Why isn't abortion murder?

reply to post by captaintyinknots

I disagree. I don't think any pregnant woman ought to be permitted to choose to have an abortion on a whim, and then have that procedure occur, without being required to accept some counselling to fully explore her options, even to the degree that she might be encouraged to take a close look at the value of human life and her ability to bring joy to a childless couple. Services could even pair her with that couple, so that she becomes like a surrogate mother to their child. You know, instead of just extracting "it" and chucking it in the waste disposal bin..

I think there should be exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother but those make up a small percentage of cases.

I'm in agreement with your point of view for the most part. But I'd like to point out a contradiction I see in this argument.

You have clearly stated in your introduction that a child is a child at conception and not birth (I agree). However, If that be considered the case, and the fetus is now a living human being, (as you propose) granted the same rights as a born human being, then how come the fetus is treated with "less value" in your statement if it is the offspring of a rapist or would cause harm to the mother?

In other words, how can there be an exception for abortion because of a fetus's parentage or because the birth would be "at risk" to the mother? By granting exceptions to your own "pro life" proposal. You enforce the same ideals that the pro-choicers make that the fetus in FACT is NOT a human being granted equal rights.

I see this contradiction in almost all "Pro-Lifers" arguments. Personally, I don't believe you CANNOT say a fetus is a child that's granted equal rights and protections at birth AND then turn around and basically say that the childs life is "less important/relevant" than the mothers life due to the fetus's parentage or the possible risk of the mothers death.

If we were to say, legally speaking, that a fetus is a human being with equal rights UNLESS it's the offspring of a rapist or it's birth would cause harm to the mother, then you would open up a legal area to argue that living human beings could possibly be considered to be of "less value" due to OTHER conditions. Such as income level, criminal record, etc etc. And this my friend would be a violation of everything the constitution and bill of rights stand for.

Thus I declare you CANNOT legalize abortion for ANY means as it would be an infringement of another's right to life and liberty......Or, you can come to the conclusion that we already did with ROE Vs. WADE.

All in all.. Although I agree abortion is an abomination and murder and wrong.... It's legal and necessary....Being pro life and granting exceptions for abortion is a bigger contradiction than a pro choicers point of view on the issue.

In other words, yes.... It's legal murder....And necessary to the security a liberty of a free state....Sucks, but that's just the way it is.....

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

I disagree. I don't think any pregnant woman ought to be permitted to choose to have an abortion on a whim, and then have that procedure occur, without being required to accept some counselling to fully explore her options, even to the degree that she might be encouraged to take a close look at the value of human life and her ability to bring joy to a childless couple. Services could even pair her with that couple, so that she becomes like a surrogate mother to their child. You know, instead of just extracting "it" and chucking it in the waste disposal bin..

1)How many women do you know that have ever had an abortion on a whim? Ive never heard of a circumstance where someone was able to walk in and have one, drive through style.

2)No one has the right to try and shame a woman out of having an abortion. I agree they should all be offered counseling, AFTER the procedure. There are already plenty of religious groups posing as women's clinics out there that use the shame tactic to talk women out of abortions-we dont need it to happen more than it already does.

3)I agree that there should be some sort of service to match up with potential couples trying to have a baby. IF THE WOMAN CHOOSES TO. Forcing her to carry the baby for 9 months because someone else wants a child is not logical. If she doesnt want to have that baby, the fact that someone else wants a baby shouldnt affect her rights.

reply to post by captaintyinknots

How is it that the woman alone is given the power to choose between life and death, just because the fetus is housed in her body?

And yes, plenty of abortions, tons of them (if you weighed the fetuses) occur because of mere inconvenience. It's a disgrace, and an albatross on the neck of the whole nation.

AFTER? By then it's too late. No, she ought to be required, by law, to take counselling BEFORE making her choice, and not "shamed" into having the baby, but simply informed to the highest degree possible, that the life choice is also available i.e.: adoption.

I call it pro-life choice, which would make a great moderate position for someone running for office.

reply to post by foodstamp


I actually think, with the utmost certainty, that Jesus was a rape child and look at how he handled it..!

"Behold woman (look mom) I make all things new!" (virginal)
~ While carrying the cross.

Sad, but true.

No I'm not condoning rape (obviously), but this notion that such a conception has no value, once it's already taken place, is actually false, particularly when we look to the person of Jesus.

reply to post by Biliverdin

 

I disagree. The Gospels indicate that Jesus held John The Baptist in the very highest regard ie: "there are none born of a woman greater than John", the only differentiation here being that Jesus, although of course also born of a woman considered himself re-born from above, not of the flesh, but of the spirit.

Nicodemus and Jesus - Reborn
go to 2:24 in the vid - segment runs to 5:35

Note catefully the subtle nuances (intentionally directed) in this exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus surrounding the issue of rebirth.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

How is it that the woman alone is given the power to choose between life and death, just because the fetus is housed in her body?

And yes, plenty of abortions, tons of them (if you weighed the fetuses) occur because of mere inconvenience. It's a disgrace, and an albatross on the neck of the whole nation.

AFTER? By then it's too late. No, she ought to be required, by law, to take counselling BEFORE making her choice, and not "shamed" into having the baby, but simple informed to the highest degree possible, that the life choice is also available ie: adoption.

1)Because that is how nature made it. Not much of a discussion here, unless you are speaking of mens rights, which is another topic.

2)Convenience and 'on a whim' are not the same thing. So which do you really mean?

3)Yes after. Because MANY women need it after an abortion. For most, it is not the 'willy-nilly' decision that anti-choicers paint it to be. Many, even if they feel in their hearts that it was the right thing, still struggle with it. They should be afforded the necessary help.

I have never heard of an abortion in the US where the patient did not have to sit and talk with the doctor beforehand. Options are presented. Adoption is brought up. Outside of pressuring them, what else would you have them do?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

I disagree. I don't think any pregnant woman ought to be permitted to choose to have an abortion on a whim, and then have that procedure occur, without being required to accept some counselling to fully explore her options, even to the degree that she might be encouraged to take a close look at the value of human life and her ability to bring joy to a childless couple. Services could even pair her with that couple, so that she becomes like a surrogate mother to their child. You know, instead of just extracting "it" and chucking it in the waste disposal bin..

Women don't have abortions on "a whim." They have them because they find themselves in a unplanned predicament. Many pregnancies are the outcome of failed birth control. If a woman's birth control fails, there is no reason for her to seek counseling. She has every right to abort based on the fact that, by using birth control, she clearly stated that she had no intention of becoming a parent because of a sexual encounter.

The fact that you would like to force a woman seeking an abortion to undergo some sort of counseling is, in fact, legislating a moral viewpoint of the "value of human life" and that abortion is intrinsically wrong. Any legally enforced suggestion that she should consider it her duty to surrogate for some unfortunate couple, because of her predicament, or that she displayed some unwanted behavior that needs to be corrected, is coercion.

In the case of teenagers who believe that "you can't get pregnant your first time," or "jumping up and down" or "douching with Coca Cola with protect you" or whatever old wives tale of ignorance happens to be going around, should be met with Sex Ed strategy in the schools. But, of course, we have parents who will scream "indoctrination!" and "abstinence is the only way!"

Women aren't stupid. They know what being pregnant means. They don't need counseling to be told that. Women also know that adoption is an option without being forced to undergo pro-life films and Bible thumping, self righteous preaching.

reply to post by windword

It's a very very grave choice, that's all I'm saying, not one that ought to be allowed to be made quickly or lightly. And if there's any truth to the 49th day idea (although I wouldn't know how that could be proven scientifically), then the time limit ought to be reduced say to within the first month or something like that. The unborn are the most vulnerable of human beings and they must be protected to the best of our ability, especially once they become a human being.

reply to post by windword

I don't know, it seems like getting an abortion especially in US culture is "no biggie" and it happens all the time without even much thought in many cases.

I never said to overturn Roe vs. Wade, but that we need to take a close look at fetal development to determine to the best of our ability when we have an actual human being, and, that there ought to be legally mandated counselling BEFORE, as well as after whenever that choice is made.

As it sits now, it's just not right and it short circuits the cycle of life on a massive scale, imho.

reply to post by ParaSpy2012


I doubt you read my comment, or perhaps it was missed. You can read it here

I encourage others to read it aswell, as my concern is not whether abortion is ethically/morally correct, but rather, how is one to make an ethical decision when one is "on the fence"?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by windword

 

I don't know, it seems like getting an abortion especially in US culture is "no biggie" and it happens all the time without even much thought in many cases.

What do you base this statement on? I have known 4 people in my life that have had an abortion, and not one of them took it lightly. In fact, all 4 have told me it was the toughest decision they have ever made.

i know the anti-choice propaganda likes to say it is just like going to the drive through for women, but I suggest you talk to some real people. Might change your view.

Originally posted by OldSchoolMom

It's very simple:
1 Timothy 4:1 says:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Psalm 106:37-39
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

1 Corinthians 6:19
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Do not be deceived, it is what it is, Murder of the innocent.
I hope this helps understanding. There are so much scripture that describes the evil inventions of demons. Perhaps that's one reason God's Word is so hated in these days, the deceptions are fully exposed.

That's why we must read the scripture and ask God to reveal the truth to you (he will) rather than listening/trusting others as you well know by now the world is saturated with deceiving spirits.

James 4:4
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

God bless

It's 2013.

Let's stop pretending a 4,000 year old book that has been changed thousands of times by human beings has control over every single person's life.

This is not a legitimate source of human morality whatsoever. Look at the last scripture you quoted: "Make sure you're a sociopath or God is your enemy"; come on, now.

reply to post by captaintyinknots

I'm not saying that most women take it lightly, only that it's often the default choice when unexpected or unwanted, and that countless innocents are needlessly terminated and simply thrown away, and also when we look at the total number of abortions during say the last fifty years that the numbers are just staggering. I'd need to do more research on it, but I'm also concerned about the time-limits involved i.e.: at what point is a human being a human being, because they also have rights and protections not to to be killed and thrown away on a waste heap. It's a very difficult issue obviously, and I don't care if what I'm saying isn't popular, but it just seems to me that there's something wrong, that the present system and the way things are done now isn't the best or the optimal one, that's all.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I'm not saying that most women take it lightly, only that it's often the default choice when unexpected or unwanted, and that countless innocents are needlessly terminated and simply thrown away, and also when we look at the total number of abortions during say the last fifty years that the numbers are just staggering.

I don't think it's fair to say it's a default choice, perhaps more the last and only choice. Do you have any alternatives when every other preventative measure has failed? Is there any other choice if keeping it is just not an option?

I can say as a woman, I have been afraid to ever have to face this choice, and luckily for me I have not had to. However, I do know that if it happened to me right now then I would chose not to keep it. My husband and I have already decided we only want one child. We are in no position financially or emotionally or support wise from family to take on another child. It would ruin us. Our relationship would probably fall apart. Our current child would not get any of the right amount of attention he needs and wants. And every day would become a struggle for us. Not to mention my belief that there are already so many people in this world I don't need to be greedy and bring in a whole bunch more that will end up becoming a burden on society because I can't afford to feed, clothe and am emotionally unavailable to give them all the loving care and attention they would require to grow into the best version of themselves.

We take every precaution we can, I wish I could afford to have an IUD though, but our insurance doesn't cover it and it would cost us 800+ out of pocket. If you want to give me that money I'll be glad to take that extra precaution as well!

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but abortions are not exactly a walk in the park. They can be very painful, I hope I never have to have one. It would not be a matter of waking up in the morning and saying oh oops I'm pregnant oh let's go have an abortion and at 3 oclock that afternoon I skip out of the clinic with a smile on my face and a bounce in my step. Total utter bull.

As for the legally mandated counselling you suggest. That's total crap. If I'm there, I've already been agonizing over every last detail and possible outcome, I don't need somebody to try and 'counsel' me as to what they think I should do. Sure if somebody wants to talk to somebody then by all means have these counsellors available. But if these counsellors are there to simply try and dissuade me or scare me into changing my mind, that's ridiculous.

My body, my life, my right to choose. If you don't like it then...tough.

reply to post by seeker11

Well then let's just hope then that there isn't an incarnating spirit-soul with it's eye on your and your husband.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by seeker11

 

Well then let's just hope then that there isn't an incarnating spirit-soul with it's eye on your and your husband.

I'm not sure I follow... If you are suggesting that I will be stopping an incarnating soul by my choice... well they will just have to find another family... Assuming of course that incarnation is a fact and not a theory.

reply to post by seeker11


My daughter has an IUD. She was taken off the pill by her doctor, because of blood pressure problems. She has bled all but 5 days since it was implanted 6 months ago. It was very expensive and she can't afford to spend the extra money to have it removed and switch to another contraceptive system.

Anyone who thinks that birth control is simple and cheap is ignorant and out of touch!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by seeker11

 

Well then let's just hope then that there isn't an incarnating spirit-soul with it's eye on you and your husband.

That's just down right creepy. An uninvited entity dwelling and taking possession inside one body, is an unholy alliance.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Why isn't abortion murder?,

It IS murder. One human stopping another humans heart from beating is murder. It's legalized murder but people don't want to see the truth of that. Sad but true.

Same goes for the military....

One kills someone who has never said a word, nor seen the world.

The other kills someone who has friends, family, and likely a child of their own.

We're probably doing them both a favor though...this is one f'd up place.

Originally posted by seeker11

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by seeker11

 

Well then let's just hope then that there isn't an incarnating spirit-soul with it's eye on your and your husband.

I'm not sure I follow... If you are suggesting that I will be stopping an incarnating soul by my choice... well they will just have to find another family... Assuming of course that incarnation is a fact and not a theory.

I just meant it in a playful jest sort of way.. I think. Can't be certain I suppose. If there was, it would be better maybe if all women were to make up their mind before engaging in sexual intercourse, that way the spirit-soul would know in advance where to incarnate, and where not to.

It's pretty funny in a grave sort of way, and this is a grave issue of deep importance and significance.

It could be embedded into the education curriculum that notion of knowing in advance what you will choose to do if you get pregnant, just in case there is such a thing as the karmic wheel of incarnation and reincarnation.

In either case though we do need to determine when a human being is a human being - I say go for the 49th day idea, and then cut it to a month just to be on the safe side, within which to make the choice, but since we're waiting for a skipped period in many cases (if they don't test for it), it would be cutting it close at 40 days. Beyond that it's just not fair, or might not be fair, and if there's someone already there it certainly wouldn't be.

That's my thoughts on it in a nutshell for whatever it's worth, as a way to deal with it, and err on the side of an ethical decision point for the whole of the society and the web of the human family of which we are all a part in many cases by a great deal of luck I suppose.