run?

I think I will leave it at that.

I AM ANT1 BUSH AND SHARON.

I am jmilici and I approved this message.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 08:32 AM
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First, let me be frank and say that NO man has a right to tell another man where he can or can not live. NO RELOCATION IS JUST, ON EITHER SIDE.

Given that, the problems with Israel are many, and they are great. They have what liberals in the U.S. THINK we have here. The Conservatives there are SO conservative that they are not rational. The settlements question is their abortion, terror, and Gay marriage question in one, but much more important.

Also, a retired Israeli general once told me that you CANNOT look at Israel without looking at its Geography. Think on this...at its widest, even counting the west bank, Israel is about 60 miles East to West, on average. It is about 260 miles North to South, on average. at it's narrowest it is 9 miles wide, and 65% of the population is in that area. If you put convention artillery on the Golan Heights, you could hit 2/3 of the population. Even more extreme, a nuke on say 5 scud missiles would effectively wipe them from the face of the Earth.

The history of Israel is the history of a mean dog backed into a corner. Everything Israel does is with respect to Defense. Everything you think about Israel has to be viewed though the idea that they are surrounded by those that want ALL OF THEM DEAD. That is why they are so daring militarily, big chances usually reap big rewards. Their reward is the existence of their country. That they still exist at all shows alot about Jewish resolve.

[edit on 10/29/2004 by soulforge]



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 03:59 PM
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Jmilici what name did I call you? Ignorant? Well now that I know you don't believe Arafat I guess you aren't. I must ask you one question before I respond further. Do you believe in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob?



[edit on 10/29/2004 by verfed]



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 04:48 PM
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Jmilici what name did I call you? Ignorant? Well now that I know you don't believe Arafat I guess you aren't.


You should NEVER pre-judge anyone. Pre-judging makes one ignorant.

As far as what I believe, I believe/love/respect G-D. I do not follow any written religion including Judaism(sp). I do however still consider myself jewish.
If I pray, I go to nature. That is where I feel closest to G-D. I show respect and love by taking care of this planet as best as I could. I also (although not always successful) try my hardest to forgive and show love and respect to my friends and enemies.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 05:00 PM
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Jmilici. Very good. I respect that. It's no coincidence that when we are in God's creation we feel closer to him. You're cool man. Your response went deeper then I expected and I applaud you for that.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by Ruins

Originally posted by Fu Manchu
The truth of the matter is that Israel started the 1967 war with a sudden near-simultaneous attack on the air forces of both Egypt & Syria, followed by invasion of the West Bank, then under control of Jordan, and invasions of Egypt and Syria.

Well actually the truth of the matter was that the surrounding Arab countries were amassing large numbers of troops and machinery on all sides of Israel. Obviously their goal was a multi pronged simultaneous attack and of course to push the Jews into the sea or kill them, which ever came first. Seeing that war was imminent Israel fired the first shot, and I dont blame them for it.

If I may harp once again upon the point of effective Zionist propaganda, that inaccurate analysis is an example of what Israel's "amen corner" has been singing since June '67.

Independent analysts [independent of the Zionist lobby or of Arab money] have debunked that wartime propaganda long ago. For example, Noam Chomsky. Although he is Jewish, he is not a zionist, and usually looks at "just the facts" to the extent he or anyone is capable of doing so.

In "The Fateful Triangle," Chomsky reports:


The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was no threat of destruction but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies....Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.

Not widely reported in the zionist-controlled US press, there was this:


I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it. Yitzhak Rabin, Israels Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

I think that the important point to remember here is that to preserve the $3-6 BILLION dollar subsidy Israel gets EVERY YEAR from US taxpayers, the Israeli lobby makes darn certain most Americans don't get exposed to basic facts most everyone in Europe and Asia has had for decades.

So's not to go too long, I'll make a separate post on the idea of "relocating" Israel and the good points some folx have made about Israel's geography.

[edit on 30-10-2004 by Fu Manchu]



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by soulforge
First, let me be frank and say that NO man has a right to tell another man where he can or can not live. NO RELOCATION IS JUST, ON EITHER SIDE.


Amen. In principle, that is. In practice one needs to admit I have no right to go to Scotland and kick some folks off their sheep farm so that I can live in the land of my ancestors. But I should indeed have the right to go and look to rent or buy available housing that legal owners have put on the market.


Also, a retired Israeli general once told me that you CANNOT look at Israel without looking at its Geography. Think on this...at its widest, even counting the west bank, Israel is about 60 miles East to West, on average. It is about 260 miles North to South, on average. at it's narrowest it is 9 miles wide, and 65% of the population is in that area. If you put convention artillery on the Golan Heights, you could hit 2/3 of the population. Even more extreme, a nuke on say 5 scud missiles would effectively wipe them from the face of the Earth.


Excellent points. One would think that would make Israelis eager to make friends instead of enemies of their neighbors. Instead, zionist extremists who founded & lead the modern State of Israel quite publicly take a different approach. They believe geography dictates conquering everything from the Euphrates to the Nile, jingoistically distorting a prophecy in Genesis chapter 15 re: descendents of Abraham. The only real dispute among zionist is timing.


The history of Israel is the history of a mean dog backed into a corner. Everything Israel does is with respect to Defense. Everything you think about Israel has to be viewed though the idea that they are surrounded by those that want ALL OF THEM DEAD. That is why they are so daring militarily, big chances usually reap big rewards. Their reward is the existence of their country. That they still exist at all shows alot about Jewish resolve.
[edit on 10/29/2004 by soulforge]

Some of this makes sense to me, except the part of being surrounded by those that want "all of them dead." Jews have lived peacefully for centuries under Muslim law, because Islamic law guarantees Christians and Jews the right to organize their own communities and administer their own religions' law within their community. Things only got seriously nasty when the Brits & French subdivided the territory of the Ottoman Empire into so-called "nations," giving themselves the rights to "administer" the subdivisions under the "League of Nation." Up until that time, there was more natural human relations at work and little polarizing factional rhetoric.

There are Jews living in Palestine that lived in harmony with their neighbors, but watched Zionist Jews come in during the 1920-1947 period and deliberately terrorize both Arabs and Jews who did not get on the zionist bandwagon. Relations between Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs were deliberately poisoned so that Zionists could use civil unrest as a pretext for ethnic cleansing.

What everybody in the world except the Americans object to about the current State of Israel is that it is a racist state that denies basic rights to non-Jews, and even denies important political rights to non-Zionist Jews. It violates human rights as a matter of national policy.

Arab rhetoric being as high-blown as it traditionally is, Zionists use selected phrases to give the impression all Arabs want to kill all Jews who live in the Mid-East. This is absolutely untrue. There have been statements about "pushing Israel into the sea" and so forth, but that refers to abolishing the racist State of Israel, not wiping out Jews as a race.

One constant theme of Zionism is that the State of Israel is for ALL Jews, and for Jews only. The government of Israel claims to speak for Jews everywhere, and Jews from anywhere have a "right" to move to Israel and lease land from the government. [Almost all Israel's real estate is nationally owned and leased out for agriculture, construction, whatever] But no non-Jew, whether he is a Christian [10-15 % of Palestinians are] or Muslim can lease one square metre of Israel. The only exception I'm aware of is for foreign embassies.

The point is that as a racist state, Israel is indensible both militarily and morally. A "two state" solution as pushed through the UN in 1947-8 and subsequently harped on in all the so-called peace negotiations over the years is no solution at all.

The history of Nazi Germany shows that a racially exclusive state is really not an option in the modern world. The history of the Mormons in North America shows that a religiously exclusive state is really not workable either. Mormons are at peace with non-Mormons today because Mormons can practise their faith and own land in any of the other 49 states, and non-Mormons can own land & practise their faiths in Utah. Germans currently seem to be at peace in a larger Europe on similar principles.

Until everyone in Palestine/Israel has exactly the same rights to property, religion and communal self-association, there will be no peace. Except of course the peace of the jackboot on the back of someone's head, and the peace that comes as a lull between bombings.

[edit on 30-10-2004 by Fu Manchu]

[edit on 30-10-2004 by Fu Manchu]



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 02:29 PM
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You dont have a clue in history right?
You say Israel took over lands in hope to exstend its size.
Now back to history lessons, Israel was attacked first by arab coalitions 3 times already. In 1948 Israel claimed its independence, and the 2 state solution could be a reality because the british went. But what did the arabs do? They the one who wanted more land so they decided to attack Israel, that fought back alone and took more land, so arabs lost land because of their agression. Then in 1967 arab coalition leaded by egypt declared they will throw all jews to the sea, and Israel as nto trying to preted that the war wont happen in few days, launched teh first attack, when it knew that arav coalition will attack in few days if Israel wont do something. In this six days of fighting Israels size became 4 times larger, and again all by arab agression to kill jews. Then in 1973 arab coalition again traied to sneak an attack and destroy Israel, but again they failed, and they would loose more land if Russia and USA wouldnt have cried for seace fire by the UN hand. IDF was already over the suez channel, and was ready to take out ciro and was 25km from damascus.

Then in 1979 Egypt understood it cannot kill the jews and throw them to sea and Israel gave all the Sini that it caught in 1967 back to egypt, giving back a place 3 times larger than the state of israel. Israel gave the lands when the arabs wanted peace.

Then in 1982 PLo decided to blow up northen Israeli cities, and IDF again had to start a massive operation to stop the missile bombing and it had to invade lebanon. Then in may 2000, after promisses and negotiations the arabs claimed they will stop teh fighting if israel will go out of lebanon, and so Israel did. Again Israel gave back lands for peace, that is by the way still not there.

So from all of this you should understand that maybe palestinians will have back Gaza if they stop the terror attacks? No terror attacks=no IDF operations and defence walls in gaza and west bank.

Think about it, that arabs lost time after time more land when they tried to destroy teh israeli land. But when they stopped trying to destroy state of Israel then state of Israel get out of the lands, and today Egypt and Jordan have peace with Israel- they understood that destroying Israel is impossible for them, and I hope that Iran and other fanatics will get this idea also. But if not, we are ready to take actions to defend ourselvs.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 02:55 PM
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My own personal experience from having lived in and traveled extensively in Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt:

I have spent a great deal of time doing business with arab muslims, as well as having spent time in their homes. At one time I considered converting to Islam.

Most muslim inhabitants in those places, while otherwise kind and moral people, support the destruction of Israel, and of the United States.

The vast majority of them view their islamic civilization as being at war with the the West. Indeed, the Arabic term for non-Muslim nations is "Dar Al-Harb," Literally, the "house of war."

Not only should the Israelis be well armed and ready to defend themselves, so should we.

If you look at some pro Al Quaida websites, you'll notice that Israel is constatly referred to as "The Little Satan."

One Guess as to who the "Great Satan is." (It's not Bolivia.)

To argue that Israel or anyone else should try to compromise with Islamic fundamentalists is refusing to admit the way the world is.

Compromise requires someone who views you as a human being, and a person of worth. If the person across the bargaining table from you refers to compromise as "a tool," then you are fool to remain in dialogue with them. Compromise, after all, is how people lose their virginity.

People behave the way they do because there is a payoff for them somewhere. They get some reward for their behavior, or else they change. Knocking down the homes of civilian supporters, of 'safe houses' and of cell HQ's is a way of making terrorism expensive for the silent majority that supports the intafada. Moreover, such practices are permitted in the "law of land warfare," the backbone of what is usually referred as the Geneva Conventions.

Since Israel began this campaign in 2002, there have been few and fewer suicide bombings. Fewer dead Israelis and fewer dead Palestinians.

Having Americans and Europeans sit in judgement of Israel, and telling them how the ought to defend themselves is similar to the USA listening to France, Spain and Russia for advice on how to conduct the war on terror.



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