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posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by BlueMule
 


Wow, that was quite an intelligent and well put together reply.


I personally liked this part: "Great vigilance must be maintained at all times when dealing in areas about which we do not have great understanding."




posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 



I suppose atheists have beaten this challenge to death, but it's still thee number one absolute proof we need to see, and that is, to see an amputated limb grow back.

I saw a lot in my years as a bible thumper, but that is certainly not among the items on the list. That would have been a sight to behold.
But it still wouldn't convince me of a God now. I've seen and learned too much about what our minds can do given the right circumstances. We really are amazing creatures.

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” Henry Ford.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan

I like to think of God among other things as the ultimate therapist who can heal the mind, heart and soul of a person, even with the slightest touch of the spirit.


Charles Manson comes to mind. Let me save you some time by saying, I know, I know, people have to ask for this healing, right? But, what of those that are so mentally over the edge that they can't ask for help?




Life itself right here and now - although most people can't see it!



I have to meet you halfway on this, NAM. How a tiny seed can contain the information on how to build a giant Red Wood tree should count as a miracle. How a sperm and egg can produce a living thing with so many internal organs functioning in harmony with each other is totally mind-blowing. But this still isn't evidence of a perfect god. Can we count it as a miracle if an intelligent (though less-than-perfect) alien race seeded this planet?



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 01:06 AM
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My wife had kidney stones and passing blood in her urine, and a bad gallbladder and endomitriosis. She was told it'd be very difficult for her to have children due to the scarring on her uterus. Me a deacon and our preacher prayed over her in the preachers office and when she went to the doctors to take a look, all of it was gone. Where the doctor was ready to do emergency surgery to remove her gallbladder on friday, the following monday nothing showed on any of the tests. She is now pregnant with our first child too. Jesus didn't just take care of what i asked, he took care of everything she was having problems with. Even the kidney stones were gone. Her doctor was at a loss to explain it other than to say it was a miracle. Even doctors know miracles when they see them.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by BlueMule
 


Wow, that was quite an intelligent and well put together reply.


I personally liked this part: "Great vigilance must be maintained at all times when dealing in areas about which we do not have great understanding."


Yes I like that too.

But part of the problem is, debunkers think they do have great understanding... they think it's just gullibility, wishful thinking, smoke n' mirrors, and so forth. 'Nothing to see here, move along.'

Nope there is more to it than that. There is something to see. We just don't have great understanding of it. We have weak understanding. There is a baby to see in the mirky bathwater, and myopic debunkers are tossing it out.

edit on 18-1-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by BlueMule
 


I know this may make me sound crazy, but this is very close to what the bible actually says. I realize the common Christian interpretation is nowhere close to this.

Here are just a couple of concepts that are in the bible that you may not know exist there. There is only one God the father of all men, and all men are justified by faith. For the sinner the path to salvation can only be found in Grace, forgiveness of your sin so that you may start a new with God.

The bible then becomes a guide book for those who are seeking but can't find what is already in them. I had to be shown the path; it is not something I could come to by simply looking inward. Maybe that is a result of the fast paced, now, world we live in, I don’t really know.

For the man who is not born blind, who can see love, feel love and give love, they will be like the great teachers, Buddha, Gandhi and so on. These men found God by earnestly searching the spirit and were rewarded with knowledge or "enlightenment". These men are truly sons of Abraham. For they are able to overcome by looking inward.


Romans 14
1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...



If you read this passage with the above understanding. Then you should see we should not argue over are faith, because this divides us. Love is truth, anyone who disagrees, is really in the darkness. Let us rejoice that we may all know love. Jesus came to save the sinner, give the sinner guidance so that he may see past the lies and overcome. If Christians would just do the things he said. Turn the other cheek, serve one another, they might see this love.

Any man that searches for God and comes to the conclusion that the underlying structure of all creation is love than they have found the one God. You can know that a man has not found the one God if he does not have this love. Christians have been taught to wait for a "second coming", when what they need to be doing is living righteously so that they can receive knowledge or "enlightenment" today.



Genesis 4 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”


The bible says from the very beginning that our challenge is to overcome sin. God does not change, from the beginning he has been teaching us how to overcome sin, it has always been his desire that we become like him.

Christians have been told if they believe in Jesus they will be saved when the physically body dies. How can they become free from sin today, if their religion tells them they cannot?

The bible is a guide for the blind, but right now the teachers are blind. The blind cannot lead the blind.

The bible says how can they hear our message unless someone teaches them, How can anyone teach unless they are sent? You will know the man sent by God because he will demonstrate the characteristics of Christ.

When you see the man, or men whose faith allows them to walk like Christ, then you will know the end is near.

The bible was written for the one searching and the one who is found. Who do you believe will understand it's true meaning? Is it the enlightened man who has been made Holy by the word, "love" or the man who is still teaching judgment and separation?

Therefore, if the bible is the word of God we can know that only the one who walks like Christ has received the truth.


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edit on 18-1-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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When my wife was pregnant with our third she had blood work done and had been diagnosed with a child with spina bifida or twins and we new didn't have twins. My wife was the saddest and cried for so long that I couldn't help but feel for her and her pain. I told her we will get by and it's gonna be hard but you will learn to raise this child even if it has this disability and I was not much of believer yet but I got down on my knees and asked God to ease her pain and heal what ever sickness my baby had and I was crying when I prayed. The next day we had a ultra scan and the spine was intact and my wife was so scarred I said have faith and we went in and came out with smiles and laughter and her new blood tests came back normal. That's when I began to see that prayers work and I began my journey to no more about God and my faith. The world is filled with things you can't see because you limit yourself and you will find yourself lost in world with a limited view of whats really out in front of you.
edit on 18-1-2013 by WarriorOfLight96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


That all sounds fuzzy, warm and ultra groovy, but the simple fact is, evil, disharmony and chaos exist and as long as they do, mankind will continue to have a physical inclination towards it. It is the nature of our dimension, and it is no respecter of persons.
All whom exist in this dimension will encounter their temptations and will either work through them in humility- gaining strength, wisdom, understanding and victory, or will fall into them- and atrophy their spirit, be deceived, follow lies and live as slaves. Such an existence only made bearable to them because of their own self-oblivion towards it. Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall and, unfortunately, not only is pride the number one temptation among all men, but also the most subtly deceitful.
What man can point to himself and accuse himself of wrongdoing when he perceives his intentions as good? What man has the strength to seek God and sincerely ask for Him to search his heart and mind and point out all flaws, even those we are most ignorant of? And especially those in which we are most critical of others? And then humble himself to accept that truth and face it?
Only the man who has enough integrity of character to suffer such self-examination, come to terms with it with an honest heart, then rise above it.
No matter how enlightened someone appears or how high of a standard they appear to maintain, unless it is truly matched by the heart, it is vanity. And only God can see into the depths of and weigh the true intentions of the heart.
The truth is that only Christ can walk like Christ. All we can do is strive towards His ultimate standard of perfection.

Although I die to myself daily in the effort to strive toward that standard, I am no saint and I'm certainly no apostle or prophet, but at this point in my personal effort I do feel comfortable in my ability to discern Truth. It's not something that can really be articulated or explained, but I "know" it when I see it, and it far exceeds intuition.
I have also gained the ability to discern anti-Truths, and when encountered, I sense a reflexive sort of startle within my "self". Also difficult to articulate, but best explained as some sort of primal disturbance.
I think you are well aware of the mis-truths you spoke in your post.

Christ advised that many would come in His name. Thus, Christ Himself stated that there would be many who would walk like Him and seemingly demonstrate His characteristics.
Therefore, the only way to tell them apart is by their fruit. For those who choose to follow Christ, the Bible is the only way to accomplish that caliber of discernment.

We are told that His Word is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, even able to divide between soul and spirit, bone and marrow.
Those without understanding would then say, "So the words, they jump right off the page, do they? Dance a little jig, tip their hat and sing kumbayah and all that?" And that is their prerogative to do so.
But, those who can recognize Truth see through that ignorant, misguided smugness, and feel only compassion and hope for their brethren.
Those without understanding would likely perceive that compassion as pity and feel only indigence and contempt.
However, those with understanding would recognize that compassion as someone's genuine effort towards unconditional love. Not the false, counterfeit love based on the seduction of "enlightenment" and the subtle deception of pride. But the genuine love of the Creator, based on truly loving others as you would yourself.

Christ Himself confirmed that the Bible is trustworthy. Therefore, you either believe what is needed for someone to be a successful follower of Christ is contained within those pages, or you don't, thus rendering Him a liar. Or, don't believe in Him at all, rendering any consideration of such matters utterly moot and subject to mindless, pontificating and circular debate over each jot and tittle.

The debate over the Bible comes down to believing it, or not. It has nothing to do with simple mindedness, and it most certainly is not for the blind. The Bible claims, for all intents and purposes, to be inspired wisdom, understanding and instruction from God. Christ Himself testifies to this and to the validity of the apostolic work done by His own disciples. If someone claims to practice the Christian faith then they must necessarily believe that the Bible is a trustworthy manual. And that belief must necessarily be based on an all-or-nothing principle. There can be no picking and choosing what to follow and not follow, lest that person's faith then become based on the flawed standard of man, thus becoming their own personalized version of faith, in which we already have so many of today.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by stupid girl

The truth is that only Christ can walk like Christ. All we can do is strive towards His ultimate standard of perfection.


Well... God is pouring his spirit out onto the Earth.

I can guarantee this truth: Those who believe in me will do the things that I am doing. They will do even greater things because I am going to the Father. -John 14:12



edit on 18-1-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by BlueMule
 





But part of the problem is, debunkers think they do have great understanding...


That's not quite right. Debunkers have ZERO understanding of the mystical gobbledy-gook. What they are claiming is that there are mountains of logic and reasoning against gods and magic and demons and spirits... And, the only thing that believers have is their faith. That's it.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by BlueMule
 





But part of the problem is, debunkers think they do have great understanding...


That's not quite right. Debunkers have ZERO understanding of the mystical gobbledy-gook. What they are claiming is that there are mountains of logic and reasoning against gods and magic and demons and spirits... And, the only thing that believers have is their faith. That's it.


But in order to claim that logic is against God (and by extension miracles) one has to presume that one has great understanding of God (and by extension miracles).

edit on 18-1-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by stupid girl
 


You believe that Christ came to start the religion called Christianity. And that somehow anyone who is not what you are is condemned. The other religions believe this too.

I believe Christ came to teach the Jews the one thing that religion cannot teach.

We are all one. If the Jews go to war with the Muslims do you escape? NO
If anyone starts WW3 do you get a free pass because you believe Jesus is the son of God? NO
We are all one body. There is one God and one truth. Why do you need to be right?

The world is going to be destroyed by people who want to be right.

Jesus didn't say go around being right. He said go around being righteous. And when they see the righteousness that comes from God than they will know that your God is real.

Abraham did not have the scripture that you claim I must believe in order to find God. According to you it would be impossible for Abraham to be righteous. The bible clearly states that Abraham was righteous by faith. How did he find his faith since you say it can only be found in one place?

The bible is not where the truth comes from, although the truth is found within its pages. The truth comes from within because that is where your love comes from.

The bible says that all men will come to the father through Christ. It does not say that all men will come to God through the bible or religion. If Christ has taught Buddha, Gahndi, or anyone else the love that comes from God, through the light of the world, who are you to judge his servant?

This is the unity that your Christ was teaching. If you don't believe me believe them.


There will be utter peace in the world. After the King Messiah has been victorious, not a single nation will dare consider waging war, and no nation will rule over any other. People won't even study warfare or battle tactics anymore. And no one will have any reason to fear anyone else, ever again. There will be no racism or other forms of oppression, ever again.

The nations will send their emissaries to the King Messiah, and the King Messiah will teach the world how to live in peace, and how to want to live in peace. Then, everyone in the world will enjoy eternal peace, for as long as this world will last. The great Rabbi, Rav Shlomoh Freifeld, of blessed memory, said in a talk he once gave that I attended that the Messiah will be a great teacher.

Good things will be easily available to everyone. When the Messianic Era comes, there will be no poverty, no war, no hardships, no reason for jealousy or competition, and no boredom. Everything anyone needs will be easily and quickly available, so that good things will seem to grow on trees.

Our primary concern will be in growing more and more spiritual, and we will all enjoy doing this.


The Jews believe that there are two possible outcomes. This or the war of Gog and Magog.

I am man who has been shown the truth by God. Although I do believe in many ways the father has helped me overcome this world, I would never consider myself righteous. So with what I have been given I have a choice. Sit around and wait, hoping to be saved, Or I can act.

Try to understand what I am saying. I am not trying to be right; I am trying to love you no matter what. And I am trying to teach you to do the same.
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edit on 18-1-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by stupid girl
 


Let me ask you these questions.

Do you always turn the other cheek?
Do you always listen to your husband and allow him to be the final word of authority, if your married?
Do you take care of widows and orphans?

These are quite easy commands to follow. Do you really have faith in him? Have you submitted every addiction to him?

I am a man who is telling you that Christ has set me free from sin. You are here to deny that and say that it is not possible.

Why do you continue to want to believe the lie that you cannot be like Christ? Break free from the lie, Have faith to do what he said, always. He will show the way and you will be free from sin.



Genesis 4:6-7 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”


From the beginning he has commanded us to do what is right. To overcome our sin. For anyone who cannot find Christ inside he came so that we may know him. His command is still the same. He sent his son to reconcile us to him so that we may overcome our sin like he has.

John 21:22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

If Jesus revealed himself to men like Buddah and Gahndi apart from Christianity, what is that to you?
You are called to follow him.

The single biggest difference is this. You have made Christ the Christian lord. I have allowed Christ to be what he says, the savior of all men, especially believers.
edit on 18-1-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by jiggerj
 



I suppose atheists have beaten this challenge to death, but it's still thee number one absolute proof we need to see, and that is, to see an amputated limb grow back.

I saw a lot in my years as a bible thumper, but that is certainly not among the items on the list. That would have been a sight to behold.
But it still wouldn't convince me of a God now. I've seen and learned too much about what our minds can do given the right circumstances. We really are amazing creatures.

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” Henry Ford.


Hey Sugar,

You are one of a very few people I truly find fascinating on this site, for one particular reason or another, and as I've stated before, I always (....mostly, with rare exception
..... ) enjoy your posts when I come across them in a thread in which we are mutually participating.
There are several reasons for this personal fascination, only one of which I will address here, (albeit reluctantly as I can't realistically consider it to be related to the topic of Jigg's thread and I already feel like I'm hijacking it, therefore I will keep it brief), which is the fact that you are an impetus for my own self-examination and thus its resulting inevitable cross-examination of my own faith. It is my personal belief that for someone's faith to truly hold value, it must be challenged and not be found wanting. Although faith is the belief in something that cannot be proved with material evidence, for that faith to honestly be considered of any genuine integrity, I think it should stand up to personal scrutiny lest the individual claiming it simply be deceiving their self and also doing a great injustice to those who actually do exercise their faith and it emerge unscathed.

Having said all that, I would like to say that I absolutely agree that we are amazing creatures. Unfortunately, we are also obviously flawed. Seeing the potential that mankind has for harmony with his brethren and his surroundings, surely it could be reasoned that for that potential to exist and be perceived there must be a template of perfection in which we were based upon.

And although amazing and seemingly possessed of ultimate potential, men are not gods, despite their best efforts in assuming and acting out otherwise. Which can only result in their inevitable self-destruction as we bear witness to today and the repeat of such over the known history of mankind.
Surely there is more? Surely the ball did not begin to roll itself? What made the ball? Perhaps the ball always was, which is not really something that human beings are capable of truly comprehending with their finite minds. Even so, by that rationale, who planned its path? Even more so, why is there a path? Even more than that, why does the ball even exist at all?

It is an inarguable fact that we are here. We are aware and we exist. What was the impetus behind animal ignorance becoming sentient awareness? And why is there even a difference among the two? And where exactly does that delineation lie?

Why do we have a moon? According to man's infinite knowledge and understanding about the universe that he did not create, nor was he even consulted on the matter, the moon should not be there, yet it is. It's too old, it's too lightweight, it's too big, yet it is perfectly proportioned to obscure the sun and set on the same horizon as it but at opposite solstices, both of which can only be appreciated from our perspective on Earth.
We cannot explain why it is there but without it, life on this planet would not be possible.

Bees- they should not fly but yet they do. According to the understanding of men their design is flawed for flight, and although men have been here for many thousands of years, it has only been within the last few years that we have begun to understand why the little bitty bee does not conform to our vast understanding of how things should work.

I would like to conclude by sharing that although I have actually had 2 experiences in my life in which I would term as inexplicable, non-coincidental miracles, both of which being of a far more personally intimate nature than what I am comfortable discussing on a public internet conspiracy website, I believe that all of creation and the obvious fact that it exists and we are even here is the greatest miracle of all.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


I would like to respond, in kind, to both of your replies. However, I do not feel that this thread is the conduit to do so, as what we are respectfully sharing and working out with each other has nothing to do with the topic of miracles, but of understanding and faith.
Although the best solution would seem to be as private messages to each other, this is, after all, a public discussion forum website and I think our discussion may perhaps be of enough interest to enough people to warrant further public exchange. However, I simply don't have the energy at this point in my day to use my brain in the attempt to suggest any sort of resolution to this dilemma.

I is tired.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by BlueMule
 





one has to presume that one has great understanding of God (and by extension miracles)


Who (or whom, I never get those words right) has even a little insight of god, never mind a great understanding? Ask ten believers and they'll all give you different (great) understandings of god. And, isn't this a problem in and of itself? If there is a god, wouldn't you think he'd want everyone to at least grasp what He's all about?



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
My wife had kidney stones and passing blood in her urine, and a bad gallbladder and endomitriosis. She was told it'd be very difficult for her to have children due to the scarring on her uterus. Me a deacon and our preacher prayed over her in the preachers office and when she went to the doctors to take a look, all of it was gone. Where the doctor was ready to do emergency surgery to remove her gallbladder on friday, the following monday nothing showed on any of the tests. She is now pregnant with our first child too. Jesus didn't just take care of what i asked, he took care of everything she was having problems with. Even the kidney stones were gone. Her doctor was at a loss to explain it other than to say it was a miracle. Even doctors know miracles when they see them.


WHAT???!!? You little turd!
No email, no Facebook, just had to find this out on ATS, did I?
Seriously? I am so mad at you right now.....



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by stupid girl
 

I truly appreciate the kind words. No doubt, I've always had a flare for being a bit off center of everyone else.
Some folks find that interesting, or amusing, and some find it infuriating. As I've said before, it takes me twice as long to type a post than the average person, due to a translation problem from brain to fingers at times, but participating as a member has helped that much in the past few years. So I appreciate every member here in ways they have no idea of.

I may be an atheist/agnostic now, but there is one thing that has stuck with me from my Christian years. No matter who you are, or what your background is, faith is a part of your life. It is inescapable. It's the way we humans are wired. We will have faith in something or someone. The only question is, whether that faith is justified. Which I suppose is the reason for testing it.

We are amazing creatures to the effect that we are capable of so much more than our "social evolution" has allowed us to explore and exhibit. We are so much more than the sum of our parts. Humans have an incredible capacity for extremes, and yet, an ability to find balance when we set our hearts to it. Are we gods? I suppose that depends on any given individuals perception of what a god, or the God is. It all comes down to definition.

I have no problem leaving room for the idea of their being a designer(s) involved in our conception. Abiogenesis just doesn't fit for me. At least not by itself. What I have a problem with, is any one, or group of us thinking we have all the answers. IMHO, none of us does. Though I also know each of us must be freely allowed to believe as we will. We may debate it hot and heavy here at times, but at the end of the day, I must support others rights to have faith where they believe it is justified.



I believe that all of creation and the obvious fact that it exists and we are even here is the greatest miracle of all.

On this, we can certainly agree. I too, find our existence, including the floating rock we live on, miraculous to say the least.

We now return you to your originally scheduled thread, and beg the OP's forgiveness for getting slightly off-topic. We did mention miracles though, Jigger.
edit on 1/18/2013 by Klassified because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by BlueMule
 





one has to presume that one has great understanding of God (and by extension miracles)


Who (or whom, I never get those words right) has even a little insight of god, never mind a great understanding? Ask ten believers and they'll all give you different (great) understandings of god. And, isn't this a problem in and of itself? If there is a god, wouldn't you think he'd want everyone to at least grasp what He's all about?


Hence the quote I provided earlier by Joseph Campbell. The way to gain an understanding of God is through comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism. That's the way to gain a panoramic cross-cultural view... a wide view that transcends the dogma of local, exoteric layers of religion.

Spend a decade studying the scholarly comparative fields and having mystical / paranormal experiences as I have, and yes you will get a little insight of God.


edit on 18-1-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by BlueMule
 

You should do a thread on this BlueMule. I for one, would be very interested in reading it, and participating.





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