I pledged an oath, so what do I do?

reply to post by Dustytoad

You're right of course. The technical order of loyalty is to the Constitution above all else. I say it that way and hope, as a civilian, that isn't how enlisted men SEE this because I don't trust enlisted men to make their own individual judgement of what is or isn't Constitutional. I'd like to think if the brass above them decided to move in the National interests....they could call upon enlisted to support that move IN SUPPORT of the Constitution ...but not on their own volition.

When I went up for the Army in 1995 I scored pretty well on the ASVAB. Enough to be proud of and we'll leave it there but to say a medical condition didn't agree so it didn't help me much. The guy I went in with and tested together with for a buddy program idea scored a GQ of 48. Basically, he was very smart in street sense, but I'd have doubted he could read and comprehend even the first 10 of the Bill of Rights without a tutor and multiple read throughs.

He was a hell of a nice guy too.... Not a thing wrong with him. Just dumb as a box of rocks and just what the Army was happy to take in..for basic infantry of course. lol... he didn't get a long list to choose from. So... That's why I hope loyalty is to the Officers above them before their own idea of what is Constitutional. It may NOT go how we'd like that to go in their own decisions.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Leadership knows no rank….

Young NCO’s (for the most part) are just as sharp as or sharper than any other 20something out there. You grow up fast in the military….you have no choice. I had more responsibility as a 23 year old NCO than most kids that age at the time. You'd be surprised how quickly the 'less informed' will follow a leader standing against an unlawful order. When it's WRONG its WRONG and people know it.

I know for a fact there are PLENTY of young active duty military NCO’s and officers who would absolutely NEVER take action against American citizens on US soil…if that is the fear. Same goes for LE.

Very few people in this world would be stupid enough to consider firing on innocent American citizens a lawful order.

what if someone needed help?
to see if they had back up?

reply to post by iSHRED


there is no such thing as an "oath"

its what you believe in deep down, you create your own oath...

so what are you telling me..that before you "swore" you wouldn't have upheld and defended the constitution?..

many so called "oath" holders have violated the very thing they swore to protect.

so just because i never swore on anything does that mean im not willing to do the same thing you swore to do?

give me a break and cut it out with this whole oath crap..just do whats right and what you know to be right deep down, technically you swore that oath to the corrupt us government and all it represents...

i say we create the PATRIOT OATH and swear to that

reply to post by iSHRED


Great question... easy answer. Your oath is pledged to the Constitution. Yes, within the oath you pledge to obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed over you, but they are secondary to the Constitution. I upheld this oath for 13 years on active duty, proudly and honorably, and I continue to uphold it as a civilian. You are never relieved of this duty, until God relieves you of it upon your death. Like you, the President and the officers appointed over you took an oath to support and defend the Constitution. The common denominator is the Constitution. Your oath to follow orders assumes that the orders are Constitutional, and if they are not then it is your DUTY to not follow them, regardless of the personal consequences you may face.

well assuming your a lower level military member, you will never be faced with an illegal order. You will be faced with is seemingly day to day work. Only the higher ups will see the big picture coming together, and that big picture will be the order that should be disobeyed. The higher level officers are the ones who should be asking themselves this question.

Good to hear another military member thinking the same. I got 1 year left until i get out, so i hopefully wont be faced with this situation

reply to post by k1k1to


There will be times when one is confused, more so the young and soldier, taught under imposed authoritarian rule, but still humanely link to family, relatives and friends, the very ones that he signed up, join the military to protect, for they are what when combined, represents society and no man or woman alone can protect even himself in the face of multiple threats.

The only way out of confusion is to share, discuss and debate with others, not just those whom share similar views, but rather, the opposite views regardless if it tears up your belief system, to gain better insights. It is only through such sharing then can one gain a better perspective, and not become a tool of another, for one is responsible for oneself, for credit and its consequences.

Only you alone can live your life.

Emotions are what that often moves us, but logic and reason rules our hearts and minds. Many will try to use the emotional blackmail, using lies and falsehood such as Tokyo Rose during WW2, or today's stepping over the dead bodies of children, men and women as a trump card to win converts to their side, disregarding the realities and truth that it had been an insane man at work, and not the tool, that slaughtered, as in most cases of mass slaughterings.

You have free will, and being a Marine means more than just being another grumpy REMF grunt, but a courageous thinking and capable soldier with an illustrious history that dates back many years, espacially during WW2 and the Vietnam War.

It is your choice on which side you will stand - family, relatives, friends and nation..or support the lone/minority decisions of leader who is only an equally flawed mortal like the rest of humans, fully capable of making mistakes or selfish decisions.

Soldiers are not robots, but made of flesh and blood and no man is born out of a rock.

Semper Fi.

What came first.... The Constitution of the United States of America or Obama?

I think that about sums it up.

Originally posted by k1k1to
reply to post by iSHRED

 

there is no such thing as an "oath"

its what you believe in deep down, you create your own oath...

so what are you telling me..that before you "swore" you wouldn't have upheld and defended the constitution?..

many so called "oath" holders have violated the very thing they swore to protect.

so just because i never swore on anything does that mean im not willing to do the same thing you swore to do?

give me a break and cut it out with this whole oath crap..just do whats right and what you know to be right deep down, technically you swore that oath to the corrupt us government and all it represents...

i say we create the PATRIOT OATH and swear to that

in one reply you managed to both trash the oath and then turn around and say we need another oath. pick one maybe?

to the OP, you swore an oath just like countless others before you. you will know an unlawful order when you hear it. the Corps' history is full of Marines who refused to carry out orders they felt were unlawful. some got hammered for it, some were applauded for it. its a judgement call. JJ DID TIEBUCKLE my friend. Justice and Judgement are right there at the beginning. be just, and exercise judgement in deciding what is just.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101




I understand what you are saying, whatever it takes for a person to do the right thing is alright with me, whether "upholding" an oath or doing what is naturally right, it doesn't matter im on that team.

i know many "civies" that would run circles around any soldier any time any where, also just because you received some sort of training 5,10,15,20 + years ago doesn't mean that you still poses those skills today or that they will magically come back..

it takes practice,dedication, and time to be the best that you can be.i respect all people that follow the righteous path...not just because they received some sort of special training, remember you bleed just like i do and die as well. a lot of military folk i know seem to forget this basic law of organic life, we all have weaknesses and we all die.

you dont have to go too far to get an example of a shtf, or civil war or collapse scenario...

just look at hurricane katrina footage...and all the "oath" holders kicking in Americans doors arresting them and taking their guns. many even going as far as saying they would kill an american if they had to, mind you this coming from an AMERICAN soldier.

like i said before, the oath is really directed to the current government and its military branch. what do you think would have happened to those soldiers if they would have said" sir i dont think i want to kick down my fellow Americans door, drag them into the street, place them in cuffs, and take their guns"...answer that

seeker:

just as an FYI, a substantial number (i won't go so far as to say all, because thats not the case) of those who had their doors kicked in and their weapons taken had already used those weapons. I was there. we got shot at by the very people we were trying to rescue. sorry, but I don't feel bad for disarming somebody who thinks its a good idea to shoot AT me and my men to try and get our attention. if you're dumb enough to think popping off rounds at me is the best way to get my attention, you're too dumb to have a firearm. the MSM is too focused on the government response (a mess, i won't even attempt to debate that point because i agree) and all the tragedies that occured during that operation to talk about some of the things the residents were doing to themselves, each other, and those coming to help them.

The problem with this is...

Not every enlisted soldier is a Constitutional schollar. Some don't even know how many amendments there are (there are plenty of civilians that are JUST as guilty).

To place a Constitutional decision onto the shoulders of a 19 year old enlisted infantry soldier, who may have done poorly in highschool is .... problematic.

Some may very well want to protect the Constitution, but have little knowledge of what it says OR past judicial precidents involving it.

It really doesn't mean much in the way of keeping our soldiers "doing the right thing" -- because a twisted commanding officer can pretty much justify and lie about the legality of any order.

ETA:

Example: "Fire on those people!" ... "Sir, those are American civilians!" ... "They are domestic threats, and as such, threaten your country and your Constitution. You took an oath to protect your country and Constitution -- now fire!"

See how easy it would be to convince a young NCO that shooting Americans would be acceptable?

The oath, while heartwarming and nice can be pushed aside just as easily as it can be taken.

reply to post by pheonix358


What link is that, none of my links are broke....

I just checked them like three times, and I am confused as tot he link you mean.

The idea of "I was just following orders" was nullified at the Nuremberg Trials. This was largely done by the US.

reply to post by pheonix358


Our soldiers were also just following orders when the Bush administration declared war on Iraq under false pretenses. So in actuality, there should have been war crimes lodged against Bush and his cronies. What's even worse, they changed the mission when the facts became known that Powell's evidence was all just smoke and mirrors.

If we were not a super power, government officials in the U.S. would have been held accountable. So it's true, that people in power are under a different set of laws than the rest of us.

reply to post by iSHRED


I myself when I considered the Oath.Reflected on the Posse Comitatus Act of 1873.In it's entirety,and origional form.Not to include admendments,pushed through recently in a haze of fear,per the (LOL) The Patriot Act.

The real question and we disscused this many times after Tiananmem Square.What would you and those you served with do.If ordered to attack your fellow countrymen?

I read that at that embassy thing someone was calling out for help and the direct order was to "Stand Down" now why would that happen..... sometimes calling for help gets you nowhere ...right. This due to the fact that there should be comradery and others willing to see injustices and voice their opinions about them.

Originally posted by SeenAlot
Uniform Code of MilitaryJustice

But let's say you, Joe Dogface wants to bring charges against the president. First off, I see no precedent or by-law for that. It would be unique. Tho, in reading the above article and this one by Wiki it's not impossible. But would create a power play for the presidency pro-tem. I also would have to say could be held in a public court.

When I say "public court", the way I read this, is that as a GI you can bring about charges of a court marshal against those both above you and below you in rank. The court itself is supposed to be held in front of five, three or in the most extreme situations seen by a single judge of higher authority than the accused. According to these two links, there is no higher authority that the PUSA.

I don't believe the soldier has the obligation to "bring charges against the [P]resident", especially, if that soldier is following his oath and with that realizes the President has given orders that go against the original and highest law of the nation (of which, even the President cannot legally dismiss) which is the Constitution.

In this case, the President has made it very clear what the soldier is to do. After all, isn't it the President, himself, that decided that in the case of a terrorist (foreign or domestic) he can be judge, jury, and executioner? I believe that action speaks for itself and the soldier knows what to do.

The President believes that a terrorist (foreign or domestic) does not have the right to a court or trial. I think he may be right.

reply to post by iSHRED


I just asked my husband this question, who will he defend? The answer unnerved me.

Maybe I will be able to discuss it in a little while.

Originally posted by WeRpeons

The idea of "I was just following orders" was nullified at the Nuremberg Trials. This was largely done by the US.

reply to post by pheonix358

 

Our soldiers were also just following orders when the Bush administration declared war on Iraq under false pretenses. So in actuality, there should have been war crimes lodged against Bush and his cronies. What's even worse, they changed the mission when the facts became known that Powell's evidence was all just smoke and mirrors.

If we were not a super power, government officials in the U.S. would have been held accountable. So it's true, that people in power are under a different set of laws than the rest of us.

While that order or series of orders may have been morally objectionable, They did not violate the constitution. You attacked another country. The excuse was a lie but that is often the case in warfare.

P

Originally posted by ADVISOR
reply to post by pheonix358

 

What link is that, none of my links are broke....

I just checked them like three times, and I am confused as tot he link you mean.

This one.

www.history.army.mil...

Firefox reports it can not find the server.

No biggie

P