How many Aborted Humans End up Making Profit for Companies?

Originally posted by OrionsWitness
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

I was not aborted , neither were you.

Think hard about that.

edit on 16-1-2013 by OrionsWitness because: compehension

edit on 16-1-2013 by OrionsWitness because: (no reason given)

And this has what connection to this topic?

No one likes the idea of abortion so if those of you who are so morally shaken by it could just help get contraception such as the Morning After Pill and Plan B made easily available to all females then this would DRASTICALLY lower the number of abortions.

If you are so intractable and against this very simple solution then you yourself are aiding in continuing the practice of Abortion.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Originally posted by OrionsWitness
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

I was not aborted , neither were you.

Think hard about that.

edit on 16-1-2013 by OrionsWitness because: compehension

edit on 16-1-2013 by OrionsWitness because: (no reason given)

And this has what connection to this topic?

No one likes the idea of abortion so if those of you who are so morally shaken by it could just help get contraception such as the Morning After Pill and Plan B made easily available to all females then this would DRASTICALLY lower the number of abortions.

If you are so intractable and against this very simple solution then you yourself are aiding in continuing the practice of Abortion.

Split Infinity

See how far we have evolved.

You deny the truth, because perhaps of ignorance.

Life is CREATED , by the UNION of MAN and WOMAN..
Meditate on this.
Its not about sperm and eggs alone , isolated, but the wilful union.

Millions of wilful unions result in conception of souls into wombs.

The evil one..wants you to think this conception is just cells forming.

Just think and research, just think, think...not just take a stance.

You were conceived, you are here, now, on ATS.
And you want to deny?

reply to post by OrionsWitness


It would be a lot more helpful if you had ANYTHING constructive to say.

The extent of your points of debate of this issue have been limited to villifying women who are unfortunate enough to have to go through the Hell of choosing an abortion.

You have also villified anyone who agrees that abortions should remain legal or those who have put forth ideas of reducing the number of abortion like I have by making it easy for a female to take a simple pill the next day that will prevent a fertilized egg from implanting itself in the uterine wall.

This simple taking of a pill and the ability for females to easily obtain it will dramatically lower the number of abortions something I know you desire. Why is it you have not spoken about this in the debate or perhaps brought up a VIABLE IDEA that could also work to lower the number of abortions?

You know what I see? I see someone who is more than quick to condemn and villify but lacks anything in the way of compasion and a desire to help women find another way that works.

It is unfortunate that you are so far away from the GOD and teaching of related to that GOD as you are doing everything against the concepts of Christianity as well as all Monotheistic Religions.

I feel sorry for you because you really have no understanding of what you seem to hold dear.

That is a greater tragedy than anything I can think of.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity



You can accuse anyone , i noticed you supplied no quotes of mine, to back up your lies.

I have lived life and know no human is without flaw or mistake.
That only by understanding and acceptance can love exist.

You are perverting all that is said by me and others, pwerhaps in your quest for the continuation of abortion, by legal consent , numbering the millions per year.

Good on you..is this what you want God to say to you?

That he agrees that , some should have life , whilst others should not?

That he smiles on your post?

You tell me, you search your heart and soul.
Tell the world , God , love wants...the death of the unborn , but conceived by the miilions.

That he wants a debate about it.

That he wants perhaps all of woman kind to abort 100% of conceptions.

Yeah think on that , 100% abortions.

No one is saying foir health reasons or rape reasoins there isn't an argument.

But approx 95% of abortions , are for economic reasons.

That is the evil, that cannot be denied.

I would rather be poor, and live , than dead.

Disagree?

Suicides are outnumbered by abortions by a fairly large ratio..

reply to post by Phage

Dear Phage,

Thank you for inspiring me to look more into this issue. I see that my sources and approach were largely in error, my scientific ignorance is profound.

What I have learned, however, is that this isn't about stem cells at all. We're looking at the wrong thing. I've found a lot in the area of fetal tissue work which is, perhaps more disturbing than the stem cell false trail I was following. I've only done a little looking, and it's late, I may come back to it in a few hours.

But, first, to briefly respond to your points. I have not expressed any opinions about abortion in this thread, they are not relevant to the OP. And, again, this is not about fetal cells but, as the headline states, aborted humans.

Here's a catalog listing:

MVP Human Normal Fetal Tissue Total RNA

MVP RNA is application-ready RNA available in small economical pack sizes. Extensive and rigorous quality control including many application specific assays provides assurance that the RNA is intact, full-length and nearly DNA-free.

Extensive quality control ensures high-quality, pure RNA
Eliminates tedious, time consuming RNA isolation procedures
Application ready for real time RT-PCR, miRNA detection and Northern blot analysisApplication ready for real time RT-PCR, miRNA detection and Northern blot analysis
Small, economically priced and convenient 25 µg pack sizes
Matched sets of normal and diseased tissue from the same donor
Well-documented donor, tissue pathology information

Total RNA, Fetal Brain, Human, 25 µg

540157

25 µg

$63.00

Genomics.Agilent
And here's an interesting book:

Human Fetal Tissue Transplantation is a timely publication that provides details of many aspects of the potential use of fetal tissues for therapeutic applications. As many tissues are wasted on a daily basis it appropriate to raise discussion on how to maximize access to discard tissue and at the same time engage in discussion of the ethics associated with fetal tissue procurement and clinical use.

I assure you, I have just scratched the surface.
www.springer.com...
Thanks again for your inspiration. It looks like the OP may very well have been right. (Still not sure about the billions, but I'd bet a dime that it's at least millions.)

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by OrionsWitness


Your statement does not take into account the realities.

Fact...if a Female has intercourse either willfully or by Rape and is not able to easily obtain the Morning After Pill or Plan B the next day...and she becomes pregnant...and she does not want the child...she will abort it.

Fact...if a female was able to get these Next Day use Contraceptive Pills she would not get pregnant.

Fact...The availability of these pills directly correlates with the number of abortions that will be done.

Fact...By your inability to endorse the easy availability of Plan B and Morning After...YOU are partially responsible for the greater number of abortions that would ahve been MUCH less had you and those who believe as you do were to back such contraception.

These are all listed FACTS of LOGIC.

Split Infinity

reply to post by charles1952


Chuck...let me ask you...what is more important?

Is it more important to spend much time villifying and protesting this use of tissue?

Or is it more important to make certain that a Female has easily available to her a Pill that once taken the next day after intercourse this pill will not allow the fertilized egg to implant itself thus no pregnancy an NO ABORTION?

What is more important and what should people spend their time on?

Split Infinity

When the soul has left the body (or in case of abortion, there was no soul to begin with), why shouldnt we utilise the empty vessel, if it can help other people? We consider it honorable to donate organs of the dead or to give your body for science. Why shouldnt the same apply to abortions? I dont see the issue here.

Originally posted by Maslo
When the soul has left the body (or in case of abortion, there was no soul to begin with), why shouldnt we utilise the empty vessel, if it can help other people? We consider it honorable to donate organs of the dead or to give your body for science. Why shouldnt the same apply to abortions? I dont see the issue here.

Whether you are being deliberately provocative or not...the dead mostly are dead because of natural death.

Abortion victims are dead because of the direct intervention of humans to halt the NATURAL Progression of life.

No one is judging the women who have chosen abortion , because of rape, health reasons ect.

But lets be honest , they are in the minority.

No on e can judge anyone, because we are all human and gulity of transgressions.

Otherwise we would be God himself.

But the industry of death,,is not even of the the most wicked.

It is of 'the evil one ".
And we need to know that.

Just think, of the numbers, the reasons, the motive.

To deny, to kill, to silence ....life.

The very thing we here were granted.

How can we not be passionate about the right to ...Live?

To live.
To live.
Life.
Not pre ordinated death.

reply to post by OrionsWitness

Whether you are being deliberately provocative or not...the dead mostly are dead because of natural death.

Abortion victims are dead because of the direct intervention of humans to halt the NATURAL Progression of life.

Are you implying we should disallow organ donations from murder victims? I dont see how the cause of death is relevant to the morality of using the body to help others after death. Whether the cause was natural or deliberate killing, after they are dead, there is no moral difference in using the body further to me.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Dear SplitInfinity,

Forgive me for taking so long to get back to your question. I don't think you're going to like my answer.

When I first saw the thread headline, I thought "Whoa, that's really interesting." Thanks to a little digging, and Phage's skepticism, I came to the belief that while (Fetal tissue? Baby parts?) are being sold, it's not in the form of stem cells necessarily, but the tissue and its products themselves.

I really did not consider the "shoulds" or morality of the issue, even when the OP started to make that the main theme of his remarks. In fact, it wasn't until you asked the question that I seriously considered it. (I suspect you're not going to believe that, but it's true. Swear it on my Mother's grave, which is, thankfully, still empty.) That's why I was surprised at the question:

Is it more important to spend much time villifying and protesting this use of tissue?

I didn't realize I had. For me, it's not very important. For some, it's life and death. Strange country we live in, huh? Do I think the nation as a whole should give it top priority? No. Maybe in the bottom portion of medium priority, because where there is money there is always the chance for corruption.

Concerning "morning after pills," I don't care much either. My understanding is that they are not difficult to obtain and not terribly expensive (Of course I may be wrong, I haven't gone shopping for them). I wouldn't suppose anyone would have to take one a week, for example. Importance? Not much, really. It seems like a problem that has already been solved.

Some emotional thoughts? (Is there such a thing?) Using fetal tissue from an abortion offends the moral beliefs I have accepted because it is so closely tied to abortion. And, there's a little "respect for the dead" issue. Plus, the "when does life begin" discussion. I won't go further because I'm not a preacher.

On making the pill the subject of any government activity, either making it easier or harder to obtain, I'm a little upset. The original abortion movement was based on the right to privacy and the rallying cry of "Keep your laws off my body." Ok, fine. The government should stay out of it. The pills should only be regulated to the extent that any other drug of it's potency should be regulated. Paying for it? I'm inclined to say that it shouldn't be, put that in the bottom portion of my high priority list.

I don't know that I've properly answered your question, I'd be glad to try again if I haven't, but know that I'm speaking absolutely honestly with no agenda or tricks. I respect you too much for that.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Don't worry about how I feel about your belifs Chuck as you have a right to have them and you ALWAYS present them with CLASS AND RESPECT for you fellow ATS Members.

You understand that this is only a debate and when a person becomes emotional over such a debate and then makes it a PERSONAL ISSUE between themselves and others who may have a different view or opinion...it dumbs down the entire discussion.

I neither advocate abortion or the use of Fetal Tissues in something other than a purpose of developing cures for various diseases.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Phage

 

Dear Phage,

Thank you for inspiring me to look more into this issue. I see that my sources and approach were largely in error, my scientific ignorance is profound.

What I have learned, however, is that this isn't about stem cells at all. We're looking at the wrong thing. I've found a lot in the area of fetal tissue work which is, perhaps more disturbing than the stem cell false trail I was following. I've only done a little looking, and it's late, I may come back to it in a few hours.

But, first, to briefly respond to your points. I have not expressed any opinions about abortion in this thread, they are not relevant to the OP. And, again, this is not about fetal cells but, as the headline states, aborted humans.

Here's a catalog listing:

MVP Human Normal Fetal Tissue Total RNA

MVP RNA is application-ready RNA available in small economical pack sizes. Extensive and rigorous quality control including many application specific assays provides assurance that the RNA is intact, full-length and nearly DNA-free.

Extensive quality control ensures high-quality, pure RNA
Eliminates tedious, time consuming RNA isolation procedures
Application ready for real time RT-PCR, miRNA detection and Northern blot analysisApplication ready for real time RT-PCR, miRNA detection and Northern blot analysis
Small, economically priced and convenient 25 µg pack sizes
Matched sets of normal and diseased tissue from the same donor
Well-documented donor, tissue pathology information

Total RNA, Fetal Brain, Human, 25 µg

540157

25 µg

$63.00

Genomics.Agilent
And here's an interesting book:

Human Fetal Tissue Transplantation is a timely publication that provides details of many aspects of the potential use of fetal tissues for therapeutic applications. As many tissues are wasted on a daily basis it appropriate to raise discussion on how to maximize access to discard tissue and at the same time engage in discussion of the ethics associated with fetal tissue procurement and clinical use.

I assure you, I have just scratched the surface.
www.springer.com...
Thanks again for your inspiration. It looks like the OP may very well have been right. (Still not sure about the billions, but I'd bet a dime that it's at least millions.)

With respect,
Charles1952

Charles,

I hope I'm not intruding or missing the mark and posting off topic. But I think this is pertinent to the subject at hand.

I remember reading a thread, a while back here on ATS, about a stem cell research break though in HIV research, and member Phagette was discussing the use of fetal liver tissue in mice experiments. It was fascinating, and I was able to find it again here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

So I know I just said some very disconcerting things. First off, "fetal?" Yes. I was pretty surprised at first, as well. And, fetal tissue is just as hard to come by as you might think. We have relationships with hospitals and clinics. Patients must be undergoing elective abortions and they must sign a consent/release form in order to obtain the tissue. Then someone has to procure the proper the tissues, also not an easy job.

Because the human immune system begins in the fetal liver and fetal thymus, we take those tissues. From the fetal liver, we isolate what are called CD34+ cells. These are hematopoietic (that's just scientist speak for blood) progenitor cells. We don't actually call them stem cells in the lab because they are not true stem cells. In fact, they are so far away from embryonic stem cells, they are considered "adult stem cells," which are scientifically called progenitor cells instead of stem cells. These CD34+ cells have the potential to become every single cell type in our blood, which makes them great cells to study gene therapy for all blood diseases like sickle cell anemia, hemoglobin disorders and HIV! So we isolate the CD34+ cells and genetically modify them so that they contain the anti-HIV genes we want to express.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Anyway, it kinda explains why "fetal" is not always stem cells that are used and how and why other fetal tissues are of value.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

You know what I see? I see someone who is more than quick to condemn and villify but lacks anything in the way of compasion and a desire to help women find another way that works. It is unfortunate that you are so far away from the GOD and teaching of related to that GOD as you are doing everything against the concepts of Christianity as well as all Monotheistic Religions. I feel sorry for you because you really have no understanding of what you seem to hold dear. That is a greater tragedy than anything I can think of. Split Infinity

You have accused me several times of vilifying women , but like a true coward does, you cannot even quote where I have done so.
If you lack the understanding to read what my posts are saying then that should not give you the right to wrongfully accuse me of something I haven't done.
Nowhere have I personally acted as you have done ie denegrate another member.
You have misrepresented me most acutely and shamefully by deceit, in order to pigeon hole an anti abortion stance.

An apology would be brave.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

Thank you very much for the information. I learn a lot on ATS, and you are one of the best teachers. Very appropriate and helpful.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by OrionsWitness

I know this is off-topic, and if you want to call the Mods, I would deserve whatever penalty they choose.

I haven't had the chance to talk with you yet, this thread went in two different directions and we weren't on the same path. May I offer a bit of advice? I'm not you and I don't know your passions and abilities. But I would really like to suggest that you try a different approach to your discussion with SplitInfinity.

It seems like the discussion is getting pretty hostile and personal. That's bad for several reasons. I disagree with SplitInfinity regularly, but she is approachable and willing to discuss positions if you keep it at that level. She has been around here awhile and seen a lot, you might be able to learn something from her, I know I have.

Also, keep your purpose in mind. You should realize by now that she is not going to accept the proposition that abortion is evil and ungodly. Trying to get her to will just raise her resistance sky high. My own suggestion is to look for some commonn ground, start off slowly trying to find some area of agreement and work from there. If you pay attention, you'll know when you've come to the heart of the disagreement. Then you decide whether to push or agree to disagree. I've pushed on ATS twice, I think. Each time it was a question of fact, and each time, the other person agreed that his information was outdated. Of course, that's just my style and may not be yours.

You may also be creating an impression on SplitInfinity that you really don't want to. If things get heated here, what do you think her response will be the next time she sees your name? There are two posters here I refuse to talk to because of what they've said, I don't think you want anyone to feel that way about you.

If it gets really ugly, the Mods will slap a penalty on you, or maybe both of you. You're fairly new and I don't think you want to get a reputation with management.

And, most importantly, we are to love our enemies. Yes, that's really hard to do sometime, but we've been ordered to. Check with yourself and see if the love is there.

Anyway, I want to see you succeed here. I appreciate people who stand up for their beliefs. There's no need to burn yourself out with anger, or alienate others.

If I've offended, I sincerely apologize.

reply to post by charles1952


No offense taken you and I have been friends in a previous incarnation of mine.
But I was attacked for stating my belief on a subject, not the other way around.
You speak wisdom.

Humanity, I hesitate to call it that, has stooped so low.

It seems like cannibalism to me.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Humanity, I hesitate to call it that, has stooped so low.

It seems like cannibalism to me.

That sounds like some super generic BS to me

reply to post by OrionsWitness

Dear OrionsWitness,

You've made me happy. I'm glad we were friends before. I like your strength.

Believing in evil, as an actual force, will not endear you to many people. But I don't think evil's existence is deniable. You will be attacked. Your spirit is not widely accepted here. What's new? The world is like that.

Stay true to the Truth and may He welcome you as a faithful friend.

With respect,
Charles1952