Why our World is a Prison Planet

reply to post by QMask

Tetra50 and QMask...

Freedom from everything. What is that?

On the surface of it, the impression is childish. Very selfish. Don't children often say they just want to be left alone? Part of growing up is realizing that we can't do or say whatever we please.

But that's this world. This world has rules. It has limits. We have to follow them to live here. Growing up means learning these rules. BUT we're trying to imagine a different world.

A world where we're at least more free, maybe completely free.

So what does that mean then? What's the result of -absolute- freedom?

Do we even want it if we had the chance to have it?

I"m not implying that we don't want absolute freedom. I'm not trying to make a straw man that I can easily destroy and then use as reasoning to discourage you from exploring this.

It's a genuine question spoken with honesty.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by QMask

 

Tetra50 and QMask...

Freedom from everything. What is that?

On the surface of it, the impression is childish. Very selfish. Don't children often say they just want to be left alone? Part of growing up is realizing that we can't do or say whatever we please.

But that's -this world-. This world has rules. It has limits. We have to follow them to live here. Growing up means learning these rules. BUT we're trying to imagine a different world.

A world where we're at least more free, maybe completely free.

So what does that mean? What's the result of -absolute- freedom?

Do we even want it if we had the chance to have it?

I"m not implying that we don't want absolute freedom. I'm not tryingto make a straw man that I can punch and break and then use as justification to reject your exploration of this.

edit on 18-1-2013 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

I do not know what absolute freedom would be or mean, as I don't think I ever had it, or don't recall it if I did.
And yes, I am simply exploring the idea. I don't object to rules, nor do I think anything I have said is selfish or childish. Consider, for instance, my responses to colin42, about spirits abilities to care for others perhaps in a more authentic way, as without a body this caring would not be based on needs, physical desires or attractiveness, etc. This is selfish or childish?

If you believe in conspiracy theory, particularly as it relates to manipulations of our systems and responses in the environment we are forced to live in and have little control over, how could you think that wishing to be free of the tool used for the manipulation is childish or selfish? I would wish no one to live in that way, nor suffer because of it.......

reply to post by jonnywhite


jonnywhite, you say, and I quote:

Part of growing up is realizing that we can't do or say whatever we please.

This world has rules. It has limits. We have to follow them to live here. Growing up means learning these rules.

Your statements above just proves again that this world is in fact a prison planet.

If you explore your own thinking a bit further, you will realize the reason why you cannot do or say whatever you please. You will realize why this world has rules.

For example:
You cannot do or say whatever you want in the work place, because that may upset the boss/manager, and you could get fired from your work. If you get fired, you don't get paid money (salary/wages) anymore, and then you cannot afford food for your body, and shelter for you body anymore.

The reason why you have to abide by the rules, and you must try to "fit in", is because, ultimately, you need life's necessities for your body, at the end of the day. Alternatively, you may also need life's necessities for the bodies of your family members. This is the mechanism that imprisons everybody here on this planet.

reply to post by jonnywhite


Let me try to explain this by using different words:

Your body is a big liability, because it needs food, water, clothing, shelter, transportation, etc.

If you didn't have this big liability, you would have been free. You would have been free from all the rules of this world.

Your body creates the liability that enslaves you on this prison planet.

reply to johnnywhite

again, I fail to see how anything I discussed, or really the OP, has anything to do with wanting to do and say whatever I wanted, without consequences. I am someone who has been hurt a great deal by others, in criminal and physical ways. So, I am really having a hard time here understanding your interpretation of what I wrote.

reply to post by jonnywhite


jonnywhite,
you wrote, and I quote:

So what does that mean then? What's the result of -absolute- freedom?

The truth is, I don't know for sure what the result is of "absolute freedom".
That was not the point of my opening post.

My opening post was about explaining to people why they are prisoners here on this prison planet.

I wanted people to understand how the mechanism works, that enslaves them here on this prison planet.

I wanted people to understand that they have his inherent liability built into their bodies.
And maybe, we cannot run from this liability.

In my opening post, I sketched the scenario of "spirit beings" in order to illustrate what life would be like without this liability.

I hope that explains a bit more.

reply to post by tetra50

Well an adult lives a life where they have to follow rules. They have to respect others. It's hard. Sometimes they have to make sacrifices. So they find some kind of balance in all the mess.

Then somebody comes up and says "Hey, I don't want no pluggin rulez!" To the person who has lived a hard life and has earned every penny, this bystander appears to be very selfish.

It's made worse when the punk wants everything handed to him/her. To an adult, this is all a recipe for disaster. A person who doesn't or can't follow rules is a walking time bomb.

Children often do that. They don't like rules, not at first. But then they grow up. Everybody eventually bumps up against the rest of the world and has to learn to control their impulses within this system. As Qmask says, none of the rules would matter much if we didn't have a body.

I was stating that on the surface of things, this is how it seems. Normally, there's this stereotype of the super rich kid who never had to work for anything asking "What's the meaning of life?"

To an adult, there's no point in asking "What's the meaning of life?" The meaning just happens because they live. A person who doesn't live doesn't know and so asks the question.

That's not how I actually feel about all this.

reply to post by jonnywhite


But I don't think I wrote anything about wanting a lack of rules or consequences.....at all. So, still I am confused that you would direct this toward anything absolutely at all that I wrote. In fact, I am more of the kind of person that you describe the child walks up to......

There has been lots of sacrifice and hard work in my life, thank you very much. And I do not see how this relates to the OP, again, or anything I have written in response. Rather, I would wish not to have this body mostly because then it would be much harder for anyone to tie me up and physically hurt me, or to steal the fruits of my labor, capacities of my mind, or manipulate any of those.

I find this world to be a place where justice is infrequent, if at all, where those with power and money can do just about anything they want to you, These kind of people are making most of those rules and deciding when and where and who they are forced upon.

And if you don't actually feel that way about all this, why in the world you write this about childishness and selfishness and rules???? I wish you would give me a concrete example from some of my posts in order to show this chidishness and selfishness, and wish to avoid rules and consequences.

reply to post by tetra50

Look at my first post here.

It was a reply to what you and Qmask were talking about.

Freedom. What's freedom from everything? Absolute freedom?

Freedom from debt.
Freedom from fear.
Freedom from pain.
Freedom from death.
Freedom from obligations.
And so on.

What I was saying is that much of what constitutes our experience in this life is figuring out how to intermingle with all of its rules. When somebody wants to throw out the rules, it makes them look careless. Like a child. If we're free to do whatever whenever, without consequence to others, how're we to learn how to intermingle? We will probably only learn how to live alone, but what about others? I love the idea brought up by the OP about how would it change our world if we didn't have a body to care for? But I have to doubt that it would really change anything since it's hard for me to imagine a reality where my actions cannot impact others or where my soul will live forever.

I can't imagine a reality where there's no conservation of energy. As in, I can't imagine a reality where things don't run out or do not have limits. Just as I can't imagine having a name if I'm infinite. How can something that has no beginning or end have a name? I think that since there's probably no such thing as infinite resources for everyone forever then there'll always be rules placed on things. And since there're always rules then there's no absolute freedom. Only a measure of freedom.

These questions are thought experiments, but that's all.

What matters to me is if we have the technology to make this world better and we do not then that's something we should all be concerned about because it has a direct bearing on this discussion. Otherwise, it's purely academic and while it's fun to talk about it's not much help.

I'm not a fan of this reality, but I do cheer when people solve problems. I wish I was smarter or more capable, but since I don't believe in absolute freedom, every incremental step helps! Sure, we're no gods, but the ants and mice and birds and plants and bugs and other things probably think we're. We're never going to answer most of our questions nor solve most of our problems.

Nirvana is always one step ahead of us. But we'll always reach for it.

Lastly, I tink QMask is right that the only escape hatch is death. Death may be the end of consciousness, but maybe that's not all bad. Maybe it's just so alien to us that it frightens us. But in the movies aliens don't always have bad motives. Sometimes they're not what they seem.

I've heard a number of people say that fear of death is the one thing that controls us most. Lose it and the body has no meaning. What happens then? Is there even such a thing?

I have fear of death. I am a slave to it. I could turn to religion and relieve it maybe. Is that such a bad thing? Or I could see so much of it that it loses its aura of mystery. Seems like a raw deal. But life isn't always fair. And maybe losing the fear of death more than compensates.

reply to post by jonnywhite

Freedom from debt.
Freedom from fear.
Freedom from pain.
Freedom from death.
Freedom from obligations.

This is your list of freedoms. We have to have a body to experience any of those. Only the last would apply to perhaps not having a physical experience.

This was what I wrote in my first response to the OP:

Your body is the first sphere of nonlocality for your consciousness, in a physical environment of layers......

Further, our lessons here, wherever that is, seem to be about the link and balance between our consciousness, identity, soul, however these fit together, and the physical realmwe experience with our bodies, producing feelings and/or emotions, which are the physical reactions our bodies provide and experience when effected by the environment, others, and/or actions or happenings....

What I am saying here is what you are, in a different way, perhaps more philosophically and less concrete, so you missed it. That is about the balance of how we relate to the environment encompassing our consciousness housed within our bodies housed within this environment--and obviously, its rules.

This was another take on what OP said about mechanism, or means by which this place operates:

I believe, as well, that "here" is designed in such a way that in order to survive, it appears we have sold our souls, or gone against the nature of life, or committed some crime against other life, to both show that we belong here and that life is itself, evil, inherently.

Think about it: the design, as you described it OP, for our survival in the environment, is that we must at some point, in some way take the energy from another living thing in order to continue on ourselves. This is just speaking to the basic needs part of your description. Taking it further, it seems increasingly we must absorb or destroy anothers' opportunities in order to achieve more than survival. It is one of the reasons our structure of popularly viewed success is scaled most efficiently by the sociopathic.

This alludes to the rules, how they are set up, in this environment, and how it further builds and justifies the "cage." It also alludes to some rules which taken to the end of their continuum, seem to hijack the soul, at the very least. It certainly does not seek to elude responsibilities or obligations. It speaks to a level above that, if you will, so that you can see a bigger picture, here, possibly.

You say:

But I have to doubt that it would really change anything since it's hard for me to imagine a reality where my actions cannot impact others

Living as spirit, without a body, does not necessarily mean your actions could not impact others, nor that we would not intermingle or have to learn to have relations with one another. It would be on another level. When you are in love and you heart is broken, no one has to act to do that. They can simply say things and exemplify them to show that they do not return this or be hurtful. Not living as spirit, we don't really know, as we are now dependent on our physical experience and perception of it, but I would imagine that there are ways to feel, even as a spirit, and give feeling, and communicate...... But what no one could do is restrain your body and torture you, leaving you a broken shell of a person perpetually and never able again to trust another human being.

You write:

I can't imagine a reality where there's no conservation of energy. As in, I can't imagine a reality where things don't run out or do not have limits. Just as I can't imagine having a name if I'm infinite. How can something that has no beginning or end have a name? I think that since there's probably no such thing as infinite resources for everyone forever then there'll always be rules placed on things. And since there're always rules then there's no absolute freedom. Only a measure of freedom.

What does naming something have to do with its infinity? The name is not its definition. I could understand not being able to define an infinite thing, but we could all still agree what to call it, could we not? Without bodies we would need no infinite resources, that's part of the point of this discussion.

The universe, indeed, does seem infinite. We can only see so far, that's all. The same conundrum, if you will, between naming infinity and defining it, in a way. If the universe is infinite, it is quite probable that there is limitless energy. And quite probably the answers to the end of limits, the end of basic needs and those doing without, the end of pain and suffering, even, no matter what you believe, is here already, but there is something keeping us from it. Finding those answers and the something keeping us from it and why, are all linked together....
Just my opinion.

But I would like to look at a different aspect to this, as well.

Not having a body, but not having a fully restored soul could be utter hell, as well.
If a soul is infinite, then it has experienced many past lives. Therefore, the assumption could be made that once the soul is freed from the body and its experiential plane of existence, it has its full awareness back, of all lives and all environments.

But let's say a clever cabal seeking to depopulate the world and wanted to defend its stance....manipulating our existence into what I have described earlier and the OP laid out, so that it seems our environment, bodies and planet, has become a living hell. Upon awareness of how many times we've hit our head against that brick wall, as OP stated, and I have often commented in my lifetime, as well, we might begin to think along just these lines.

And what if then there were some invisibility cloak put over you, but you were neither dead nor alive.....what if the world, at large, just decided to ignore you as if you weren't there, and wholly "elected" someone else as your identity (if such a thing were possible, but we are going down imaginary roads, right?) so you effectively had been "disappeared." But, in reality, you were still very much alive, inhabiting space with everyone else, still having physical needs you would be helpless to fulfill or see to, no earning capacity, etc. We know that the mind as it is in the body at present, will fracture with experiential depravation of all kinds.

The said cabal could convince the rest of the population that it was ridding people of the hell they are living through, so could any killer, for that matter. If you had loved ones, they could be told you are on to a better place, as the teller smiles comfortingly. While, really, you were right there, watching your loved ones, not able to help your children, watching your mate grieve and then seek comfort with another, perhaps.....what I am spelling out here, obviously, is a whole other kind of hell.

So any day you wish you didn't have your "meat sack," as many refer to that miraculous fleshy integration of systems of biology, and weren't in this manipulated, predicated environment, maybe we should all think it could be worse.

reply to post by QMask


100%

reply to post by QMask


100%

reply to post by QMask


Interesting read, I agree with your post and the debate here was quite enlightening.

That is the (un)fortunate thing about reality and a major contradiction, but the only way to experience freedom is knowing who you are within the body. Let the feelings of hunger, sadness, happiness, feeling like a prisoner or absolutely free. Since we are in an existence full of dichotomies and relativity, one cannot know freedom unless he knew he was in bondage.

That is why the easiest thing is to want something, wanting to be free, wanting to do this or that, but the hardest thing is to accept that which is, and without having the need to have it your way or otherwise (regardless of the situation and no matter how "good" or "bad" it is to the mind's perception). A great sense of freedom comes with it, which is beyond the mind which cannot be satisfied.

S&F

reply to post by tetra50

Also, this: you can only be defined by others if you allow them to, you wrote.

I find this extremely naive, without meaning any offense. There are many ways we are perceived and defined by others, without allowing this at all.

If you think that I am naive in the extreme that is you trying to define me. The only way you could be right is if I accept your definition of me and I don’t.

You may guess I have some very strongly held views, many people have tried to discredit and undermine them, to define me. I don’t let them.

Yes you need strength of character and resolve but to let others define you then I would say that person lacks both and will go further to say that person would try to find happiness by trying denial of the world gifted to them.

The walls people build around them is from fear and in hiding behind those walls means you dont have to confront them.

You built your prison and you hold the keys. Dont blame others for being your jailor if you refuse to open your cell door.

Again. Freedom does not exist and anyone that tells you different is a liar. Life is about choice and living with the consequences

reply to post by QMask


Maybe spirits have rules/ laws they have to follow /obey so they are not exactly free either. Like in near death exp when you are told you have to go back, sorry you can't stay. what?!!' let me stay' let me stay. It seems freedom is just another illusion ,it does not matter what state your in.I think don't be in any hurry to die ,get rid of the body, because you might get sent to a worse situation. Seems like i've turned into a woss lol just deep reflections of late and your thoughts which i enjoyed reading really allowed me to gather mine , thanks, cheers 1%.

reply to post by my1percent


Hi my1percent,

Thank you for your thoughts on this topic.

Regards
QMask

reply to post by Shuye


Hi Shuye,

Thank you for your thoughts on this topic.

Regards
QMask

F L A G S


Please people, we need more flags for this thread, please.

At the moment, this thread has only 6 flags.

How is that possible? ...with all the great people that have contributed here?

Please FLAG this thread.

reply to post by indigothefish


Hi indigothefish,

Thank you for your thoughts that you have posted in this thread.

Regards
QMask