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Video Captures Death of CVS Toothpaste Shoplifter

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posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 04:33 PM
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Some of the comments in this thread are ... disturbing to say the least.

There are a few issues I have here.

Issue #1: This is what happens when people apply holds they have no training in. This Store Manager obviously watches to much MMA on TV and thinks he knows something. What he applies here is known as a rear naked choke. What I see in the video, he holds that choke on for over 2 minutes.

Now let us put this into some type of context. A choke hold of any kind is cutting off the air supply. How many of you reading this now can hold your breath for 120 seconds straight? If you find you are unable to hold your breath for 2 minutes straight, is it safe to assume that forcing one to not breathe for 2 minutes could potentially result in death?

Issue #2: Unlike some, I not only watched the video, but I also read the article. According to the Store Manager, he was defending himself from an attack and this homeless man had punched him. Can anyone show me in the video where this punch took place? I didn't see it. What I see if the homeless man attempt to walk away and get pushed by the Store Manager and then they begin to grapple. It was the Store Manager who turned this confrontation into something physical, not the homeless man.

Issue #3: Let us assume a punch was thrown. Self defense laws are very specific in that you can only use the amount of force necessary to eliminate the threat. Is this homeless a man a threat to anyone at 20 seconds into the video when he is flat on his stomach and getting punched in the face by another man while being choked? I don't think so. Is he a threat at 45 seconds in the video when he is still being choked and is surrounded by 3 additional witnesses? Again, I do not think so.

Issue #4: At some point, one must consider the intent of the Store Manager. By his own admission he claims he heard the homeless man say, "I can't breathe" and yet he maintained a choke hold on the man.

Sorry to say, but what may have started out as a Store Manager with good intentions, he crossed the line. At the very minimum this is manslaughter. He should be charged and this case should go to trial in a Court of Law.




posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 04:42 PM
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Hmm, I've been watching this thread, and I'm shocked people agreed that this guy deserved to die over a tube of toothpaste, but on the other hand we haven't had a controversial thread in a few days, I'm amazed it has generated this much debate so far.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by ultimatelizardman
 





You do not understand reality


I don't understand YOUR reality.



you are rabidly "defending"


Yeah, I'm foaming at the mouth as I type.




via dishonest means such as ad hominems and appeals to predjudice,


You're entitled to your opinion. I think my evaluation of your statements was spot on.




a world view which breeds pure evil and rampant danger by purposely ignoring, even aggravating, the catalysts of violent crime.


Talk about dishonest .....


Fear mongering .... much?



I'm done arguing with you.


Good, have a nice day.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by ultimatelizardman
Also, note that i never said they all deserve to die. However i do believe they deserve a harsh punishment on the first offense to deglamorize crime and deter future offenses.

In essence, yes, you did. Take a look at your previous statement below:



He deserved it, and merits no sympathy.

Not because of the toothpaste, but because of the fact that he intentionally and unnecessarily violated another's property.

You specifically said he deserved it due to his act of petty theft; if you're going to be philisophically consistent, that would apply to everyone who commits the same offense.

You then surmised that he was a violent drug addict who would probably kill & rob handicapped people. That petty thieves and drug addicts are sub-animals & akin to child molesters. Yet you have the mind to say "you are rabidly "defending", via dishonest means such as ad hominems and appeals to prejudice"?

You're the type of person I would NEVER want having a say in the legal/judicial system; your perception of evil, crime & serving out punishment seems as draconian as the Roman Catholic Church in its peak of power. Or Vlad Tepes perhaps. During his reign, he greatly reduced crime in Wallachia by torturing & executing petty thieves, gypsies, liars, promiscuous women (those not virgins on their wedding night), etc. The tradeoff for abolishing crime & "immorality" is instituting a tyrannical regime that commits the most heinous acts of torture against its citizens.

Reducing crime or opposition by the method of instilling terror is primitive; it becomes a monster of its own. A regressive monster devoid of empathy, tolerance, progression or reason. Not to mention prone to be exploited, resulting in the demise of those who are truly innocent.
edit on 18-1-2013 by Raelsatu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by Raelsatu
You specifically said he deserved it due to his act of petty theft; if you're going to be philisophically consistent, that would apply to everyone who commits the same offense.



To clarify: it was implied by the context that i meant he deserved to die at the hands of his victims, not that everyone who commits petty offenses should be executed (although they should always be severely punished).

Your statement about "instilling terror" being primitive is hypocritical, after all moral anarchy (which you appear to be a strong proponent of) is even more primitive as it dates back to the times where humans lacked the knowledge and intelligence to create rules ensuring stability.

This is the last time i post in this topic since the moral nihilists within it seem to be unable to control their need to slur me.

edit on 18-1-2013 by ultimatelizardman because: (no reason given)
edit on 18-1-2013 by ultimatelizardman because: (no reason given)
edit on 18-1-2013 by ultimatelizardman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by boncho

Originally posted by intelligenthoodlum33
This really sad. No one should die over toothpaste and I am surprised the store and the cops think this is okay.

Just goes to show the state of the world today. Human life is meaningless to so many.


Don't steal. If it were the police that did this I might have something to say. But it wasn't. It was a store manager. If a business owner accidentally kills someone trying to protect their property, oh well. Stop stealing...

I don't have much sympathy for thieves.




I myself have much sympathy for the nieveity of your opinion. One who steals and a theif are not always the same. To judge this man on such an accusation seems immature to me. Do you have children? If so be prepared to rethink what a theif is.

Considering the video, I see the deceased wanting to flee once the first bystander approaches and takes off his jacket. Self defence?



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by boncho

Originally posted by intelligenthoodlum33
This really sad. No one should die over toothpaste and I am surprised the store and the cops think this is okay.

Just goes to show the state of the world today. Human life is meaningless to so many.


Don't steal. If it were the police that did this I might have something to say. But it wasn't. It was a store manager. If a business owner accidentally kills someone trying to protect their property, oh well. Stop stealing...

I don't have much sympathy for thieves.




Stealing is not a crime that warrants capital punishment! Killing another human however, does. He is a murderer!



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by ultimatelizardman
He deserved it, and merits no sympathy.

Not because of the toothpaste, but because of the fact that he intentionally and unnecessarily violated another's property.
edit on 18-1-2013 by ultimatelizardman because: (no reason given)


He deserved to be killed for petty theft?

Your logic actually makes me pity you. You must be very lonely to be so angry.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 06:41 PM
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I would have given the guy a toothbrush to go along with it this is ridiculous.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 06:46 PM
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From what is seen on the video, I would say the manager was wrong to pursue this.

Sometimes, one must remind ones self that one is not the police, or LP. And it is only a tube of toothpaste.

Humans, being as they are, sometimes do the wrong thing from one minute to the next. Out of pride, or fear, or anger. These are to be controlled to avoid such events.

Probably manager was pushed too far. Tired of this crap, going to teach them a lesson. I saw a guy walk out of the store where Wifey works once with a huge 18 pack of beer, I think he stole it, not sure. In any case, unless he is going to hurt someone, let him have the beer, who cares. Most stores seem to have this policy.

Some stores have LP or loss prevention. LP watches people and follows people around and sometimes catches people, detains them and calls the cops. Or sometimes they even do it without the cops, for a minor I think they just send the parents a big bill and they have to pay.

It was an overreaction. But it is also a reminder to be polite, and not steal or break in to peoples homes or even shout at someone.

The lesson here, is you can not tell by looking at someone how dangerous they are. That guy killed with bare hands. Be nice, don't steal, bad guys beware...
edit on 18-1-2013 by kawika because: corectolated spel'n err
edit on 18-1-2013 by kawika because: corectolated spel'n err



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 06:48 PM
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This guy is just pretending he is a UFC fighter and practicing some moves he is a piece of crap.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 07:24 PM
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Tell me, how many people here are completely innocent of not stealing a single thing in your life. Anyone?

This guy may have been a petty thief but that does not give anyone the right to choke him to death in the street, this isn't the Medieval age.

I've worked for retailers before and the policy on theft is DO NOT CONFRONT AND DO NOT CHASE. Report the incident to management whereupon they will inform the authorities. Most of these characters are known in the area and picked up and charged within 15 minutes.

This is a gross over reaction and honestly I think the manager of the store should be charged with manslaughter AT THE LEAST.
edit on 18-1-2013 by Konduit because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc


Neither cold nor presumptuous: just a logical but jaded comment on our legal system and society as a whole. Quite often we see relatives come out of the wordwork after years of neglect whenever there is money to be made, be it the reading of the will or a potential legal suit. You see the mom of a gangbanger crying tears after her son is gunned down in a robbery but the rest of the story shows neglect and abuse during his childhood that leg him into the gangs.

I haven't made any comment so far on the killer or the victim, just a jaded look at our civil lawsuit system. THe question was asked as to why she was suing CVS and not the killer and the other people involved and the answer is,obviously, that CVS has the biggest pockets.



I hear ya Doc
but to answer your last query, the killer was an agent for CVS at the time of (and reasoning behind) the murder. Suing CVS is exactly where she should start and hopefully end. I hope she gets millions. Money is just another electronic IOU so....who cares?!

Not only is our society scary, but our system is deeply flawed. I realize this is life not utopia but if this is the best we can do as a species, we're in serious trouble. Animals get along better than we do and they're probably 100% more content too.

And the saddest thing?....I don't see anything getting any better. Quite the opposite.

We have 7-billion people expressing 7-billion different opinions. I don't see how we'll ever unite and get this planet in a civil fashion let alone, an empathetic environment.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 07:39 PM
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I must admit, that watching things like this, where they take place and how it happens. THEN watching everyone's comments, and noticing where they are, I am kind of glad to be where I am. I don't think much ever happens here at all, but when it does, people react logically and realistically. One time as I stopped in the store to get my coffee on the way to work, some lady was in there with her son. Well, the son apparently went over and made a slushy, than walked out behind his Ma. So instead of making a big deal, the clerk shrugs it off and says something like, well next time their in I'll hit up that lady for that one. And unlike toothpaste, slushy's are expensive. So then the lady beside me takes out a fiver and says not to worry, I got it. Quite a contrast.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 08:09 PM
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Humans make me sad.

That man was somebody, homeless or not. Nobody knows what his future held. He could have discovered a raging talent for art, and become the next Picasso. Or he could have stayed homeless. Now we will never know.

We also don't know his story, why he was homeless, why he stole the toothpaste.

Nobody deserves to die, over a tube of toothpaste.

I've been doing martial arts for over 20 years, and one thing I learned, never apply a strangle, unless you intend to kill. A properly applied strange means you have 2 or 3 seconds, 10 at most, till unconcious. A minute equals brain damage, if you're lucky, more usual is death.Strangle = cut off blood to brain, choke = cut off air.

That man intended to kill the homeless guy, no doubt in my mind. For the sake of a tube of toothpaste, that cost him nothing to begin with. Even then, it only cost the store owners, a few cents, at most.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 08:40 PM
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There are a lot of people on this earth and things ain't going so well. I think both men are responsible for that situation. Stealing 2 tubes of toothpaste is not the same as stealing food. He wasn't going to brush his teeth he was going to fence them and buy a crack rock. In some perfect utopian version of the future he may have gone on to get clean and be a wonderful member of society. That is a "what-if."
The likely scenario is that he would continue to commit crimes and smoke crack and eventually he'd kill himself or unfortunately maybe someone else. But the value of his life is not the issue here. Each of us are responsible for ourselves. If you don't want to be a victim then maybe you shouldn't go around making others the victim. We all have choices and some comes with risks.. when those bad choices lead to real consequences how come everybody comes out to exclaim how unfair it is?

The other guy is either a huge idiot or a sick murderer.. probably both. I say we cull that one from the lot too and society is two less losers away from meltdown.

Here is the problem with extreme liberalism re: the issues of crime. That man stole that toothpaste either not knowing he could die.. or feeling a sense of entitlement to his life that gave him the false sense of security cuz "you can't kill me." I get it.. the guy should NOT have killed him. And the grizzly bear didn't need to kill the hiker.
And that scientist totally didn't deserve what the lava did to him. If people have a reasonable expectation of death when they make certain choices they may not make them. If that homeless man knew he might die from taking that toothpaste then maybe he wouldn't have chosen to risk it.. maybe he'd still be alive.
If a person isn't ultimately responsible for themselves who the hell is? The rest of us? No thanks.
edit on 18-1-2013 by Rineocerous because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by Rineocerous
There are a lot of people on this earth and things ain't going so well. I think both men are responsible for that situation. Stealing 2 tubes of toothpaste is not the same as stealing food. He wasn't going to brush his teeth he was going to fence them and buy a crack rock. In some perfect utopian version of the future he may have gone on to get clean and be a wonderful member of society. That is a "what-if."
The likely scenario is that he would continue to commit crimes and smoke crack and eventually he'd kill himself for unfortunately maybe someone else. But the value of his life is not the issue here. Each of us are responsible for ourselves. If you don't want to be a victim then maybe you shouldn't go around making others the victim. We all have choices and some comes with risks.. when those bad choices lead to real consequences how come everybody comes out to exclaim how unfair it is?

The other guy is either a huge idiot or a sick murderer.. probably both. I say we cull that one from the lot too and society is two less losers away from meltdown.

Here is the problem with extreme liberalism re: the issues of crime. That man stole that toothpaste either not knowing he could die.. or feeling a sense of entitlement to his life that gave him the false sense of security cuz "you can't kill me." I get it.. the guy should NOT have killed him. And the grizzly bear didn't need to kill the hiker.
And that scientist totally didn't deserve what the lava did to him. If people have a reasonable expectation of death when they make certain choices they may not make them. If that homeless man knew he might die from taking that toothpaste then maybe he wouldn't have chosen to risk it.. maybe he'd still be alive.
If a person isn't ultimately responsible for themselves who the hell is? The rest of us? No thanks.
edit on 18-1-2013 by Rineocerous because: (no reason given)




Am I missing something? Did we read the same news article?...because you're way off base.

The guy most likely didn't feel a sense of entitlement. If that were the case then the cash register was to the left or right of him as he exited. He most likely felt a sense of desperation. And.....for you to elude that he was going to sell this ONE tube of toothpaste for drugs? Huh? Are you serious??? CVS now sells electronics you know.

And where the hell are you getting your crack reference from? Stereotype much do you?
You're just as bad as this manager--- where he too probably concocted this scenario in his head and instantly lost respect for this petty thief and choked him to death.

For all anyone knows, maybe his wife kicked him out days before with nothing but the clothes on his back. And he felt it was time to finally brush his teeth. You have to admit, that is an odd thing for a 'bum' to steal. So who are you or any of us to jump to any conclusion based on one fact which is: he was homeless? Period!

Unreal.

I know a lot of homeless people here (they sleep in the park one block from me at the Intracoastal and I talk to them in my passing.....) and you know what?....not one of them, that I know personally, is a drug addict. Not one! So....now what?
These men all have their own personal saga and most are extremely intelligent. So for you to jump to a conclusion makes you prejudice and incapable of patience, empathy, understanding and at minimum, giving a stranger the benefit of doubt. Shame on you.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 09:32 PM
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Yea well i got a violent felony for helping someone getting choked, 6 months in jail 3 years probatin and a strike. Now i have a violent felony on my record.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by eXia7

Originally posted by boncho

Originally posted by intelligenthoodlum33
This really sad. No one should die over toothpaste and I am surprised the store and the cops think this is okay.

Just goes to show the state of the world today. Human life is meaningless to so many.


Don't steal. If it were the police that did this I might have something to say. But it wasn't. It was a store manager. If a business owner accidentally kills someone trying to protect their property, oh well. Stop stealing...

I don't have much sympathy for thieves.



Well, the whole protect your property thing is nice and all, but honestly if you think about it, a tube of toothpaste is roughly 2$ to the consumer, I'm sure CVS paid maybe around .50 - .70 cents per tube. So honestly, is anybody's life worth a tube of discount toothpaste?


Apparently the man who stole the toothpaste thought it was if he put his freedom and life on the line for a two dollar tube of toothpaste. Hence why I don't steal and law abiding citizens do not steal.

If i had a store and they kept nickle and diming me for years with theft I would probably chase a person down too. Heck to them it is just two bucks but 2$ here , 3$ there and next thing you know I have you have to close down.

I worked at a grocery store where every weekend we would have people run in grab beer and walk out. I saw the guys walk out and didn't stop them and my manager ran off after them. It was a small mom and pop deal and he had been there since teh start. he got angry at me for not doing anything and started telling me how much money the store had lost the previous year due to that.

It affects the bottom line and what some parents take home. Is it worth a life??

Is it worth a life to defend what you have??

Is a worth a life to risk it by stealing from somoeonelse??

everyday we make decisions that determine whether we are safe or unsafe. There are many things we cannot control that could end our lives. There are many we can control.. theft is one.

The bottom line is this. You value your life?? do not put your life in the hands of someone else. By stealing or committing a crime you have no idea how the victim will act or how law enforcement will act. Why take the risk..

I just do not understand why he decided to steal toothpaste.. maybe he wanted to get picked up to be put in jail. he didn't look homeless to me at least based on the clothes.. Our hobos look like they have lived on the streets for years. this guy looked like a kid and not a 35yr old man.


Having said that..

The video did show several people beating on him along with the manager choking him. That is a little excessive.

I don't think that choke was in there all that good because his lights didn't go out sooner. Either that or the manager kept applying it and releasing it, or he didn't have a good grip till way later. I have been in a choke like that before and if it is applied correctly it will put you to sleep pretty quick.. more so if you struggle.

There were more than enough men around to hold him down in a safer manner.

I think the manger made a decision to endanger himself to a criminal charge. He had enough support where they could have held him down without a choke applied.

Initially it could have been self defense but there came a point where it was no longer self defense.

Not knowing the full story and based just on the film. Two bad decisions ended up in a death.

bad Decision number one was made by the victim by shoplifting.

bad Decision number two was the decision the manager made to continue the choke when there was no longer a need for it after he got help.


it is a sad shame.

edit on 18-1-2013 by votan because: (no reason given)
edit on 18-1-2013 by votan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by eXia7
 


Not only would I have bought the guy the toothpaste, but other necessities as well. On the way out, I'd give him a few dollars for a warm meal. Obviously this homeless person was trying to keep some level of hygiene. It's not like he was in some liquor store stealing liquor.

Poor guy, I hope this does get investigated.






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