Originally posted by ultimatelizardman
Firstly, how do you explain the high frequency of mass killings in China and Belgium, two countries (with vastly different populations) where obtaining a firearm is just as hard as in the UK?

Secondly, what gives you the right to tell others that they don't need a weapon for self-defense? Only the individual can decide on whether he needs to own a firearm for the purpose of self-defense, not "the majority" and certainly not the government.

firstly, i dont. this is about the uk and my many comments in this thread have been focussed on that. these countries are an entirely different kettle of fish and i wont comment on something i know so little about, it's an involved issue after all.

secondly, i am not telling people what they can and cant do, i have been expressing my feeling that i am happy with how things are here in relation to our gun laws and debating that issue. i think i have been clear on that, if not, hopefully this post emphasises that.

Originally posted by skalla
firstly, i dont. this is about the uk and my many comments in this thread have been focussed on that. these countries are an entirely different kettle of fish and i wont comment on something i know so little about, it's an involved issue after all.

secondly, i am not telling people what they can and cant do, i have been expressing my feeling that i am happy with how things are here in relation to our gun laws and debating that issue. i think i have been clear on that, if not, hopefully this post emphasises that.

In response to your first point: i was using other countries to try and make a point, namely that gun control has no effect whatsoever on the frequency of mass killings while it increases the frequency of most other crimes and significantly increases the severity of all crimes.

In response to your second point: by saying that you're happy with the current gun laws in your country you are implying that you are happy with the fact that other people are not being allowed to decide for themselves whether they need a firearm for their own protection and the protection of their loved-ones, ergo you are passively telling others what they should need.

Originally posted by ultimatelizardman

Originally posted by skalla
firstly, i dont. this is about the uk and my many comments in this thread have been focussed on that. these countries are an entirely different kettle of fish and i wont comment on something i know so little about, it's an involved issue after all.

secondly, i am not telling people what they can and cant do, i have been expressing my feeling that i am happy with how things are here in relation to our gun laws and debating that issue. i think i have been clear on that, if not, hopefully this post emphasises that.

In response to your first point: i was using other countries to try and make a point, namely that gun control has no effect whatsoever on the frequency of mass killings while it increases the frequency of most other crimes and significantly increases the severity of all crimes.

In response to your second point: by saying that you're happy with the current gun laws in your country you are implying that you are happy with the fact that other people are not being allowed to decide for themselves whether they need a firearm for their own protection and the protection of their loved-ones, ergo you are passively telling others what they should need.

edit on 16-1-2013 by ultimatelizardman because: (no reason given)

to suggest that i cannot express my feelings about the law in my own country is ludicrous, get a grip. this is a debate forum that i cannot express my feelings in?

i'm not going around in circles any further on this tonight, if you wish to make any sense in further posts i'll most likely be checking in at some point tomorrow, good night

Originally posted by skalla
to suggest that i cannot express my feelings about the law in my own country is ludicrous, get a grip. this is a debate forum that i cannot express my feelings in?

The problem i have here is that this particular law, like all strict gun-control laws, violates two innate human rights: the right to exert one's free will and the right to self-preservation.

This is just silly.....As long as you are not a criminal or a loony, you can legally own a gun in the UK.

Just join a shooting club, get some training and then apply for a license for the weapon(s) that you wish to use.

Semi-auto rifles over .22 cal and handguns are completely off the cards, but then our biggest carnivores are the fox and the badger and we never had Cowboys (or Indians).....Other than that the world's your Saiga!

Originally posted by squarehead666
This is just silly.....As long as you are not a criminal or a loony, you can legally own a gun in the UK.

Just join a shooting club, get some training and then apply for a license for the weapon(s) that you wish to use.

Semi-auto rifles over .22 cal and handguns are completely off the cards, but then our biggest carnivores are the fox and the badger and we never had Cowboys (or Indians).....Other than that the world's your Saiga!

So, in other words you can't own anything that is appropriate for self defense or would challenge the government's ability to exert force upon the populace. Gotcha.

People seem to be missing the point of societies 'greater conditioning'.

British people haven't had firearms in a long time, as such we're not used to owning or using them. You can't change the law and suddenly tell people that owning a gun is okay, can you imagine the ramifications of that? The youth in the UK is borderline feral. I say that living in a quaint village, near Liverpool. The youth here are HORRIBLE. Truly horrible. So are the 'teens' and early twenties, sometimes early 30's. They're called 'chavs' and are equivalent to Americas 'rednecks'. Ours are three times as numerous.

Even without the presence of the feral youth we are still left with a problem. That being that everyone would WANT to use their new toy. They'd actively make situations to use their weapons, thinking it'll bring them that feeling of 'freedom' they've been denied for so long. They'd be shooting cans off of walls and seeing how many cd's a bullet goes through.

I hate to say it but the British people are ashamedly addicted to being oppressively ruled. We thrive on moaning and doing nothing about it. Like the rest of the world really. Or maybe it's just us on these kinds of information quests. We come to a realisation, though it takes a while, that after the optimism we know - deep down - that no one's going to act. No one. We know that it'll get worse and worse and we just can't stop it.

Every time the 'people' organise it breaks down through lack of cohesion, we can't orgnise because everyone is too busy being an 'individual' that they can't come to a common goal.

Come on guys it's over. I HATE to say it, but it is OVER. Our optimism is wasted now, we may as well figure what we'll do when the 'power that is' brings the system down. The people are NOT going to wake up and the more we ask them too, the further they'll push us away....

End.

Evan man, you live in the UK, you all have gardens...catch my drift? Illegal guns are easy to come by, get one.

Anyone found entering your home at 03.00 in the morning?

Shoot the #er, then bury him. Case closed.

If there are more than one, just make sure you don't miss any of them. Don't take the matter to the authorities, they are too #ing stupid to know how to deal with it.

Originally posted by angrysniper

Originally posted by squarehead666
This is just silly.....As long as you are not a criminal or a loony, you can legally own a gun in the UK.

Just join a shooting club, get some training and then apply for a license for the weapon(s) that you wish to use.

Semi-auto rifles over .22 cal and handguns are completely off the cards, but then our biggest carnivores are the fox and the badger and we never had Cowboys (or Indians).....Other than that the world's your Saiga!

So, in other words you can't own anything that is appropriate for self defense or would challenge the government's ability to exert force upon the populace. Gotcha.

Indeed, I am not sure how effective it would be to say to someone that has ill intent breaking into your house "Excuse me, sir......can you possibly put your dire intentions on hold for a little while. I need to go down to my gun club to go retrieve my firearm. If you can possibly wait to resume your activities until I get back it would very much be appreciated, Thank you."

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by SpearMint
Except the guns still exist there (for reasons I've mentioned many times) so your point is not valid. You seem to be mistaking late gun laws in a small portion of the country that is already drowned in guns for properly implemented gun control.

And that is the point that I've been making all along. Guns still exist there in the hands of criminals in spite of them being banned. All bans do, be they bans of drugs or guns, is remove them from the people who obey the law.

Which is exactly why I say the US government should allow already owned guns, ban the selling of guns and destroy guns when they can (confiscated guns etc.). When things are on par with the UK (an example) then bring in much stricter gun laws. Things will slowly get better, in time. That's better than just standing there rambling about freedom and the constitution while things get worse under the illusion that citizens owning 270,000,000 guns is a good thing and it's some kind of liberty. That's what's happening right now whether you acknowledge it or not.

edit on 16-1-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

No it isn't...that is just your flawed opinion. How would things get better? In both the UK and Australia, crime has gotten worse, not better over time. Disarming the law abiding people has not helped your violent crime or murder one whit.

You mean our low crime rate has gotten slightly worse, for all you know it could be a lot worse than it is now if we had guns. It hasn't gotten worse because we don't have guns.

Edit: Never mind, it's actually gotten better.