Originally posted by Cuervo
First of all, this is not true of every culture in history. Second of all, do you really want to model our society on what cavemen used to do in the paleolithic era? Is that our template for family structure?

I'm not sure, perhaps we do. From what we are discovering, they had a far better division of labour between men and women, and were far less stuck to 'roles', everyone pulled together and helped out. The women joined the hunting groups, the men helped gather as and when such joining together was needed. In fact, right up until the 19th century, that is how most working people did things. It was only with the increase in class divisions, and the social aspirational model of the sedentary, stay at home female became widespread that women were seen as being in charge of the child raising and household maintentance that this began to change and men were seen solely of 'providing'.

There is, in reality, no such thing as a traditional family. Just families. And what works for one family, doesn't necessarily work for others. Let's face it, up until fairly recently, a huge number of women didn't even survive childbirth...so who raised those children?

I'm all about choices. And I love that more men are exercising their nurturing abilities and staying at home to raise the kids while the mother goes out to work. Why should men have to be 'leaders' all the time? Women can be great leaders, and men can be great nurturers, and fortunately, we are moving into a time when we understand that biology does not predispose us to such roles, it is about who we are and what skills we bring to the table. About making choices and not having to answer to anyone else when we exercise them.

Great posts in this thread by the way Thank you for seeing women as the multi-dimensional beings that we have strove so hard to be recognised as.

What I try to teach my children (I have male and female kids), is that we are all equal and should be paid the same if doing the same jobs. I know in the past, and possibly in the present still, a lot of women were paid less than their male counterparts for doing the exact same job. This is just downright unfair.
However, I also teach my kids that it is not a case of boys are better than girls or girls better than boys. We are like two halves of a whole and because we are wired differently to take on each of our half of the whole roles we find that boys are better at some things and girls better at others. And this is perfectly ok and normal. Love and respect, from both sides to each other... always and it is perfectly charming for gents to hold a door open for a lady or carry the shopping just as it is a nice thing to do for the woman to get a beer from the fridge for the man.
Equal but different, it is not a competition it is team work.

I was a stay-at-home mum in the face of other mums going off to work, because I felt it was the best I could do for my kids. Although now separated my kids are not out doing drugs, getting into trouble or being little horrors. All reports say they are well behaved. So I do not believe that just because you are from a broken home you will turn out to be on the criminal side of life. I think it is more to do with parenting skills and how you are brought up that really makes the difference.

...Harleys and quilted blankets...

What?, you say.

Here's my opinion, and it's one coming of much thought as well as conversation.

Men are weak because they cannot rely on each other for support and protection, unless they join a motorcycle gang or some other unsavory option... Women are weak because they cannot rely on each other for support and protection, unless they join a sewing circle or some other type of unsavory option...

It is the lack of these type of support groups that leaves us lost and unable to relate to each other within the family unit. It is these support groups that teach us how to be men and women, to keep us in check and give us the examples we need to be able to build a healthy strong family at home. We need these groups outside of the home in order to bring our problems and lay them at the feet of respected peers and elders that help us deal with life. This type of intimate support from others of the same sex is essential to certain parts of our psyche, both as women or men. It is these groups that give us the perspective, guidance and foundation we need to be the kind of men or women that can hold a family together.

Before you write off my argument take a really good long think about how we have evolved.

Unless you take a look at this idea, you will never get to the bottom of the issue. The downfall of the family is happening all over the world. It is the old divide and conquer trick. Those who would exploit our skills and energy keep us separated so that we do not become a threat. Without the foundation of the family we are like beasts of burden, living and working for others who would take advantage of us. Civilization has grown stronger and stronger while the family has become weaker and weaker, the two are directly related. Civilization needs the support of humans that do not have a family system that comes before all things. It needs mules.

It has been proven that women live longer healthier lives if they have a small group of women that they regularly spend time with throughout their whole lives. Men will naturally form gangs if allowed to, we work better and have less stress if we can belong to a group that has a sole purpose of protecting their families. Whenever men build these kinds of groups they always become successful, but they are almost always targeted by the other dominant groups in society such as government or religion.

Nowadays these types of groups (at least the healthy kinds) mostly only exist in places where the communities are small, usually in a rural environment.

My point is that men and women are wired to exist in groups outside of the immediate family, it is in these same sex groups that the identity is formed, nourished and used as a means for success in the community. These groups must stay intact for a lifetime, and their foundation has to be based on support of the family. When the group does not exist or falls apart, the family at home suffers.

We can complain about the deterioration of the family unit, and divorce and feminism etc. all day long, but the root of these problems starts elsewhere, and without basing the conversation at the root of the problem, our efforts will go nowhere.

...Harleys and quilted blankets...

To me these sound like rich people problems.

I don't know many men like the ones described by the OP. Most families I know of would be male dominated or on an equal footing. I really can't think of any where the female wears the pants.

I do agree that feminism is wrong on a lot of things like shaming women who don't chase the dirty green dollar and instead value their family, but most of the complaints I hear are huge exaggerations.

Functional, even, loving families exist. I've seen them for myself. There are many that don't work, but you can't blame feminism because your male friends have no spine. If people allow themselves to be walked all over, they will be walked all over, that goes for men and women and it has bugger all to do with feminism.

Don't blame feminists because the men you know are spineless.

Amazing.

Let me quote my wife, from just this morning.
"Feminism did NOT create choices for women, it reduced the number of choices"
"it is sadly unfinished business, that left a left of women out in the cold"

that's what she said.

i pretty much agree with that sentiment too.

If a woman would rather be a feminist than feminine, that's her decision.

I however, take pride in being a woman. I don't try to be a man. I celebrate that I'm different from men. I don't insist that I'm better. I acknowledge that my feminine qualities are a huge part of who I am and I don't try to hide them or apologize for them. They are the reason my children come running to me when they're upset or hurt, or when they just want hugs and kisses. Those qualities are also the reason that my husband turns to me when he needs love and affection. They're the reason my husband opens doors for me and feels compelled to protect me from danger. My femininity is what makes me beautiful in my family's eyes, because without it I wouldn't be who I am.

For 97% of human history, men and women have been equals. In hunter gather tribes women played an equal role in decision making and in collecting food - they could even hunt when not pregnant. When farming moved from the hoe to the plough, the strength required to operate it increased significantly and the work was dominated by men. Even when animals such as oxen began to be used to pull the plough the work rearing cattle was also dominated by males. The men then became the primary bread winners for the first time in history, while the women began to spend more time in the home and became more dependent on their husbands. As a result the men came to dominate their wives in the home.

But the most important factor in the rise of patriarchy was the start of class societies. Prior to farming their was no surplus, and people tended to move about so one could not carry much material wealth on their backs. When farming began to turn a surplus (which was stored in a granary) the keepers of the granary began to gain a status, and became like an early priest or nobility. When the ruling class was established they began to find that the greater the surplus the more wealth they could leach for themselves, so they began to find ways to increase it. One way was to ensure that the men were fit, fed and ready for the next days work - and to do this they would encourage women to give their labor servicing their husbands.

With modern technology like vacuum cleaners, washing machines, microwaves etc. the ruling class realized it is now too inefficient to have women staying at home, especially if they are only raising 1 or 2 next generation workers. It is best to exploit their labour in the factory by day, then still get them to do the housework when they come home - or even share it with their husband. Having women work means a 50% increase in the labour supply.

So now you have the ruling class behind feminism, but only now that it suits them, not because they care about women's rights.