Should Churchill be seen as a warmonger and partial escalator of WW2?

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posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:34 AM
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reply to post by OpenSky
 


Really?

trove.nla.gov.au...




posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by OpenSky
reply to post by Alfie1
 


Thats because there were no British spitfires over Darwin.


So you are ignoring a historical account published by your own government :-

www.vrb.gov.au...

Any good reason for that ? apart from you not wanting it to be true obviously.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by HelenConway

Originally posted by OpenSky
reply to post by Zaphod58
 


Yes I agree, the British centric historians don't want the truth released.


No offence opensky but you keep referring to 'us' when your family were not even in australia in WW2.
So why are you insinuating that they were ? BTW calling us traitors is the same as calling us cowards.

You should read about the wars and stop trolling.


My family has been in Australia since the 1860s, from my mothers side. My grandfathers side who was Polish came after the war who then met my grandmother.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OpenSky
 


Really?

trove.nla.gov.au...


Flown by Australians, whats your point?



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by Alfie1

Originally posted by OpenSky
reply to post by Alfie1
 


Thats because there were no British spitfires over Darwin.


So you are ignoring a historical account published by your own government :-

www.vrb.gov.au...

Any good reason for that ? apart from you not wanting it to be true obviously.


It claims only once that a "British" fighter plane helped defend Darwins skies, other than that it offers no account nor does it go into any detail about it.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:45 AM
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reply to post by OpenSky
 


Flown by both the RAAF and the RAF. You conveniently leave out the help that England did send, just to rip on them. Why is that?


An outstanding work. In 1943 the legendary Spitfire fighter was employed in the defence of the Darwin area by No.1 Fighter Wing, RAAF. Made up of one British and two Australian squadrons,

avonmorebooks.com.au...


No. 1 Wing was an Australian Flying Corps (AFC) and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) wing active during World War I and World War II. The wing was established on 1 September 1917 as the 1st Training Wing and commanded the AFC's pilot training squadrons in England until April 1919, when it was disbanded. It was reformed on 7 October 1942 as a fighter unit comprising two Australian and one British flying squadrons equipped with Supermarine Spitfire aircraft, and a mobile fighter sector headquarters. The wing provided air defence to Darwin and several other key Allied bases in northern Australia until the end of the war, and was again disbanded in October 1945.

en.wikipedia.org...


Subordinate units:
452 Squadron
457 Squadron
548 Squadron RAF
549 Squadron RAF

54 Squadron
5/105 FCU
7 RSU Return and Salvage Unit

trove.nla.gov.au...
edit on 1/17/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by OpenSky

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OpenSky
 


Really?

trove.nla.gov.au...


Flown by Australians, whats your point?


You obviously didn't read the article. It says " In addition to Australian pilots, trained under the Empire Air Scheme, the machines are being flown by seasoned pilots of the Royal Air Force."

So the point is that British planes, ground crews and pilots were sent to Australia when you claim Britain did nothing to help.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OpenSky
 


Flown by both the RAAF and the RAF. You conveniently leave out the help that England did send, just to rip on them. Why is that?


An outstanding work. In 1943 the legendary Spitfire fighter was employed in the defence of the Darwin area by No.1 Fighter Wing, RAAF. Made up of one British and two Australian squadrons,

avonmorebooks.com.au...


No. 1 Wing was an Australian Flying Corps (AFC) and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) wing active during World War I and World War II. The wing was established on 1 September 1917 as the 1st Training Wing and commanded the AFC's pilot training squadrons in England until April 1919, when it was disbanded. It was reformed on 7 October 1942 as a fighter unit comprising two Australian and one British flying squadrons equipped with Supermarine Spitfire aircraft, and a mobile fighter sector headquarters. The wing provided air defence to Darwin and several other key Allied bases in northern Australia until the end of the war, and was again disbanded in October 1945.

en.wikipedia.org...


Subordinate units:
452 Squadron
457 Squadron
548 Squadron RAF
549 Squadron RAF

54 Squadron
5/105 FCU
7 RSU Return and Salvage Unit

trove.nla.gov.au...
edit on 1/17/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)


Take note, the Battle for Australia ended in 1943, so I am correct. The British arrived too late just like the Americans. Besides a squadron only consists of about 12 or so planes, what grand help for the tens of thousands who died for Britain....



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by OpenSky

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OpenSky
 


Flown by both the RAAF and the RAF. You conveniently leave out the help that England did send, just to rip on them. Why is that?


An outstanding work. In 1943 the legendary Spitfire fighter was employed in the defence of the Darwin area by No.1 Fighter Wing, RAAF. Made up of one British and two Australian squadrons,

avonmorebooks.com.au...


No. 1 Wing was an Australian Flying Corps (AFC) and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) wing active during World War I and World War II. The wing was established on 1 September 1917 as the 1st Training Wing and commanded the AFC's pilot training squadrons in England until April 1919, when it was disbanded. It was reformed on 7 October 1942 as a fighter unit comprising two Australian and one British flying squadrons equipped with Supermarine Spitfire aircraft, and a mobile fighter sector headquarters. The wing provided air defence to Darwin and several other key Allied bases in northern Australia until the end of the war, and was again disbanded in October 1945.

en.wikipedia.org...


Subordinate units:
452 Squadron
457 Squadron
548 Squadron RAF
549 Squadron RAF

54 Squadron
5/105 FCU
7 RSU Return and Salvage Unit

trove.nla.gov.au...
edit on 1/17/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)


Take note, the Battle for Australia ended in 1943, so I am correct. The British arrived too late just like the Americans. Besides a squadron only consists of about 12 or so planes, what grand help for the tens of thousands who died for Britain....


You are refusing to acknowledge the facts presented, which means you are arguing for arguments sake.
BTW tell me did your grandfathers or great grandfathers fight in WW1 or WW2 in Europe ? On the side of the allies ?



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by OpenSky
 


Take note, there was no "Battle for Australia", there were a series of battles in the area of Australia. Battle for Australia would mean there was an organized campaign to take Australia, and that Australia was invaded. Neither happened. The plan to invade Australia was dropped after Coral Sea, when the AMERICAN Navy stopped the Japanese fleet.

As for your Battle for Australia, guess what one of the battles mentioned is....Coral Sea. So tell me again how the American forces arrived too late.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by HelenConway
 


I refuse to acknowledge what didn't happen, Britain send f*ck all for us, that's the hard truth. So just because you sent about 12 planes to help defend our skies when the conflict was pretty much over doesn't mean anything. It actually proves my point in saying the British didn't care what was going to become of us.

As for my family, I know my poppy worked as a resistance fighter to German occupation of Poland which is why he was interned in the concentration camps, other than that I don't really know what else he did.

And on my mothers side, my uncle was in the Australian army, yet again I don't know where he fought. But I remember seeing old pictures of him holding his sword/machete.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OpenSky
 


Take note, there was no "Battle for Australia", there were a series of battles in the area of Australia. Battle for Australia would mean there was an organized campaign to take Australia, and that Australia was invaded. Neither happened. The plan to invade Australia was dropped after Coral Sea, when the AMERICAN Navy stopped the Japanese fleet.

As for your Battle for Australia, guess what one of the battles mentioned is....Coral Sea. So tell me again how the American forces arrived too late.


The Japanese weren't planning to invade Australia by sea, they were planning to take Port Moresby then use it as a staging ground for the eventual invasion of Australia. The northen invasion fleet was to be the primary force of this plan.

However, AUSTRALIAN militia managed to fight off the Japanese outnumbered 30 to 1. The Japanese defeat at Kokoda is what saved Australia not the Battle of the Coral Sea.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by OpenSky
 


Yeah, you're right. They should have stopped fighting the Germans and sent everything to Australia to save you guys. They just didn't care what happened there.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by OpenSky
reply to post by HelenConway
 


I refuse to acknowledge what didn't happen, Britain send f*ck all for us, that's the hard truth. So just because you sent about 12 planes to help defend our skies when the conflict was pretty much over doesn't mean anything. It actually proves my point in saying the British didn't care what was going to become of us.

As for my family, I know my poppy worked as a resistance fighter to German occupation of Poland which is why he was interned in the concentration camps, other than that I don't really know what else he did.

And on my mothers side, my uncle was in the Australian army, yet again I don't know where he fought. But I remember seeing old pictures of him holding his sword/machete.


I am just trying to understand where you are coming from with your hatred of my country men and your lies.

I am sure your grand father was very grateful that Britain and America fought in Europe - without those brave soldiers , sailors and the RAF and USAF he would not have been freed, Think on that whilst you call us traitors and cowards.

Also read about the blitz and about the battle Britain had whilst it fought alone in Europe until joined several years later by the Americans post Pearl Harbour.

Britain was spread about across the globe fighting for her survival.

The only placed bombed in australia was Darwin and they lost about 250 people tragically. Britain was being bombed everynight !!! 1000's were dying. A million plus dead by the end of the war,

So take your quisling comments where the sun don't shine and stick your head in a history book.

Think about this and read your history please.
edit on 17-1-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OpenSky
 


Yeah, you're right. They should have stopped fighting the Germans and sent everything to Australia to save you guys. They just didn't care what happened there.


What makes me mad though is that the British knew we Australians were desperate for weapons, many of the men at Kokoda had to share guns, thats how bad it got.

Yet the British were sending millions of weapons to the Russians to fight the Germans, couldn't at least SOME be sent to Australia?



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by OpenSky
 


Have you ever heard of Operation Mo? Obviously not. The Japanese were going to land forces in Port Moresby and had transports there ready to land troops. The transports veered away when it was obvious that there was going to be a major battle (Coral Sea). When the battle was over, they were forced to return to Japan to rearm and resupply, because of the losses. The Japanese were making new plans to attack by sea, when the battle at Midway decimated their carrier strength, so they called off naval actions, and went with the land route. So yes, the Americans played a large role in helping Australia during your so called "Battle for Australia".

Again, at the time of this Britain was in the fight for their own life, so how could they have sent any help? The US barely had the forces to fight at Coral Sea at the time.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by OpenSky

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OpenSky
 


Yeah, you're right. They should have stopped fighting the Germans and sent everything to Australia to save you guys. They just didn't care what happened there.


What makes me mad though is that the British knew we Australians were desperate for weapons, many of the men at Kokoda had to share guns, thats how bad it got.

Yet the British were sending millions of weapons to the Russians to fight the Germans, couldn't at least SOME be sent to Australia?


Oh yes that is right . Britain should have sent all her Navy / Army and RAF forces to save Darwin from an invasion, that never happened, and let her country be invaded by Hitler. Good plan !

Actually if it was not for Hitler having to fight a war on two fronts he may well have been successful in his attempt to rule Europe.

The Russians lost 21 million men in WW2 - did you know that ?
edit on 17-1-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by OpenSky

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OpenSky
 


Yeah, you're right. They should have stopped fighting the Germans and sent everything to Australia to save you guys. They just didn't care what happened there.


What makes me mad though is that the British knew we Australians were desperate for weapons, many of the men at Kokoda had to share guns, thats how bad it got.

Yet the British were sending millions of weapons to the Russians to fight the Germans, couldn't at least SOME be sent to Australia?


When you say 'we' you were not there so there was no 'we' about it.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by OpenSky
 


Millions? Hyperbole much?

The British sent 4613 aircraft, and just over 5000 tanks and armored vehicles to Russia during the entire course of the war. A total of just over 4200 tanks arrived and were put to use. In 1941, and 42 just over 2900 tanks, or over half of them were sent. The entire Allied force combined sent 15000 artillery pieces and 131000 guns to Russia. By far the largest numbers of equipment were from the US. There were a total of 22000 armored vehicles sent to Russia with 1900 lost at sea. Nowhere near your "millions".



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by HelenConway

Originally posted by OpenSky
reply to post by HelenConway
 


I refuse to acknowledge what didn't happen, Britain send f*ck all for us, that's the hard truth. So just because you sent about 12 planes to help defend our skies when the conflict was pretty much over doesn't mean anything. It actually proves my point in saying the British didn't care what was going to become of us.

As for my family, I know my poppy worked as a resistance fighter to German occupation of Poland which is why he was interned in the concentration camps, other than that I don't really know what else he did.

And on my mothers side, my uncle was in the Australian army, yet again I don't know where he fought. But I remember seeing old pictures of him holding his sword/machete.


I am just trying to understand where you are coming from with your hatred of my country men and your lies.

I am sure your grand father was very grateful that Britain and America fought in Europe - without those brave soldiers , sailors and the RAF and USAF he would not have been freed, Think on that whilst you call us traitors and cowards.

Also read about the blitz and about the battle Britain had whilst it fought alone in Europe until joined several years later by the Americans post Pearl Harbour.

Britain was spread about across the globe fighting for her survival.

The only placed bombed in australia was Darwin and they lost about 250 people tragically. Britain was being bombed everynight !!! 1000's were dying. A million plus dead by the end of the war,

So take your quisling comments where the sun don't shine and stick your head in a history book.

Think about this and read your history please.
edit on 17-1-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)


I've read about the Battle of Britain and I know hundreds of thousands were killed in it, also I never called you cowards, again your own words. I called you traitors and I don't believe I need to reiterate myself for it. Also Darwin wasn't the "only place bombed in Australia", Sydney, Newcastle, Cairns, Townsville, Derby, Wyndham, Broome, and many other towns were attacked as well.

Let me just give you a glimpse of how desperate Australia was at this time, we had raised a militia army of over 1 million men, out of a population of about 7 million people, meaning there were 6 people who had to work the farms, make the weapons, ship the goods,etc all just to sustain 1 million people (constantly).
Compared to Britain it obviously isn't much but for a nation of that size it was an epic struggle and shows exactly what we were facing at this point.






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