Why isn't abortion murder?

reply to post by neoholographic


By this logic (life begins at conception, all ending of life is murder) you are a murderer every time you eat plant or animal, step on bug on purpose or not.

For libertarians - it should be a personal soverignty issue - a woman's right to soveingty over her own body.

All scripture denotes - human life as beginning at the first inhalation.

From the christian bible:

"Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live." (Ezekiel 37:5)

and

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
-- Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

Beyond that - it's a personal liberty issue.

When the Forced Pregnancy folks start adopting and caring for unwanted children and their familes, stop wanting to kill every one that thinks, believes or acts differently then we can talk.

I heard an interesting answer to my question of why men where so threatened by abortion from a professor of mine "Because they are afraid that their mother might have aborted them." Don't know if I believe it - but....

Abortion is murder. So what?

Society decides all the time who it's okay to kill and who it isn't. That's one of the prices we pay for living in organized groups. If you don't like it, you can try to get the laws changed, go off and live in the woods by yourself, or find another society where that particular kind of murder isn't sanctioned. You gotta watch out though, some places in the world still think it's okay to kill people who have different political philosophies, or you happen to be a woman and your husband doesn't want you around anymore. Boom. Dead.

Cruel world, huh?

Originally posted by neoholographic
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

You're not making any sense at all. Yes, abortion is murder but it's lawful murder because of Roe vs. Wade. This is why I said Roe should be overturned.

Abortion is intentionally cutting off the process of life. It's murder.


Abortion is lawful sadly but it's lawful murder (intent to kill).

and so is eating animals and plants (but then you personally didn't do the killing).

Why is war okay?????? Killing grown-ups in the name of security is okay?

ERROR - ERROR

reply to post by vasaga


1)Because you cannot legislate an opinion, which is what morality is. Which means, in the end, the only part taht matters is the legality of it.

2)I live in America. Thats why I worry about american laws.

3)Abortion is legal. Nothing is being forced. You have the choice whether to have one or not. The ony thing you are being 'forced' to do is let other people have the freedom to make choices for themself.

4)In your opinion, its a bad thing. Funny how people have a hard time grasping that. The good news, again, is that it is your choice. Dont want one? Dont have it. What others do with their body does not affect you.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by rimjaja

 

I'm sorry for your experience, but that is YOUR life, and has no bearing on anyone elses. Its sad that you have had issues having kids, but that in no way gives you the right to tell others that they MUST carry a child to term.

As for adoption, you do understand how terrible the american adoption system is, dont you?

If you took the time to read my post, no where would you see that I said that people shouldn't have the right to get an abortion. I just wish that the same funding that Planned Parenthood gets was available for viable alternatives. I am 100% opposed to late term abortions where life of the mother is not at stake or the baby is incompatible with life.

American adoptions have declined and been made exceedingly difficult as abortions become more readily available. It is in its current state specifically because demand exceeds supply. I think we could remedy even a small portion of that.

Because lots of people have been conditioned and brainwashed by progressive ideology (federally centralized education and globalist corporate controlled media) which has always had eugenics at its heart.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


1) So things that were legislated were not opinions of politicians then?

2) Well I'm not. So does that somehow make everything I say irrelevant because it's not american law?

3) The being is forced to stop living

4) It does affect culture, and the type of society we live in, which ultimately affects everyone.


Forget it. Let's actually put some things in perspective here, and maybe, you'll start seeing the absurdity...

Someone else kills fetus by kicking a woman - Murder (illegal)
Woman kills fetus by herself - Murder (illegal)
Woman lets government kill fetus - Not murder (Legal)

What's wrong with this picture?

reply to post by vasaga


1)They arent based on morality, they are based on science. Theres a difference.

2)?? No, but it makes it less relevant to the points I am making, as they are based on american law.

3)life does not begin at conception.

4)Only if you let it. All you have to do is accept that not everyone shares your view on morality, and then it affects you not one bit. How does it affect society if somebody has an abortion. i would love to hear that one explained.

5)For the third time in this thread (seriously, this argument comes up in every one of these discussions, and is one of the weakest out there):

Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus.

dictionary.law.com...

I think every woman should be aloud 1 abortion. If you come in a 2nd time, they kill you instead.

Seems fair to me.

bottom line...

there are already too many people.


if you want to save babys from abortion.. then they can live with you in your house and you can feed them

i don't want to pay for unwanted babys to exist, and the govt cant afford it

reply to post by captaintyinknots


I'm not gonna bother replying to your numbers... But.. By your own definition:

Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus.

Bold part is the key point. What I said still stands...

If someone else kills a fetus by kicking a woman, it's considered murder.
If a woman kills the fetus by herself, it's considered murder.
If a woman lets the government kill a fetus, then somehow magically, it's no longer considered murder.

Can anyone explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever, without appeal to authority? Obviously, the arguments that were presented here, that it's about the woman being able to choose and whatnot do not hold water, because if she really could choose, it wouldn't be illegal to do it on her own.

This whole thing is about the government always being the exception to the rules, so that it can pretend to be this benevolent savior of us all, and you people blindly following them. No one can kill, except the government. No one can counter-fit, except the government. No one can kidnap, except the government. No one can steal, except the government. No one can abort babies, except the government.

In other words... The only reason abortion is not considered murder, is because the government says so. There is no other real substantial logical empirical reason. And if you believe that governments are always right, then you agree that abortion is not murder. But if you think logically............

reply to post by vasaga


No, what you said doesnt still stand. Do you know what legal authority is? Do you know who has it over an early term fetus? The mother.

The definition I posted (3 times) spells it out pretty clearly-so long as you understand what legal authority is.


You are free to consider it murder all that you want, but everything that actually has any bearing in this country says that you are incorrect.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


So what you're saying is that the government does not have the right to kill the fetus if the mother does not want it to. And if it really is the mother, why is it illegal for her to do it herself? Clearly, she is NOT the authority.

Originally posted by vasaga
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

So what you're saying is that the government does not have the right to kill the fetus if the mother does not want it to.

Im saying forced abortion is illegal. And is considered a crime against humanity.

As for the mother performing it herself, nearly all surgeries are illegal if performed outside of a medical environment. That one is purely about medical standards.

It`s not murder because the constitution only applies to american citizens. To be a citizen you must be born in this country or be a naturalized citizen. since a fetus isn`t born yet it is not a person nor is it a citizen and therefore does not have the constitutional right to life. Just as a dog or cat or tree are not citizens and also do not have constitutional rights to life or anything else.dogs, cats, and trees are not people, so should we charge people with murder if they cut down a tree?

If fetuses are granted citizenship at the time of conception then every fetus conceived within the borders of the U.S. will be a citizen regardless of the nationality and citizenship of the parents.
we would also have to start paying welfare,foodstamps and other government handouts to the parents starting from the time of conception rather than from the time of birth.

It just doesn`t make any sense to grant citizenship to fetuses conceived in the U.S.
illegals would cross the border, spend 1 night at a motel 6 to conceive a fetus so that it would be an american citizen and they would have an anchor baby that allows them to stay in the country.

reply to post by neoholographic


Because a collection of cells without a brain isnt a person.

Society has made a democratic choice. If you want to challange that choice dont do it with such poor arguments.

From reading a few posts on this topic I get the sense that alot feel that since the fetus isn't out and able to nourish or care for itself that it is not human. With this strain of logic shouldn't we be able to kill our infants, since they cannot care and nourish themselves? Furthermore, a human body adds cells up until your teen years, so if the cell division hasn't stopped until then, are teens not fully human then? Just some thoughts.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by vasaga
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

So what you're saying is that the government does not have the right to kill the fetus if the mother does not want it to.

Im saying forced abortion is illegal. And is considered a crime against humanity.

As for the mother performing it herself, nearly all surgeries are illegal if performed outside of a medical environment. That one is purely about medical standards.

edit on 15-1-2013 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)

Which are enforced by the government, which means the government is the authority. But meh, whatever...

Bottom line, the only reason it's not murder is because the government says so.

reply to post by vasaga


Funny, seems the only other option is for THE GOVERNMENT TO DEFINE IT AS MURDER. Take government out of it altogether and what do you have? Thats right, the right to choose, because if its not about laws, its about personal choice.

And it all comes back around to the same thing: If you want one, you are free to choose to have one. If you dont, you are still free to choose not to.

Funny how the person screaming about 'government definitions' doesnt grasp that making abortion illegal, and defining it as murder, would be far more government control than leaving it pro choice.

But Im with you, it should be removed from government altogether. Which, again, would leave it as a right to choose.

Originally posted by neoholographic
I'm trying to figure this one out. I'm a Conservative guy when it comes to economics but fairly liberal when it comes to social issues but I just can't see the logic in a womans right to choose.

I think it's safe to say that you are also a conservative guy when it comes to social issues.

So with just rape, incest and the life of the mother, that would be around 6,500,000 abortions and you would save 43,500,000 lives.

And you would be willing to take on paying for all of those lives with your taxes or wouldn't mind those saved lives ending up in the system (prisons, welfare etc) later on due to unhealthy environments they were rasied in because they were forced to be born to parents who couldn't afford to take care of them, or were not emotionally available or prepared for the HUGE responsibility that comes with being a parent.

And who is to say those lives that are 'saved' would not also be lost due to some of those babies that are born into an unloving or innadequate family circumstance who turned out psychotic and killed a bunch more people when they came of age?

So so so many variables, yet there are still those who choose to see it in black and white because it is easier than facing the truth.

Questions:

Are you a parent?
Have you ever had the full responsibility of raising a child, feeding, clothing, raising, teaching, etc?
Have you ever had to carry a child to term?