I will agree using Ann was the thing that most cant stand. But, you cant say that these facts are not true and 100% supportable. You guys fighting this information are doing what Ann does, locking onto the one thing you can to make it lean racist and running with it. The fact is, demographics does not = race, it means just that a certain group, so it can mean poor like you are stating. And you are stating that most poor are minority, your saying this. Regardless what the cause is that most of the poor are minority. Yes white people are just as capable of doing bad things there is no doubt. But this particular OP , even though it was using a poor resource from the start with Ann, and he was not really able to state his point eloquently, is still a valid argument. These numbers do speak for themselves. Now we need to figure out how to fix it, education seems to be the best start. From there I dont personally have the answers, but I wish I did so we could make the US/world a better place. But sweeping gun laws against the law abiding majority is not the answer when 80% of gun crimes are committed with illegally acquired weapons. They need to actually enforce the current laws and maybe increase penalties for gun crimes before they go taking away the only means of protecting ones self from the criminals that will have guns no matter what laws are passed.

It's so easy to break it down to black and white isn't it.

Could it be that if the statistics were broken down to income class or education levels that you might find that lower income/education individuals have a higher rate of gun related crimes?

It might be a coincidence that scary black people happen to be more likely to be poor and uneducated huh? How many of these mass killings were done by a black guy?

go ahead and keep listening to coulter.....she needs the exposure.

It does appear that more blacks are involved in homicide statistically, does this make me racist if I say that I see that? I don't think so, but I know some here will say so.

Poverty does seem to be connected. If we talk about solutions, we talk about education. The culture in some pockets of black America seems pretty entrenched. As a white woman, it is not like I can go into their neighborhoods and educate them or tell them how to act, nor do I feel it is my job or right to do so. They will respect those from their own community any day over someone like me. The problem lies in where to get their own community leaders to step in and attend to their communities. The elephant in the room is the dissolving family unit. Have you checked the black marriage rates lately? My experience with younger blacks who live in poverty is that a large percentage have no plans to ever marry. They are still having children, though, and the majority of these children don't have a live at home dad to help raise them, and they don't have the resources to do it without help. That is a problem, and a big one.

I think that the point about admitting a problem is valid, but the real problem lies in how to go about bringing back the importance of family to the black community. You can restrict guns all you want, but it will have no effect on this problem. I think it is tragic, and I wish there was a good solution. Parts of the culture need to change.

Originally posted by Kali74
And you guys wonder why you're lumped as racists? If it walks like a duck...

How about looking at socioeconomic factors as opposed to skin color? Let's see how poor whites living in 'ghettos' fair against the white populace used to compare against Belgium crime rate hmm?

Pigs.

Who is "you guys"? That dumba$$ neo-con woman doesn't speak for me.

What racists like the OP don't realise is that the driving force is poverty, not race. You see this in places without black populations, where the crime still happens, where the murder still happens. Otherwise, your Eastern European nations would be free of murder and gun crime.

There is nothing impressive or telling in the fact that by taking out the non-white population of America(the bulk of which are working class) that suddenly rates of crime and gun crime drop. Well duh. Everybody knows black people are more likely to commit crime, that's not a news flash, it's not even controversial, it's readily accepted and the reasons are well understood. It's only controversial when racists bring it to the table and try to hide and deny context, using it only to prop up their racist viewpoints.

The problem is the right-wing hacks like Coulter don't actually want to address this. They don't want to hear that people are a product of their environment, they don't want to hear that the capitalist system they praise is the main cause of black poverty and black crime, that would break their world view in half. These people are off in some fantasy land where a child raised in the slums only has himself to blame if he doesn't achieve what some upper class yuppy achieves. They'd rather blame, blame, blame the victims of their oppressive system. Damn these non-white people with no money and a piss-poor education, how shameful that they're more likely to turn to crime. As if, you know, it's all in the genes, poverty doesn't factor into crime at all

But the capitalists actually believe that their system works, that it's equal and everyone has equal opportunity in life, and when it doesn't work like the fairytales they've created in their head, and it never does, they simply can't accept their system is a failure, they have to find scapegoats. So then it's the victims of the system who are the PROBLEM with the system. They've got it all figured out. Blame the people you've forced into poverty for creating the poverty and crime, by way of having darker skin.

Who would have known that the middle and upper class populations of America and Belgium have similar crime rates!? Who would have known that middle class communities are largely free of crime? Who would have known this elusive fact but Coulter and Superhans?

I think Coulter forgot to tell you that the reason gun crime taken as a WHOLE in Belgium is so much lower than America is exactly because of the liberalism she's bagging. God damn Belgian liberals, lowering poverty and giving people an education, limiting gun crime with their education and social systems, actually giving a # about poor people - how very dare they!

Until the yanks wake up from their day dream capitalist fantasy, there will continue to be crime committed mainly by poor people and mainly by non-whites by way of that fact. You can blame non-whites and immigrants until you're blue in the face, we all know the true source of crime is poverty, and the true source of poverty is the out-of-control hyper-capitalism that Americans love.

Originally posted by Superhans

Originally posted by iSHRED
While it may be true that minorities are involved in more cases of gun violence, it's still a very small percentage of total minorities.

Look up the prison population by race, that is all im going to say about that one.

Are you sure Whites aren't the minority now in days?

Originally posted by GrandStrategy

I think Coulter forgot to tell you that the reason gun crime taken as a WHOLE in Belgium is so much lower than America is exactly because of the liberalism she's bagging. God damn Belgian liberals, lowering poverty and giving people an education, limiting gun crime with their education and social systems, actually giving a # about poor people - how very dare they!

Excellent point!!!

TPTB turning everyone against each other, how original. it's not enough they're pitting gun advocates against anti-gun people now they're throwing in race. things are out of control. this is turning into a bad "straight to video" action movie.

Originally posted by Anundeniabletruth
I am going to play the "education card" here. In America, at least the one I live in, the "majority" of "crimes" are committed by uneducated individuals, be they white, black, or other. Just go to any low income neighborhood and compare it to an "average middle class" neighborhood. Which one most often has the higher crime rate? Well unless you happen to be living under a rock or just plain blinded by stupidity, you're gonna say the low income neighborhood because that's the very well known and obvious answer. Well educated black people do not commit crimes very often, certainly no more than well educated white people, so any racists claims instantly lose any imagined credibility. However, poorly educated people, both black and white seem to commit crimes much more often. Plus the majority of jail sentences towards both white and black people are for simple possession of that very "drug" that my own brother and many friends have been busted for on many occasions.

edit on 17-1-2013 by Anundeniabletruth because: (no reason given)

We all commit crimes. It's just that the well educated people commit different crimes. Poor people steal from each other. Intelligent people steal from everyone, they give it a name, and they make it legal. Oh and they assassinate other intelligent people who have hope in a different world.

Prison population just isn't a good statistic to use. The numbers are skewed to begin with. Similar crimes warrant different punishments based on race and location. Its relevant only to show the racism, it doesn't represent who is more criminal minded.

As others pointed out white collar crimes hurt far more than the blue collar ones. I'd gladly defraud you out of 100 million dollars if I knew I'd be punished with a fine of 5 million or a couple years at club fed, rather than rob you in a corner store and get 10 or 20 years for a couple hundred dollars.

Stating the statistical fact that more minorities are in prison for crime isn't racist. However, using that statistic without examination of cause as a starting point for uneducated statements IS racist, because you are then making unqualified statements based on Race.

Racism is prevalent within the legal system, educational system, and corporate America and it is very easy to see. Low income = less education. Less education = less options to support yourself. That leads to crime. The majority of a population will turn to crime when it is not possible to support ones self within the system of a society. So, you limit a certain group's access to education and opportunity, you get a lot of criminals from that group.

All people have a survival instinct and we all do what it takes to survive. I'm not saying that criminals shouldn't be punished, but we won't see a reduction in crime and prison population until people realize why things are the way they are.

- Dredge

It can't just be down to poverty, surely?

Otherwise, any poor area - regardless of ethnic makeup - would have the same stats.

What about poor white areas?

Poor Asian areas?

Poor Mexican areas?

Poor Arabic areas?

Do Asians, Mexicans, and Arabs suffer less than blacks from poverty and discrimination?

Originally posted by Dredge However, using that statistic without examination of cause as a starting point for uneducated statements IS racist, because you are then making unqualified statements based on Race.

Hear! Hear! Well -stated, and quite Spot On, IMO.

if you want to start comparing, you have to do apples to apples or similar, you simply cannot use a virtual cornacopia of garden-variety fruits and vegetables and anticipate the results being un-biased or even accurate, for that matter. (!)

I love how the OP tries to justify being racist by saying "I'm not racist, you just think I am". Lmao. Look guy, when you blame a certain trend on someone's race, that's being racist. Your whole point here is:

"because they're black"

That pretty much sums up your thread, and I'm not trying to force this definition onto what you wrote. It's racist, and I'm surprised you can even manage to argue that it's not.

Look up the prison population by race, that is all im going to say about that one.

Lovely, shows how much you know about discrimination in average modern day li- *cough* *cough* the prison system.

Originally posted by Superhans

Originally posted by iSHRED
While it may be true that minorities are involved in more cases of gun violence, it's still a very small percentage of total minorities.

Look up the prison population by race, that is all im going to say about that one.

While I do agree with the comments made...

Understand that the prison system is all about making money. The more people locked up the more money the owners of the prions make. Its not a fluke, the system was designed this way. It would seem that America and EU has "problems" with minority's. But whats causing those problems? Who's manipulating them?