Evil or Satan, page 2

reply to post by wildtimes

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And that is where you are no different or better than those you accuse. It is not acceptable for anyone to have a belief other than yours, lest you belittle them. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. If you want respect and to be taken seriously provide some actual documentation to your claims and refrain from the childish name calling (meaning telling people to grow up).

reply to post by wildtimes

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And you tell me, friend, what "pastor", or "preacher" or "priest" is not TRYING TO FORCE THEIR OWN BELIEFS ONTO OTHERS???????

Are you telling that because the pastors,preachers and priest do it, so you'l do it too?
How are you any different then and how can you look down on them.
Do you think that all us poor souls who believe in myths like heaven and hell need to be saved?!!!
You are just an anti-organised religionist believing that you know better.
I'l like to clear that i am not opposed to your opinions, i enjoy them, but to your way in these posts above. It almost seems politely radical and patronising.

reply to post by logical7

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It is so rejoicing seeing that Satan and Hell are so close to eachother. Almost like they are one and the same. Hell, 'kingdom of satan'?, he may have it lolz. thx

reply to post by smithjustinb

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superstar for smithjustinb

reply to post by logical7

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log7, the thing about me and my opinions is that they change....at the moment I am reading Plato's stories about Socrates -- or I should say, re-reading, as it was required coursework when I was an adolescent college kid; what I'm discovering is that there really ARE too many structural and plot similarities that leave no question that the Abrahamic faith "morals" were derived from older, MORE sophisticated thinkers such as Socrates, Confucius, etc.

I have discovered so many nearly verbatim parallels to what Jesus supposedly said that it's astounding. I have watched innumerable documentaries, read and watched interviews with current and former "men of the cloth", spoken to enough of them myself, that my mind is melting in a way...

I'm sorry for sounding abrupt; perhaps I'm growing weary of the rest of the "class" not keeping up; but that's MY BAD, because I know next to none of them/you are going about digging in the same way that I am.

Yes, I still, for now, believe in a Creator - and all that we see is not only THE CREATED, but also a reflection of the nature of the Creator. That may change by sundown, I can't foresee it. Nevertheless, heaven and hell are admittedly fabrications of religious leaders who want control....

that much is pretty much a FACT, in my opinion. But, I might be wrong. Agnostic leaning Deist; with acknowledgement that Nature herself is brutal and without "morals". Whether it's my beloved and affectionate housecat catching and dismembering a small bird on my front stoop, or a tsunami wiping out an entire island and wrecking "mans" structures...
it's not "friendly".

In the wild, every species must look to its survival, every day. Plants, animals alike - all at the mercy of predators or natural disasters/changes such as drought, floods, earthquakes, extreme weather, volcanoes, etc.

Is my housecat "evil"? Are the ocean "evil"? The sun? All can be deadly; none are "evil." The difference between us and animals is that we can "think things through" better in some ways (that we know of)....would my cat care if all of the winter titmice were exterminated? No, because he has me giving him food every day. So - does that make him "Satan" because he doesn't "care" about making sure there are enough birds for the birds to continue to breed and live?

IF we are better than animals -- and that's a GREAT BIG "IF" -- then ought we not to be working toward protecting everything we can? And seeking balance and moderation, taking no more than we need, and must have to survive?

Make no mistake, I think humans actually pretty much SUCK as a species - "suck" everything they can out of the rest of Nature's bounty, leaving behind waste, destruction, death, devastation....

so why don't we just say "people suck" rather than "blaming" some imagined entity who really doesn't need to be there - nothing much would change without the idea.

Just my ramblings - I'll be back later. Again, sorry for the impatient little rant and facepalms above.....

reply to post by chrome413

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You are right, and I apologize. I behaved that way, it was my doing, not "Satan" making me type those things. And I am sorry for not holding back my frustration in a more diplomatic way. as for sources, I've provided more "sources" for people over these many months than I can count ----

does anyone pay them any heed?
I don't know.

Again, I am sorry for being "snippy". But I do not withdraw my premise that Satan is a construct, not a real entity.

Here's a "source" for you that cites some historical factoids: I just found it with a simple youtube search....

Here is Father Spong's view ----

reply to post by wildtimes

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what I'm discovering is that there really ARE too many structural and plot similarities that leave no question that the Abrahamic faith "morals" were derived from older, MORE sophisticated thinkers such as Socrates, Confucius, etc.

how does thinkers reaching similar "morals" become an explanation of Abrahamic faith 'borrowing' from them?
Was the world ever that connected?

Is my housecat "evil"? Are the ocean
"evil"? The sun? All can be deadly;
none are "evil." The difference
between us and animals is that we can
"think things through" better in some ways (that we know of)....would my
cat care if all of the winter titmice were
exterminated? No, because he has me
giving him food every day. So - does
that make him "Satan" because he
doesn't "care" about making sure there are enough birds for the birds to
continue to breed and live?

animals are always in harmony with nature. Its a cat's nature to eat bird. Animals also dont kill for fun. Each animal has a programmed nature and so not responsible/accountable for what they cant comprehend. We on the other hand have more free choice and accountability. I dont say satan is the only reason for evil. Humans dont need help to be evil. Organised religionist also dont blame "satan" for any wrongs as you believe. Satan is not a scapegoat to justify evil behaviour, that would be sick!! Also not a justification to deny accountability.
Why do you think others have such shallow thinking and then also pass jugdements assuming that what you know/understand about organised religions is completely true? Maybe you have a lot to learn.
Also i'l tell you that in his book, Paine just disregarded Qur'an by just assuming it like Bible. Not completely his fault, he had no knowledge of Islam and took hearsay as facts. I wish he had criticised Qur'an too after reading it. Even Dante though Muhammad pbuh broke away from christianity to make his own sect and so put him in hell with punishment of being split from head to waist. Thats the level of ignorance and doesnt take much brain to figure why the church kept people in dark about islam.
I am just asking you to not rely on hearsay and preformed concepts to make opinions about anything.

reply to post by logical7

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Organised religionist also dont blame "satan" for any wrongs as you believe. Satan is not a scapegoat to justify evil behaviour, that would be sick!! Also not a justification to deny accountability.

Which organized religion are you talking about?? The fundamentalists certainly DO BLAME SATAN. Even the Catholics, with their "exorcisms" - and the "casting out of the gay demon" by that evangelical nutcase....

I never said I know everything, friend. Far, far from it. But I do know that innumerable Church Leaders of the Abrahamic faiths, once they leave their "practice" ADMIT that it's made up for control and fear alone.

I know a trifle of what there is to know.
I've mentioned the Bahai Faith several times, and no one ever seems to respond.
Here is what THEY teach about "Satan":
And remember, they are an offshoot of Islam, with a more recent Prophet than Mohammed; and they are SLAUGHTERED by Muslims...

The Bahá'í Faith rejects the concept of "original sin" or any doctrine that teaches people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development.

However, if a person, through his own God-given free will, turns away from this force or fails to make the necessary effort to develop his spiritual capacities, the result is imperfection. `Abdu'l-Bahá said that "evil is imperfection."

The Bahá'í Faith denies the existence of Satan, a devil, or an "evil force." Evil does not have independence existence, but is rather the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat. Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.

Bahá'u'lláh explained that references to Satan in the Scriptures of earlier religions are symbolic and should not be taken literally. Satan is the personification of man's lower nature which can destroy him if it is not brought into harmony with his spiritual nature. There is, in fact, a well-known philosophical problem concerning God's goodness and omnipotence and the possible existence of a Satan. This problem is discussed in some detail in both the writings of Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá.

www.religionfacts.com...

In my explorations as a lay-person interested in the expert theologians' understandings of the Scriptures of the world,
Baha'i is the CLOSEST THING to "a right religion" that there is, next to Buddhism.

I posted two video clips - no comment on those? You think Bishop Spong is just spewing "hearsay"? Just watch his video....it's not even 18 minutes long - he is every bit as LEARNED and CREDIBLE as anyone out there; but because he refutes something you "believe with no proof", even goes so far as to specifically explain how it all got twisted around....he is "wrong"?

What are some basic teachings of the Baha'i Faith?

While retaining the basic spiritual teachings of all the Messengers of God, the Baha'i Faith brings new social principles relevant to the needs of a global society: the oneness of humanity, equality of men and women, the abolition of prejudice, the harmony of science and religion and the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth

From another source : www.bahai.us...

Why are Baha'is persecuted in Iran?

The Baha'i Faith, Iran’s largest minority religion, is not accepted as a legitimate religion in that country because Baha’u’llah, the Founder of the Baha’i Faith, appeared after Muhammad. Muhammad is designated in the Qur'an, the Muslim Holy Book, as the Seal of the Prophets (along with other titles) and Muslims have interpreted this verse to mean that Muhammad is the final prophet of God. Therefore, any claim of prophethood after Muhammad is considered blasphemous by the Muslim religious leaders.

Although Baha'u'llah accepted that Muhammad is indeed the Seal of the Prophets just as the Qur'an stated, He explained that the Qur'an itself clarifies that the title does not mean that God will never again reveal Himself to mankind. Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah is the most recent Manifestation of God in a never-ending progression of revelations from God that includes Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Christ, and Muhammad.

Consequently, Baha’is, who number more than 300,000 in Iran have been targets of discrimination and violence in that country since the religion began there in the mid-1800s. More than 200 Baha’is were killed in Iran between 1978 and 1998, the majority by execution. Thousands more were imprisoned.

They don't even have clergy; they consider that in this age of education, there is no reason for a "special class" like that.

Is there a way to cure or limit the spread of demonic disease? NO, not demonic possession, which is a vicious myth used to afflict the powerless, but the BELIEF that actual Devils and Hell exists. A belief that fuels and foments the sort of vile actions of the African priest, as well as the vile acts actions and insane rituals that continue in this country- practiced by a certain enclave of fundamentalist whackos.(In his chapter, ‘The Fundamentalist Fringe’ (op. cit. p. 227), Peter Stanford recites how Josiah Strong’s perverted Devil- obsessed form of Christianity has come into our relatively modern times and wreaked havoc on the gullible and mentally vulnerable. )

There's another argument against it. ^^^ From here

reply to post by wildtimes

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Which organized religion are you talking about?? The fundamentalists certainly DO BLAME SATAN. Even the Catholics, with their "exorcisms" - and the "casting out of the gay demon" by that evangelical nutcase....

i am talking about islam but yes the example you gave is sure nutcase!
.
And about ba'hai faith, they too are nutcase to be very frank.
They cant agree with Qur'an and then claim bahaulla as prophet!!
Seal of prophet/last prophet/last messenger is Muhammad pbuh. They really twist it to claim bahaulla as prophet.
Whatever philosophy they have is already in islam.

reply to post by logical7

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Okay, see, what I'm gathering from your various threads and posts over the past few weeks is this:

You believe the Quran, in its entirety, and that Mohammed was the last prophet. Anything that refutes the Quran is wrong.

This is NO DIFFERENT than Christians who say Jesus was the savior and every word in the Bible is true, or as in the Catholic Christians' belief, that the pope is God's mouthpiece on Earth, and anything that is not in the Bible is false and wrong.

Is that the case? If I am mistaken, please, by all means, correct me;

if I am NOT mistaken about your stance and point of view, then there is no way to ever have a real dialogue with you.

Unless you are willing to SET ASIDE at least SOME of the myths, legends, beliefs of Islam just for long enough to LISTEN to other points of view, or to acknowledge that some parts of it might be in error, there is no real conversation here.

If you are simply trying to prove "Islam" is the best and only and truest religion - using your Scripture, and the man Mohammed, as the definitive truth -- and believing that anything that disagrees with ANY of the Quran is illegitimate BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE, then there's no way you will ever be able to agree with me on any of this...

if anything I think doesn't go AGAINST Islam, then it's okay to explore? The first mention or hint that it disagrees with Islam makes it useless and NOT worth considering?

It seems you willingly looked into Paine; and into Reincarnation -- but now I wonder - were you only interested in the parts of them that do not REFUTE Islam in any way?

Tell me, logical7, do you believe you will be killed (or should be killed, or imprisoned) if you renounce Islam as just another fabricated set of ancient mythologies designed to explain natural phenomena?

Did you feel "sinful" reading the Deist works of Paine? Or what?

If he had addressed the Quran specifically, as he did the Old Testament and the New Testament, (both of which existed prior to the Quran), would you have paid heed?

Or would you have called him a demon-possessed liar? Or a fool?

EDIT to clarify my questions.

and to add,
this makes me sad.

reply to post by logical7

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Whatever philosophy they have is already in islam.

And it's also in some branches of Christianity. And those philosophies existed before either Jesus of Nazareth OR Mohammed.

How do you explain "jihad", then? The "murdering" of those who have embraced The Baha'i faith?, which has its own Scripture, too, you know.....

how do you know their "prophet" wasn't more correct than "Mohammed"? Or that Socrates wasn't more correct than Jesus? If I go by your apparent method, I have to choose ONE PROPHET and dismiss anything that disagrees that THAT ONE PROPHET IS THE RIGHT, ONLY, AND LAST ONE. And I simply don't believe that is true.

reply to post by wildtimes

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I obviously believe in islam but not just because i was born in it. It makes most sense. I dont expect that it makes sense to others and i like to discuss with this basis.

Tell me, logical7, do you believe you
will be killed (or should be killed, or
imprisoned) if you renounce Islam as
just another fabricated set of ancient mythologies designed to explain
natural phenomena?
Did you feel "sinful" reading the Deist
works of Paine? Or what?
If he had addressed the Quran
specifically, as he did the Old Testament and the New Testament,
(both of which existed prior to the
Quran), would you have paid heed?
Or would you have called him a
demon-possessed liar? Or a fool?

i dont believe apostasy should have death penalty. I am however not inclined to do it even a bit. I enjoyed reading the deist works of Paine. I paid heed but also looked for errors he would have made. I wouldnt call anyone a fool or demon-possessed liar. He did a good job to explain his views, i actually look for anything that will challenge my faith. The tougher the better. I wish he had criticised Qur'an. Qur'an wishes that actually.

reply to post by wildtimes

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If I go by your apparent method, I have to choose ONE PROPHET and dismiss anything that disagrees that THAT ONE PROPHET IS THE RIGHT, ONLY, AND LAST ONE. And I simply don't believe that is true.

thats not my method!! Again you assume what i must be thinking.
Firstly, not everyone who claims to be a prophet is one. 'For you it doesnt matter eitherway' but not for people who really believe in prophets.
Secondly, islam doesnt say to choose one prophet but all, right till the real last one.
Islam says there was supposed to be one simple religion, religion of One God, religion of truth and justice, a religion of empathy and compassion. Islam says people abused religion for their little gains and deviated people from the right path. That common denominator that you are looking is this simple religion. The labels dont matter, people have attached their ego to those labels, call me a christian if you must as i do follow Jesus pbuh too. right now religion/labels is nothing more than extension of ego and its well fed. 'my religion', 'my country' etc. They dont really care about religion/country except the fact that its 'their.' and they are obviously the best.
When you see this degradation of increasing ego and greed, rather than putting the blame on ego and greed of people, you just start criticising the religion/s and propose eradication of organised religions. That according to me is not the best logic.
I hope i cleared my stand.

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