What freemasonry is to me...

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

Completely untrue. It may be the way it is "supposed to be" ... but, they DO ask non-Masons. Every non-Mason, white male I know has been asked, one in particular is asked repeatedly on almost a weekly basis. It's like a phone solicitor that just won't take "NO" for an answer except these males are in different states and the Masons asking are not associated directly with each other.

Then I would strongly recommend you contact your state's Grand Lodge and apprise them of this and the city/town you live in so that they may correct this impertinent behaviour. It shouldn't be happening (if indeed it is happening)

Fitz

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

Originally posted by thelongjourney
- That the freest people are those who can worship in any way they choose (or no way at all, for atheists).
- That the best way to do good is to do so where possible in secret, not because you are ashamed of your good works but so that you know you do good things because its the right thing to do instead of for outward praise or recognition.
- That the highest of human virtues is tolerance for all.

... I have no problem giving a black ball any applicant who thinks ...

1. What Are the Requirements of Becoming a Mason?

One of the primary requirements is that a man must believe in the existence of A Supreme Being. Furthermore, Freemasonry requires a Mason to believe that there is but one God.

2. I agree, a charitable act should be private.

3. Your own quote shows Masonic tolerance ... black balling applicants, and not so long ago, persons of particular races.

1. I didn't say anything that contradicts this requirement.
2. Glad we agree.
3. I think you didn't quite read or comprehend what I stated, or this is sarcasm and I am missing it.

The requirements to be a mason are necessary, but not sufficient in my mind, to pass a unanimous vote of the lodge. For example, to get into a university in the US you must have a high school degree or GED and pass the entrance exam (SAT or ACT, usually). Those are the NECESSARY but not SUFFICIENT requirements for admission. In reality, to be competitive for university admissions at top schools, you must do much more. You have to have a high GPA, extracurricular activities, write a good admission essay, etc.

Likewise - being male, 18 (21 in some jurisdictions), and believing in a Supreme Being are necessary but not sufficient conditions to election to the degrees in my lodge. That doesn't mean we have secret criteria we don't tell anyone about - its on the webpage and every interviewing committee asks them about their individual philosophical views. Tolerance for all doesn't mean everyone gets to be a mason. I tolerate Satanists and believe they have a fundamental right to practice their religion free from oppression, that doesn't mean they get to be masons. And I have no idea what your comment is about black balling someone because of race, my example was a racist...whose opinions had changed over time. Had nothing to do with his skin color. In fact, if I had to divide up my lodge by race, we are fairly equal in terms of percent spread across white guys and 3 types of minorities. If were being racist, someone must have forgot to tell them.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

Completely untrue. It may be the way it is "supposed to be" ... but, they DO ask non-Masons. Every non-Mason, white male I know has been asked, one in particular is asked repeatedly on almost a weekly basis. It's like a phone solicitor that just won't take "NO" for an answer except these males are in different states and the Masons asking are not associated directly with each other.

Then I would strongly recommend you contact your state's Grand Lodge and apprise them of this and the city/town you live in so that they may correct this impertinent behaviour. It shouldn't be happening (if indeed it is happening)

Fitz

In my experience lots of people claim that masons are just driving them crazy issuing invitations, especially on the internet. I have no doubt that occasionally some mason might break the tradition and formally invite someone, but the stories are so common on the internet you'd think we were sending out custom engraved invitation to half the population. I used to look into these stories some years ago, and EVERY TIME what I found was either (1) upon further inspection the person was not telling the truth because they thought by claiming to be invited they were somehow more worthy to talk about masonry or (2) the invitations are real but coming from non-masonic groups that people seem to think have some connection to freemasonry (moose lodges, or people claiming to be masons who arent recognized).

Well I am staying at my wifes parents tonight and her father not long ago came in from his funny handshake brigade meeting.

We were watching Ancient Aliens, and I was surprised to hear him say God was an alien, as were the angels, he seemed quite sincere in his statement.


This is a guy who is a regular church goer........so I have no idea what Free Masonry is about.

I just downloaded Zeitgeist for him, said he might enjoy it....

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by kudegras
I was offered a chance to be nominated back in the 90's but I was too busy at the time.
I kinda wish I had of now.

Well, considering Freemasonry doesn't recruit, the only way to join is if you ask to join. Nobody's going to seek you out and invite you... you have to come to us.

Completely untrue. It may be the way it is "supposed to be" ... but, they DO ask non-Masons. Every non-Mason, white male I know has been asked, one in particular is asked repeatedly on almost a weekly basis. It's like a phone solicitor that just won't take "NO" for an answer except these males are in different states and the Masons asking are not associated directly with each other.

So can you confirm to me that you are stating that masons from different states in the country (I assume this is the US you are referring to) who are not connected with each other are calling this white male and asking him to join? So this white male is in State A, and is getting phone calls from masons in States B, C, and D asking him to join?

reply to post by JoshNorton


Mate, I had a Printing business in the 90's and i had printed some literature for a local chapter of the Freemasons.
Knowing my Father was a Mason, I got to talking to the guy who ordered the printing about my dad.
All he said is if you are interested, I can nominate you. You are right they are not meant to recruit, it doesn't mean to say that in conversation that cannot happen, in fact it did.

Originally posted by thelongjourney
1. I didn't say anything that contradicts this requirement.
2. Glad we agree.
3. I think you didn't quite read or comprehend what I stated, or this is sarcasm and I am missing it.

1. You said in the OP:

(or no way at all, for atheists).

But, Atheists are not allowed.

3. No sarcasm. There are two main different types of Mason. One type started allowing black people to join within the last decade or two - and the other kind left it up to the lodge's discretion.

I'm talking about the real Masonic Lodge, not the black Prince Hall and other lollipop substitutions like Eastern Star for women (who aren't even ALLOWED their own meetings without a Mason male watching over them), and their junior groups.

The local lodge, the kind that can choose whether or not to discriminate - does. No blacks allowed.
The other type also has a local lodge and they did allow a black man, so, almost all of the white males bailed out.

Originally posted by thelongjourney

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

Completely untrue. It may be the way it is "supposed to be" ... but, they DO ask non-Masons. Every non-Mason, white male I know has been asked, one in particular is asked repeatedly on almost a weekly basis. It's like a phone solicitor that just won't take "NO" for an answer except these males are in different states and the Masons asking are not associated directly with each other.

Then I would strongly recommend you contact your state's Grand Lodge and apprise them of this and the city/town you live in so that they may correct this impertinent behaviour. It shouldn't be happening (if indeed it is happening)

Fitz

In my experience lots of people claim that masons are just driving them crazy issuing invitations, especially on the internet. I have no doubt that occasionally some mason might break the tradition and formally invite someone, but the stories are so common on the internet you'd think we were sending out custom engraved invitation to half the population. I used to look into these stories some years ago, and EVERY TIME what I found was either (1) upon further inspection the person was not telling the truth because they thought by claiming to be invited they were somehow more worthy to talk about masonry or (2) the invitations are real but coming from non-masonic groups that people seem to think have some connection to freemasonry (moose lodges, or people claiming to be masons who arent recognized).

So....to make a long story short, you were perpetuating an Internet meme. Gotcha. Glad your posts are demonstrating their worth

Fitz

reply to post by thelongjourney


USA yes, not phone calls. I meant the constant asking by one in particular is as constant as those soliciting (advertising) phone calls. The males are all asked by different masons ... it's not the same Mason asking each of them. It's local to their area.

Fitzgibbon said to turn them in and I sent Fitzgibbon a list of the different locations in case he wants to turn them in and noted which one was the constant asking location one.

No moose lodges here ... Masonic lodges on almost all the main intersections though.

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam
But, Atheists are not allowed.

3. No sarcasm. There are two main different types of Mason. One type started allowing black people to join within the last decade or two - and the other kind left it up to the lodge's discretion.

I'm talking about the real Masonic Lodge, not the black Prince Hall and other lollipop substitutions like Eastern Star for women (who aren't even ALLOWED their own meetings without a Mason male watching over them), and their junior groups.

The local lodge, the kind that can choose whether or not to discriminate - does. No blacks allowed.
The other type also has a local lodge and they did allow a black man, so, almost all of the white males bailed out.

I'll never get why people think these two things are "points against" freemasonry.

(1) Yes that's right, atheists are not allowed. That doesn't mean we think atheists are wrong or that they don't have the fundamental right to not believe in anything. The restriction is there because masonic philosophy is based on belief on and reverence for a Supreme Being. Its like joining the boy scouts when you don't like camping - it makes no sense. The restriction is there to prevent people from joining who are going to get nothing out of it. Its not because we don't tolerate them or treat them equally in every way.

(2) Yes, thats right, historically its true masonry had a racist past. Historically. There are a handful of lodges in the US south still like that, and I am ashamed of those lodges. World wide, 98% of lodges are not like that. Also, masonry has been around since the 1400s. Yes, we have a shameful racist past. Please show me one group with this history that was not racist? It was wrong, but it was a product of the era. And that doesn't mean many masons didnt fight to oppose it. Some of freemasonrys greatest members in terms of historical reputation were huge advocates against it. If we are going to condemn the entire institution for its past then we might as well damn the entire US government and every church in this country.

No one is claiming masonry is perfect, but the institution should be judged by its progress and where it stands today and not where it was. We still have work to do, but I challenge you to tell me of one institution that is committed to these values that is free of taint or one that has improved more. You won't find one.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
So....to make a long story short, you were perpetuating an Internet meme. Gotcha.

Glad your posts are demonstrating their worth

Fitz

Fitz I dont understand your response...

reply to post by thelongjourney


1. Cool and starred. I thought by your OP that your believed atheists were allowed; and, I was showing you they aren't. I see you already knew that and the wording in your OP is just a bit fuzzy there.

3. I appreciate the honest and candid reply. That's EXACTLY the situation here.

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam
reply to post by thelongjourney

 

Fitzgibbon said to turn them in and I sent Fitzgibbon a list of the different locations in case he wants to turn them in and noted which one was the constant asking location one./quote]

You did, eh? Which Fitzgibbon was this? Looking in my inbox; not seeing anything. 'Sides which, why involve me? You contact the relevant Grand Lodge yourself and apprise them. Cut out the middleman and be sure your message was received. Wouldn't want anyone asserting interference by a Mason, now would we?

Fitz

Originally posted by thelongjourney

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
So....to make a long story short, you were perpetuating an Internet meme. Gotcha.

Glad your posts are demonstrating their worth

Fitz

Fitz I dont understand your response...

To quote you:

Originally posted by thelongjourney
the stories are so common on the internet you'd think we were sending out custom engraved invitation to half the population. I used to look into these stories some years ago, and EVERY TIME what I found was either (1) upon further inspection the person was not telling the truth because they thought by claiming to be invited they were somehow more worthy to talk about masonry or (2) the invitations are real but coming from non-masonic groups that people seem to think have some connection to freemasonry (moose lodges, or people claiming to be masons who arent recognized).

So, to reiterate you're reposting something of which you have no actual experience but suggest is (to you) believable aka perpetuating an Internet meme

HTH
Fitz

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam
reply to post by thelongjourney

 

1. Cool and starred. I thought by your OP that your believed atheists were allowed; and, I was showing you they aren't. I see you already knew that and the wording in your OP is just a bit fuzzy there.

And you'd be not-quite correct. The Grand Orient of France dispensed with the requirement for a belief in a Supreme Being; not so the Grand Orient of Italy

HTH
Fitz

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
You did, eh? Which Fitzgibbon was this? Looking in my inbox; not seeing anything. 'Sides which, why involve me? You contact the relevant Grand Lodge yourself and apprise them. Cut out the middleman and be sure your message was received. Wouldn't want anyone asserting interference by a Mason, now would we?

Fitz

Which one? You. My copy is still in my outbox.

'Grand', another thing for the "To Do" list. (now THAT was sarcasm )

I see, you aren't 'allowed' to do that right?

Fitz I think you are misunderstanding my comments. I agree with you. My post was that in general, 99% of the time in my personal experience, people claiming to be "invited" by masons are wrong. Everywhere you look on internet forums people claim they have been invited - people making such claims as I said tend to do so either

(1) because they think by claiming to be invited they can talk with more authority about masonry
or
(2) any real invites they are getting are not from real masons, but from bodies that to outsiders may appear to be masonic due to their name or use of "lodges".

Now, with millions of masons in the world I cant say in my personal opinion that NO ONE has ever been invited. It just seems like, numbers wise, someone has broken the tradition along the way. Indeed I personally have never seen it. But I think if it happens its exceedingly rare and that nearly everyone claiming to be "invited" on the internet is not really presenting the whole truth. And certainly anyone being invited - especially multiple times - is acting in a way that us completely unmasonic and goes against all tradition.

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
You did, eh? Which Fitzgibbon was this? Looking in my inbox; not seeing anything. 'Sides which, why involve me? You contact the relevant Grand Lodge yourself and apprise them. Cut out the middleman and be sure your message was received. Wouldn't want anyone asserting interference by a Mason, now would we?

Fitz

Which one? You. My copy is still in my outbox.

'Grand', another thing for the "To Do" list. (now THAT was sarcasm

)

I see, you aren't 'allowed' to do that right?

Nothing like that. You're obviously capable when given the proper directions, 'Sides which, it's your assertion; why would I get in your way? If there's a scintilla of truth to your story, it doesn't have to come from a Mason to be actionable if it contravenes Masonic law. I'd think you'd fairly jump at the chance.

And as your message is still in your outbox, I guess I couldn't have received it, now could I?

Fitz

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam
reply to post by thelongjourney

 

1. Cool and starred. I thought by your OP that your believed atheists were allowed; and, I was showing you they aren't. I see you already knew that and the wording in your OP is just a bit fuzzy there.

3. I appreciate the honest and candid reply. That's EXACTLY the situation here.

Thank you for approaching this in a way that allows us to discuss these things and not argue...sadly, thats usually not happens when these topics come up!

I have to say that Fitz is correct though, the GODF does allow atheists, and my comments I should say are restricted to US lodges. However, concurrently, while GODF is certainly a historic lodge, I feel that it no longer represents mainstream freemasonry not really because it admits atheists but because it uses a large amount of its influence to get involved in politics. Along the same lines, there are women only and co-masonic lodges. While I respect the right of those lodges to exist and practice what they call freemasonry (no one has a trademark on the term, after all), I don't consider them to be mainstream freemasons either.

reply to post by thelongjourney


Thanks, same here, I was talking about US lodges and have no idea what GODF is; but, I don't really want or need to know what GODF is anyway.

Thanks for the thread. I learned some things I did need to know.