Feminism & The Downfall Of The Traditional Family

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posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 08:39 PM
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Whoops!

I read that as "Television & The Downfall of the Traditional Family" -- which I 100% agree with.

As for feminism being the sole reason, nah... nice troll though!




posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by BDBinc
reply to post by otherpotato
 

I was told paying some to look after your children( or sending them to daycare) was a corporate model.
Having family,friends or relatives help partake and to feel that raising children is the whole village's responsibility is a tribal model.
Please understand I did not say how you should raise your children yourself or criticize you in anyway, I just said it's a corporate model of childcare (so is daycare and putting babies into it at 6 weeks) and not tribal .
I do think the tribal love and connection to the whole community was better though.


I've never heard that term... but anyway, in my case it doesn't apply. The woman we pay when we need childcare has been providing that service in our town for years. She operates out of her home and the kids consider her another mom. We have a rather extended village here. And we pay because she needs to pay her bills too!
I once went to one of those "corporate daycare centers" while pregnant and almost passed out. I considered that a very real sign this was not the model for us!



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by resoe26


Some Women need to know thier pinche role cuervo. Entiendes?


How delightfully racist. I think we understand each other now. Good luck finding somebody you can walk all over in life to cook your food and carry your spawn to full term.


Wow you really need to calm the F down kiddo . . .

You pulled in the racist line way to fast in a gender discussion. Your posts are full of blatant baiting, personal insults, and unfounded accusations.



If you are a man with vagina envy, do not blame your missing father. Blame your own inability to be a real man which probably stems from a father who thinks as you do. By "real man", I mean the kind of man who can stand on equal footing with women without crying about it.


You then proceed to insulting family members.

How about you define stand on equal footing while you are at it . . .



So... having half of our species wake up and realize they won't be ostracized for leaving their abusive husbands is a bad thing? The feminist "movement" wasn't necessarily a movement of shackling men, it was a movement to liberate a woman's perspective.


Funny the OP made a point about modern men being treated in a similar fashion and you go off about how that is how women used to be treated in a similar manner. Good one!

Domestic violence is what you have been describing here is a link to some info about it.
www.helpguide.org...


SIGNS THAT YOU’RE IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP
Your Inner Thoughts and Feelings Your Partner’s Belittling Behavior

Do you:

feel afraid of your partner much of the time?

Does your partner:

humiliate or yell at you?

avoid certain topics out of fear of angering your partner?

criticize you and put you down?

feel that you can’t do anything right for your partner?

treat you so badly that you’re embarrassed for your friends or family to see?

believe that you deserve to be hurt or mistreated?

ignore or put down your opinions or accomplishments?

wonder if you’re the one who is crazy?

blame you for their own abusive behavior?

feel emotionally numb or helpless?

see you as property or a sex object, rather than as a person?
Your Partner’s Violent Behavior or Threats Your Partner’s Controlling Behavior

Does your partner:

have a bad and unpredictable temper?

Does your partner:

act excessively jealous and possessive?

hurt you, or threaten to hurt or kill you?

control where you go or what you do?

threaten to take your children away or harm them?

keep you from seeing your friends or family?

threaten to commit suicide if you leave?

limit your access to money, the phone, or the car?

force you to have sex?

destroy your belongings?

constantly check up on you?


Funny as I think by most descriptions of modern relationships just as many women fit these descriptions as men.

Example:
Does your partner:
have a bad and unpredictable temper?
blame you for their own abusive behavior?
ignore or put down your opinions or accomplishments?
keep you from seeing your friends or family?
constantly check up on you?

My work environment is primarily women and one thing I can tell you is that if there is a man around he will immediately become the scapegoat. One of the major problems I see with the modern feminist movement is they want all the benefits and credit while taking none of the risk or responsibility. Just something I have noticed after a few years of experience.

My mother was a big time feminist and wondered by she could never keep a man when she is the definition of control freak. The ideology just doesn't mesh with reality based upon the actual chemical processes which take place in the brains of men and women.



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by Openeye
 


No offense but as to your throwing the scientific method into the mix you should be aware that you must back it up with facts and figures. These facts an figures would also show that advances in science and technology have been driven by the male gender.

So your argument on that front is essentially moot.

This is not to scoff at women it is just merely the facts on the matter you brought up.

Science
en.wikipedia.org...


Women in science
Main article: Women in science

Science is largely a male-dominated field, with notable exceptions.[81] A large majority of male scientists are the ones who have made the discoveries, written the books and thus have written the rules of what to study and how to study it. There is evidence suggesting that this is a product of stereotypes (e.g. science as "manly") as well as self-fulfilling prophecies.[82][83] Experiments have shown that parents challenge and explain more to boys than girls, asking them to reflect more deeply and logically.[84] Physicist Evelyn Fox Keller argues that science has masculine stereotypes causing ego and competitiveness to obstruct progress, and that these tendencies prevent collaboration and sharing of information.[85]

Women have faced a lot of discrimination getting not only credit for their scientific discoveries but also getting opportunities. Both in research and professorship the quantity of females are very limited in comparison to their male counterparts.[86] The lack of females in science can be directly associated with the social atmosphere which has always treated science as a more masculine area of study.[87] Beginning with boys being pushed more towards academia and girls being confined to the domestic sphere, females have faced both discrimination and difficulty entering into science. Those who are a part of the scientific community find it difficult to break the "glass ceiling" which thus limits how far they can advance within the field. The barrier between work and home has also been an obstacle that women have had to overcome to succeed in the sciences. The achievements of women in science are attributed to their defiance of traditional status of being a laborer within the domestic sphere.[88]

Feminist authors and leaders who hail from various educational backgrounds such as Londa Schiebinger, Anne Fausto-Sterling, Bonnie Spanier, and Evelyn Fox Keller[89] have published many works interpreting and critiquing science from a feminist perspective. Some criticisms include the gendered metaphors in science, the lack of representation of females in the sciences, how science is used to back up the ideals of patriarchy, and sex/gender dichotomies.


Always the fault of someone else right?

Male-dominated Field of Science Explained
www.ubspectrum.com...

As to your matriarchies, where are they now? If they were better why did they not take over?

Modern feminism really denounces the scientifically tested notion that women are more interested in supporting rather than providing. This is linked to a concept called evolution.

Also the pressures of work and providing result in dramatically different levels of stress for men and women.

Stress on the Rise for Women
www.apa.org...

Women's work stress and cortisol levels: a longitudinal study of the association between the psychosocial work environment and serum cortisol.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 





Funny the OP made a point about modern men being treated in a similar fashion and you go off about how that is how women used to be treated in a similar manner. Good one!



I have empathy but not sympathy on this point. Go look at how women are treated in the media, then come cry me a river. I just stopped watching as much as possible. I don't even know what's going on in commercial land half the time.




Domestic violence is what you have been describing here is a link to some info about it.
www.helpguide.org...

Funny as I think by most descriptions of modern relationships just as many women fit these descriptions as men.

Example:
Does your partner:
have a bad and unpredictable temper?
blame you for their own abusive behavior?
ignore or put down your opinions or accomplishments?
keep you from seeing your friends or family?
constantly check up on you?


Regarding domestic violence, I agree it goes both ways. Perhaps this is another side-effect of whatever-it-is-you-are-calling-feminism: balance.




My work environment is primarily women and one thing I can tell you is that if there is a man around he will immediately become the scapegoat. One of the major problems I see with the modern feminist movement is they want all the benefits and credit while taking none of the risk or responsibility. Just something I have noticed after a few years of experience.



The problem with men is they want all of the benefits and credit while taking none of the risk and responsibility. I am not a feminist but as a woman I don't want to do these things.




My mother was a big time feminist and wondered by she could never keep a man when she is the definition of control freak. The ideology just doesn't mesh with reality based upon the actual chemical processes which take place in the brains of men and women.


I understand the control freak part. There are many control freaks out there. Did your mom call herself a feminist or are you calling her a feminist? And what do you mean by "The ideology just doesn't mesh with reality based upon the actual chemical processes which take place in the brains of men and women"? Please elaborate on those chemicals and processes.

Side note: I just read the most fascinating book on the X Chromosome. Did you know that all babies are unsexed until 6 weeks? So we are both potentially male and potentially female at the same time. We don't begin male or female. And we have no genitals.

Wouldn't life be simpler if we stayed that way?

It's a great book. I should start a thread on it.



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


Where were you earlier? I had a mob after me!



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 11:07 PM
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reply to post by otherpotato
 


I agree T.V. has become a terrible thing, women are sluts and men and retarded.

What has been the trend in society since the advent of feminism? More crime, more war, more materialism.

When I say my mother was a feminist I mean she was part of the movement in the 70's, attended rallies and raised funds. Funny how all her friends from back then are still single and bitterly blame men for all the hardships in the world. I was raised by my mother in this environment as my father could not get visitation until I was 14 due to my mother's connection with a certain local judge whom I later assisted in getting disbarred for serious breaches of ethics codes.

As to your comment about life being simpler if we all remained as ungendered infants I agree, our brains would certainly lack the cognitive development to process much at all.

As to women taking no responsibility it is entirely possible that I merely have not encountered the responsible ones. However in the past 2.5 years I have managed 31 women and 6 men. For the first several months in charge all I heard was the women blaming one man or another for every little issue that arose even though that person was fired before I ever arrived on the job. Most of the men would merely say they would fix the problem or ask how.

For example when I questioned one of my ladies why it took 10 days to organize a 4x4 room in the warehouse she went on a tirade about the head manager ordering a ridiculous amount of merchandise when the warehouse was already packed.

I have another lady who does everything she can to work in the warehouse all day and stay off the floor thinking the cameras do not work in the warehouse (even though I showed her footage of her sitting around for 40 minutes petting one of the cats, its a plant nursery). When the women who usually runs the register called out sick for a week and I told this lady she was going to run the registers, within an hour she had a stomach ache which developed into the flu until the other lady had recovered. She then proceeded to file a complaint against me to the owners about me bullying her


These issues happen every single day.

I have one woman who I want to take over for me as I am almost done with earning my second degree and when I offered her an assistant manager position she said she didn't want to be the one who gets yelled at when things don't get done.

Not to mention the endless complaints from these women day in and day out about how their boyfriend should being doing something whether it be buy them things, spend more time with them, pay for something, be more funny, take them out more and never once have I heard them mention what they do. Its just more, more, more and this can be seen in how women don't date down, when a man will.
edit on 19-1-2013 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101


Edit
One last thought.

Why do the successful almost always thank their mother first and foremost?

Most of the greats of mankind were raised and supported by women, not men. I think this is an important fact that many feminist women overlook.
edit on 19-1-2013 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 





Modern feminism really denounces the scientifically tested notion that women are more interested in supporting rather than providing. This is linked to a concept called evolution.


Source please.



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by otherpotato
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 





Modern feminism really denounces the scientifically tested notion that women are more interested in supporting rather than providing. This is linked to a concept called evolution.


Source please.


Postmodern feminism
en.wikipedia.org...


Butler

Postmodern feminism's major departure from other branches of feminism is perhaps the argument that sex, or at least gender is itself constructed through language, a view notably propounded in Judith Butler's 1990 book, Gender Trouble. She draws on and critiques the work of Simone de Beauvoir, Michel Foucault, and Jacques Lacan, as well as on Luce Irigaray's argument that what we conventionally regard as 'feminine' is only a reflection of what is constructed as masculine.[4]

Butler criticises the distinction drawn by previous feminisms between (biological) sex and (socially constructed) gender. She asks why we assume that material things (such as the body) are not subject to processes of social construction themselves. Butler argues that this does not allow for a sufficient criticism of essentialism: though recognizing that gender is a social construct, feminists assume it's always constructed in the same way. Her argument implies that women's subordination has no single cause or single solution; postmodern feminism is thus criticized for offering no clear path to action. Butler herself rejects the term "postmodernism" as too vague to be meaningful.[5]

Arguably, Butler derives this rejection to postmodernism from misreadings of Cherrie Moraga’s work. “She reads Moraga’s statement that ‘the danger lies in ranking the oppressions’ to mean that we have no way of adjudicating among different kinds of oppressions—that any attempt to casually relate or hierarchize the varieties of oppressions people suffer constitutes an imperializing, colonizing, or totalizing gesture that renders the effort invalid…thus, although Butler at first appears to have understood the critiques of women who have been historically precluded form occupying the position of the ‘subject’ of feminism, it becomes clear that their voices have been merely instrumental to her” (Moya, 790) Moya contends that because Butler feels that the varieties of oppressions cannot be summarily ranked, that they cannot be ranked at all; and takes a short-cut by throwing out the idea of not only postmodernism, but women in general.


I can provide more if you are interested.



French feminism

French feminism from the 1970s onwards has forged specific routes in postmodern feminism and in feminist psychoanalysis, through such writers as Julia Kristeva and Hélène Cixous.

Cixous argued for a new form of writing, writing with the body - a kind of writing rooted not in biology but in liguistic change.

edit on 19-1-2013 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101


Feminism
en.wikipedia.org...


Biology and gender
For more details on this topic, see Gender essentialism and Sexual differentiation.

Modern feminist science challenges the biological essentialist view of gender.[123][124] However, it is increasingly interested in the study of biological sex differences and their effect on human behavior. For example, Anne Fausto-Sterling's book, Myths of Gender, explores the assumptions embodied in scientific research that purports to support a biologically essentialist view of gender.[125] In Delusions of Gender Cordelia Fine disputes all scientific evidence for innate biological differences between men and women's minds, and that cultural and societal beliefs result in all commonly perceived sex differences.
edit on 19-1-2013 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 



No offense but as to your throwing the scientific method into the mix you should be aware that you must back it up with facts and figures. These facts an figures would also show that advances in science and technology have been driven by the male gender.

So your argument on that front is essentially moot.


I never claimed that science is not a male dominated field, my claim was that educational, political, and social mobility increased when women in the western world started leaving their homes to enter the work force.

A lot of good info here...

Women in science

If you go back and actually "read" my post you will see that I mentioned "science" when I claimed that men can raise a child just as efficiently as a women, as proven by the application of methodologies within sociology.

Just refer to the sources in this wiki article, and this NCBI article...

Family sociology

Fathers


As to your matriarchies, where are they now? If they were better why did they not take over?


I never suggested that they were better, I simply stated they existed, thus providing credence to the fact that the "traditional family" does not exist as a natural truism. Any society which has one sex dominating over the other is imbalanced.



Modern feminism really denounces the scientifically tested notion that women are more interested in supporting rather than providing. This is linked to a concept called evolution.

Also the pressures of work and providing result in dramatically different levels of stress for men and women.


This still does not prove that women are incapable of providing for a family, thus your point moot. My mother for example owns her own business and loves her job, her job is also extremely demanding and she manages her stress just fine (she is over 50).

It is also funny that this debate seems to only be relevant in the western world, if you go to south America, or a variety of African nations, or rural eastern Asian communities you will find that women often work right along side the men and share virtually all the work.

ETA:

One last thought.

Why do the successful almost always thank their mother first and foremost?

Most of the greats of mankind were raised and supported by women, not men. I think this is an important fact that many feminist women overlook.


I would necessarily agree that this is completely true. Especially outside western and modern society, hell just look at the history of Sparta, or other ancient Greek cultures.
edit on 20-1-2013 by Openeye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 12:40 AM
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I don't believe in feminism, I believe in equality.

True feminism (not this ego based drama we have now) should be about the right to choose.

You want to be a stay at home mum? Go for it, I support you! Want to be a career women? Go for it, I support you!

I believe it is a woman's right to choose whether she wants to have kids, whether she wants to get married and whether she wants to have a traditional family/marriage life without being judged for it, without pressure, just like a male is able.

I do not want kids (at least any time soon) and do not see it as my duty to do so, we have an over population problem as it is, I do not agree with marriage as I do not need paper to show my relationship status, and I despise domestic chores and responsibilities. I am an equal to my partner.

Why should I be judged for this? I do not feel fulfilment in the traditional model, I now have an option to choose. What, should I have kids and be miserable and in turn put my misery on to them?

As a young woman I experience sexism on a daily basis. I am degraded by men on the street who think it is their right to say perverse things, grope me, and be in general inappropriate, and no I am not dressing inappropriately myself.

A lot of men (and even some women!) still have a misogynistic approach to life so I believe equality is no yet here in our present age. It is even in most major religions this hatred for women!

My point is equality is the key, a balance. There is a lot of power in the feminine energy just as there is in the male energy, both are needed for harmony.
edit on 20-1-2013 by ssophia because: (no reason given)
edit on 20-1-2013 by ssophia because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 01:18 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


I started a more intensive response but realized I have to go to bed. I'll just pull out the word "subordinate" from the wikipedia quotes in your thread:

(and note I didn't ask for radical feminism or french feminism, I asked for feminism - with a reminder that I am not a feminist).




women's subordination has no single cause or single solution


This assumes women's subordination as a fact. By whose determination? Where is the proof that women are "subordinate."? I think you mentioned something about how our brains work. I have something better.

Women are the ones who pop out babies. You can artificially inseminate but you cannot artificially gestate, at least not with humans. And there is nothing you need to protect or nurture unless the baby gets popped out.

So there's your risk and reward.

I am not making this up.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 04:30 AM
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reply to post by InTheLight
 


There is nothing indignant in the post I made, try reading it again using the comprehension part of your brain.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 04:36 AM
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Originally posted by coldweather
reply to post by InTheLight
 


Why isn't there a 'hide this comment forever before stupidity fills the entire earth' button on this site?


If the comment you are referring is into the lights then I agree with you, if not you are simply reinforcing the point that feminists only support a woman's choice if its a choice that they find acceptable.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 04:38 AM
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reply to post by resoe26
 


S&F! As a woman, I am SO sick of all the feminist nonsense, I want to hurl. Preferably, the feminists, far out into space. Maybe they could go live on Mars.....

I have watched this nonsense develop for many years now, with the anti-male crap being pushed more and more. Anti-male, anti-family, anti-morals; all tied together. Meanwhile, of course, young girls are encouraged to act like loose older women. Some of the clothing they sell for LITTLE girls these days is extremely tacky! Some of the things parents do with their kids on some tv shows, even worse.

I heard a lot of the same stuff, for long years. Way back when I was single, I would hear some coworker complain, because her otherwise perfect boyfriend was saying she should quit work, and let him take care of things, so she could be home and relax. My response was usually to the effect of, "Well, if you don't want him, give him my number!" Unreal. Guy wants to work hard, so the woman can be there for her kids, and take care of other things, and she complains? Go figure! Then they complain that the kids are into things they don't like, and they have no family time. Women that quit work to stay home were, and are, put down. I heard that later on. I was working, we had two kids, and the hours were brutal. From the time I got up to get ready for work, till I was home, and could even think about planning a meal, was about 12 hours. Literally. Add in homework help, and there was no time for anything else. Saturdays were spent trying to catch up at home, and on laundry and shopping. Sundays, there was church, and we were all so tired, no one wanted to so anything. Then, I worked out the finances. After taking out, from my pay, what was spent on work clothing (all professional), meals (we had a thief, and you couldn't really keep a decent lunch there), gas to and from, wear on the car, daycare (and that was a HUGE expense, especially in summer, and the place was BAD), and the higher tax bracket that tossed us into, barely, we cleared about $150-200 a month. That was a decent job, too, white collar work, not bad pay. After all that, my husband and I both agreed it wasn't worth it. Still had people act like they didn't understand. The results were good, though. My son was home schooled after that, and was far happier. No daycare horror stories, like a stolen backpack (by a worker, not a kid _ I caught that one), kids in spare clothing because the staff would not let them inside during outdoor time for the bathroom, splinters because they would not allow toys outside, and had them playing in bark, fights because the staff didn't care what some kids did, and more. Nope, all that was GONE.
Plus, an entire day's worth of lessons took about 3-4 hours, instead of him being gone most of the day, and then having hours of homework (in the first grade...).

I don't miss any of that career stuff. My children are MY responsibility, not some school teacher's, or daycare worker's. They learn, they are happy, and well adjusted, and that's far better a reward than any career could ever be.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:18 AM
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reply to post by resoe26
 


If you are talking about "traditional family" falling in the context of women not being servants anymore then that type of family wasn't actually a family in the first place. Marrying someone is not a boss employing a new staff member.. it is meant to be a partnership.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 07:43 AM
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The best thing about Anti-feminist's is that not one of them has actually read up on the history of feminism. They never challenge the reasons as to why feminism occurred, (Such as the need to be able to vote, have a legal identity, able to down property, acquire credit etc)

Then you tell me that men are being hard done by - But you never actually inform us how men have it worse off now.

They seem to have an inability to see women other than objects that care for you and others. Even more hilarious is the expectation that a woman should be satisfied with being looked after - from father to husband, just like property.

But what Anti-feminists are most frustrated about is their inability to adapt to modern society. Instead of actually working to solve your own problems and frustrations, you blame the "cause" without any actual solid evidence that reverting back to the "traditional" family will cure all of societies "ills"

So tell me, how do you expect to get anywhere when its basically your opinion vs actual facts?



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 08:38 AM
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I think the best kind of family is the one with a provider father and a supportive (preferably stay home) mother...Taking care of the family and the household is the most important and enjoyable part of a women's life which has been replaced by artificial and useless outside jobs in the recent century...That's why we see more and more women who act like men and lots of men who act like women and kids who act like they are from Jupiter! and dogs who act like..well you get my grip...If we take our natural feelings,roles and duties off and replace them with something trendy and periodic,soon we will not even be sexually attracted to each other anymore and I do not think that is a good thing at all,since we all would be distinct...Not to mention the amount of pain and agony a kid has to go through with a bossy mom and a wussy dad who are rarely home anyways.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by LadyGreenEyes
 



Meanwhile, of course, young girls are encouraged to act like loose older women. Some of the clothing they sell for LITTLE girls these days is extremely tacky! Some of the things parents do with their kids on some tv shows, even worse.


And you think that feminism is responsible for the sexualising of young girls? Really? This comment evidences the fact that you know little about the subject.



posted on Jan, 20 2013 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by DirtyD
reply to post by resoe26
 






I'll try to find the percentage of white America abandoning their children.



Basically, the downfall of the traditional family is caused by many factors...fatherlessness is one of them.





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