a former Evangelical "born again" explains why Protestantism isn't true

Originally posted by adjensen

You're still not answering the question

I answered your question, just not the answer you wanted to read.

Originally posted by adjensen

you said earlier that, when Jesus spoke, it was God speaking.

When Jesus spoke, it was the Son of God speaking, God in flesh and humbled as a man.

Originally posted by adjensen

That doesn't really answer the question that I asked you, and you missed the line before 19-20:

It does answer your question. God was in Christ, reconciling us to Himself. He was also in heaven and descending like a dove (not an actual dove) at the same time. God can multi-task. No non-Biblical doctrine needs to be created to explain it.

Originally posted by adjensen

See the word "by" there? If your claims were correct, that word would be "as", not "by".

Maybe you don't fully understand my claims. Verse 18 does not change the fact that God was in Christ.

Originally posted by adjensen

What are you talking about? I gave you quotes from four people, all of whom died before 200AD, which clearly refer to God the Father and Jesus as separate individuals.

Those you mention say nothing about a trinity god, three gods/persons, nor separate individuals. Plus, other statements of the writers are very oneness. Also the writers have other doctrines which trinitarians love to attack Apostolics for. For example, Ignatius taught that God suffered.

"The passion [suffering] of my God" (Ignatius)

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

You're still not answering the question

I answered your question, just not the answer you wanted to read.

No, because this:

God looked down from heaven at His Son, Himself manifest in the flesh and humbled as a man.

Doesn't answer the question that I asked you, unless you want to say that God existed in two separate persons at that moment. Is that what you're saying?

It does answer your question. God was in Christ, reconciling us to Himself. He was also in heaven and descending like a dove (not an actual dove) at the same time. God can multi-task.

Multi-tasking is, by definition, doing multiple things at the same time, not being multiple people at the same time.

I think you'd better go back to "Reckart 101" -- either you're violating his rules about Trinitarianism, or you're doing a terrible job of explaining it.

Those you mention say nothing about a trinity god, three gods/persons, nor separate individuals.

They clearly, no interpretation needed, speak of Father and Son being two separate persons. That violates your "oneness".

For example, Ignatius taught that God suffered.

That is a standard Orthodox teaching -- God, in the person of Christ, suffered. So I'm not sure what relevance you think it has.

Originally posted by adjensen

Doesn't answer the question that I asked you, unless you want to say that God existed in two separate persons at that moment. Is that what you're saying?

One God, two roles, not persons.

Originally posted by adjensen

Multi-tasking is, by definition, doing multiple things at the same time, not being multiple people at the same time.

God is not multiple people.

Originally posted by adjensen

They clearly, no interpretation needed, speak of Father and Son being two separate persons. That violates your "oneness".

I saw mention of Father and Son, but no mention of God being separate persons.

Originally posted by adjensen

That is a standard Orthodox teaching -- God, in the person of Christ, suffered. So I'm not sure what relevance you think it has.

Incorrect.

According to classical theology it is possible for Christ to suffer only in virtue of his human nature. The divine nature is incapable of suffering.

Patripassianism

reply to post by FlyersFan


Ooo how i do love this question. The Lords love must be just like the love of a mere human. Just because the lord is a loving father does not mean he cant condemn you to punishment. I love how you Catholics and new age Christians for some reason think that the Lord has to follow some sorta rules or human guidelines on how to act. But yet for some reason we decide what he can and cannot do?

I don't know if you have read the book of Job. If not let me narrow it down for you. Starting from chapter 40 onward the Lord tells Job when he questions him on why he has forsaken him. Basically in a nutshell he tells Job, who the hell are you to tell me what to do? I who created the heavens and the earth?


But hey obviously the Lord doesn't care what you do.

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens, which they have loved and served and which they have followed and consulted and worshiped. They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground.

I don't know about you but both of those seem pretty bad.

reply to post by vaelamin


IF this Lord is Jealous... Who exactly would he be Jealous of?

Perhaps he's Jealous because he knows there are others like him?

Its amazing to me that a so called "God" can have such petty human emotions...

Its a little sad actually...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by vaelamin

 

IF this Lord is Jealous... Who exactly would he be Jealous of?

Perhaps he's Jealous because he knows there are others like him?



:/

Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

If you would read you would learn who he is jealous of.

Its amazing to me that a so called "God" can have such petty human emotions... Its a little sad actually...

Its amazing to me how someone can think that those emotions belong to humans even though they were created by a God who says he is the alpha and omega the beginning and the end. The only thing sad is your lack of understanding the obvious.

Read the bible pal you'll get it.

reply to post by vaelamin


LOL...

Thanks I needed a good chuckle...

I like the way Jim McCrea helps to explain in our human and limited way, the Trinity. An excerpt, you can read the entire writing here:

sites.google.com...

Jim begins by sharing the greatest mystery of Christianity is the Trinity and the next is the Incarnation.

~ ~ ~


...The logical consequence of this, is that when the persons are considered absolutely and in themselves, apart from their relations, they are identical. This means that they are the same being, which means that they are the same God, which means that there is only one God. The persons are identical with respect to being, and distinct with respect to relation. Another way to say it, is that they are identical with respect to "what" they are, but distinct with respect to "who" they are. This explains how each of the distinct persons can be God, and yet there is only one God.

The second paradox to be explained here, is that of how two natures (human and divine) can exist in the one person who is Jesus Christ.

The nature of God, according to the theologians is to be both infinite and simple. He is infinite, in that there is no limit to his being or his attributes. He is infinite goodness, intelligence, and power (among other things). He is simple in that there is no composition in God. He is not as a human, in being composed of different parts. His simplicity is absolute. His various attributes are identical with his being. The intellect, will, power, and being of God are all the same thing, and his essence is identical to his existence. This is true of all three persons of the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. How can it be that the Son, with these attributes of God, can be man at the same time?...

We can know, it's been revealed, God is Trinitarian:

"And forthwith coming up out of the water he saw the Heavens opened and the Spirit as a Dove descending and remaining on Him. And there came a Voice from Heaven; 'Thou art My Beloved Son; in Thee I am well pleased'." St. Mark 1:10-11

The above verses reveal GOD the Father and Son, the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity; Jesus coming out of the water and His Father's 'Voice from Heaven'. The Holy Spirit, Who is the Third Person, is also revealed in the form of a 'Dove', descending from Heaven, onto Jesus. Scripture has now identified the Blessed Trinity, meaning Three...

Originally posted by colbe

The above verses reveal GOD the Father and Son, the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity; Jesus coming out of the water and His Father's 'Voice from Heaven'. The Holy Spirit, Who is the Third Person, is also revealed in the form of a 'Dove', descending from Heaven, onto Jesus. Scripture has now identified the Blessed Trinity, meaning Three...

You are viewing God as not all powerful, not present everywhere, and ignoring that the Son of God was a man.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

The above verses reveal GOD the Father and Son, the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity; Jesus coming out of the water and His Father's 'Voice from Heaven'. The Holy Spirit, Who is the Third Person, is also revealed in the form of a 'Dove', descending from Heaven, onto Jesus. Scripture has now identified the Blessed Trinity, meaning Three...

You are viewing God as not all powerful, not present everywhere, and ignoring that the Son of God was a man.

What happened to your usual question, where is that in Scripture? You left off half my post, the part with a Scripture verse about the Blessed Trinity, all three~!

"We can know, it's been revealed, God is Trinitarian:

And forthwith coming up out of the water he saw the Heavens opened and the Spirit as a Dove descending and remaining on Him. And there came a Voice from Heaven; 'Thou art My Beloved Son; in Thee I am well pleased. Mark 1:10-11"


The underlined is your opinion of my beliefs, they're not mine. Mark 1:10-11 shows how powerful God is, only God can open the Heavens to speak and appear. And truejew, Our Lord, Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. BOTH. Two mysteries of the faith to be believed, the Trinity and the Incarnation.

When you are shown during the "awakening", then will you believe?

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
1. Mary was not devine. She did not remain a virgin and should not be worshipped or prayed to.

The Catholic church doese NOT say that Mary is divine.
The Catholic church is VERY clear that mary is not to be worshipped.
Scripture is clear - we are supposed to pray for each other and ask each other for prayers. It is also clear that those who have 'died' before us can indeed hear us and pray to God. Therefore, it is perfectly fine to speak to Mary and ask her to pray to God for us.

2. Peter was not above the other apostles and is not a "pope" at all.

Matthew 16:18 says differently.

3. Much of scripture was thrown out at the council of Nicea to put together what is now known as the Holy Bible.

No. What was thrown out were those writings that the council decided were NOT authentic or worthy of making it into the bible. If you want to see what was tossed (tossed for good reason) then go read the Gnostic 'gospels'.

There are about 95 more that are enumerated here:
www.luther.de...

Your source is full of errors put out by some anti-catholic Lutherans who didn't bother to find out what the Catholic church actually believes in before making their list.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
I have some issues with the Catholic Church. There are things that are absolutely, positively created by men. However, I have many, many, many more issues with the born again evangelicals. (Not Protestants, the non-denominational groups that are of recent invention)

The issues I have with the Catholic Church are
1. Mary was not devine. She did not remain a virgin and should not be worshipped or prayed to.
2. Peter was not above the other apostles and is not a "pope" at all.
3. Much of scripture was thrown out at the council of Nicea to put together what is now known as the Holy Bible.
4. The Vatican is a government entity with untold wealth and is rooted in this world, not in Heaven.
5. A great deal of knowledge and wealth is hoarded and kept from the rest of the world as well as the members of their church.
There are about 95 more that are enumerated here:
www.luther.de...

Even with these issues, they are far above and far better than the new age evangelical groups out there. These groups are founded on stupidity and ignorance and I have no respect for them at all.

HSJ, hi,

To help with your question #3, we all agree the Bible didn't drop from Heaven complete, someone had to
decide of the many early writings, which were divinely inspired. Pope Damasus did by his God given authority.
The Canon has not changed.


~ ~ ~

...For the first 300 years of Christianity, there was no Bible as we know it today. Christians had the Old Testament Septuagint, and literally hundreds of other books from which to choose. The Catholic Church realized early on that she had to decide which of these books were inspired and which ones weren't. The debates raged between theologians, Bishops, and Church Fathers, for several centuries as to which books were inspired and which ones weren't. In the meantime, several Church Councils or Synods, were convened to deal with the matter, notably, Rome in 382, Hippo in 393, and Carthage in 397 and 419. The debates sometimes became bitter on both sides. One of the most famous was between St. Jerome, who felt the seven books were not canonical, and St. Augustine who said they were. Protestants who write about this will invariably mention St. Jerome and his opposition, and conveniently omit the support of St. Augustine. I must point out here that Church Father's writings are not infallible statements, and their arguments are merely reflections of their own private opinions. When some say St. Jerome was against the inclusion of the seven books, they are merely showing his personal opinion of them. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. However, A PERSONS PRIVATE OPINION DOES NOT CHANGE THE TRUTH AT ALL. There are always three sides to every story, this side, that side, and the side of truth. Whether Jerome's position, or Augustine's position was the correct position, had to be settled by a third party, and that third party was the Catholic Church.

Now the story had a dramatic change, as the Pope stepped in to settle the matter. In concurrence with the opinion of St. Augustine, and being prompted by the Holy Spirit, Pope St. Damasus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, issued a decree appropriately called, "The Decree of Damasus", in which he listed the canonical books of both the Old and New Testaments. He then asked St. Jerome to use this canon and to write a new Bible translation which included an Old Testament of 46 books, which were all in the Septuagint, and a New Testament of 27 books, 73 Books.

ROME HAD SPOKEN, THE ISSUE WAS SETTLED.

St. Jerome acquiesced under obedience (Hebrews 13:17) and began the translation, and completed it in 404 A.D.. In 405, his new Latin Vulgate* was published for the first time.

*The word "vulgate" means, "The common language of the people, or the vernacular"....


home.inreach.com...

Originally posted by truejew
You are viewing God as not all powerful, not present everywhere, and ignoring that the Son of God was a man.

Jesus ... fully human and fully God. He is BOTH. Scripture is very clear on that.

reply to post by vaelamin


Like I said .. what kind of 'loving' God would send people to hell for having their main day of worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. He'd be an S.O.B.

Either god is a real P**** .... or He's a nice guy who is misrepresented in scripture.

IF a 'loving God' would send people to hell simply for getting togther with others and loving and worshiping him on Sunday instead of Saturday .. then He's evil IMHO.

Originally posted by vaelamin
Just because the lord is a loving father does not mean he cant condemn you to punishment.

I didn't say He couldn't. I said that he'd be a real S.O.B. to punish people for getting together and loving and worshipping him on Sunday rather than Saturday.

I love how you Catholics and new age Christians for some reason think that the Lord has to follow some sorta rules or human guidelines on how to act. But yet for some reason we decide what he can and cannot do?.

:shk: You entirely missed what the point is ....

I never said He couldn't ... I said He'd be a real B****** if He did that.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
I have some issues with the Catholic Church. There are things that are absolutely, positively created by men. However, I have many, many, many more issues with the born again evangelicals. (Not Protestants, the non-denominational groups that are of recent invention)

The issues I have with the Catholic Church are
1. Mary was not devine. She did not remain a virgin and should not be worshipped or prayed to.

HSJ and FlyersFan,

To add to FlyersFan, a quote from the Catechism about Mary. These few paragraphs are so beautiful. I had never read them until yesterday. There's a link, read the Catechism in a Year. You read a few paragraphs
at a time every day. They include if you click on a link within, the related Scripture references in the Catechism.
If someone would like to read the Catechism this way: www.flocknote.com...

HSJ, at the end of your question are the two words..."prayed to", this term is misunderstood by non-Catholics.
I ask you to PRAY TO God for me. Catholics ask Mary to PRAY TO God for them. Same thing but think of Mary's influence. You can ask her intercession to God too, she is everyone's mother. Speak to her in prayer.

~ ~ ~

IV. THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME

"Rejoice, you who are full of grace"

721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom."

In her, the "wonders of God" that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested:

722 The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty. It was quite correct for the angel Gabriel to greet her as the "Daughter of Zion": "Rejoice." It is the thanksgiving of the whole People of God, and thus of the Church, which Mary in her canticle lifts up to the Father in the Holy Spirit while carrying within her the eternal Son.

723 In Mary, the Holy Spirit fulfills the plan of the Father's loving goodness. Through the Holy Spirit, the Virgin conceives and gives birth to the Son of God. By the Holy Spirit's power and her faith, her virginity became uniquely fruitful.

724 In Mary, the Holy Spirit manifests the Son of the Father, now become the Son of the Virgin. She is the burning bush of the definitive theophany. Filled with the Holy Spirit she makes the Word visible in the humility of his flesh. It is to the poor and the first representatives of the gentiles that she makes him known.

725 Finally, through Mary, the Holy Spirit begins to bring men, the objects of God's merciful love, into communion with Christ. And the humble are always the first to accept him: shepherds, magi, Simeon and Anna, the bride and groom at Cana, and the first disciples.

726 At the end of this mission of the Spirit, Mary became the Woman, the new Eve ("mother of the living"), the mother of the "whole Christ." As such, she was present with the Twelve, who "with one accord devoted themselves to prayer," at the dawn of the "end time" which the Spirit was to inaugurate on the morning of Pentecost with the manifestation of the Church.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by truejew
You are viewing God as not all powerful, not present everywhere, and ignoring that the Son of God was a man.

Jesus ... fully human and fully God. He is BOTH. Scripture is very clear on that.

Yes, He is. However the Spirit, in flesh, humbled Himself as a man. God, in flesh, was in the role of a man, not in the role of God.

Philippians 2:5-8 (KJV)
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

reply to post by colbe


You have no Scripture teaching God to be three persons. All we have is Scriptures that say one God. Therefore it is incorrect to assume a trinity is in that Scripture and that it is not simply one God working in three roles.