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Should Churchill be seen as a warmonger and partial escalator of WW2?

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posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:05 AM
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reply to post by theabsolutetruth
 


Again, you are discussing domestic policy, we are/were discussing invasion tactics and my points were only in relation to that.




posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:06 AM
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Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
Dresden had no significance whatsoever, it was a city filled with refugees fleeing from the red army hordes in the east, it was a city that had no tactical importance whatsoever, it only housed civilians (duh), wounded soldiers, both German and other nationalities fleeing from the Soviets, etc


I see you are trying to revise history again, you totally ignore the following... I wonder why?


The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the international concern about the bombing, which was classified until December 1978.[28] This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.[29] According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebrüder Bassler). It also said there were barracks, hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.[30] The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands.[31] The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.[31] Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians




every German city had practically some form of value to the bombing campaign, Dresden was not special in that. What you are describing was the way Dresden was viewed BEFORE it became the capital of refugees from the East. Dresden housed all the refugees, concentration camp inmates, prisoners, wounded German and other slavic soldiers, and all of those were incinerated through the fire storm. the allies killed refugees from the east by their bombing, not only just Germans, but other eastern people fleeing from the Soviets.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
but Hitler's war was different in that he did not do genocide through the air.


Except he tried in Coventry etc....


He did that in other ways, the allies however with they genocidal campaign of fire bombing civilians is another thing.


Of course you ignore all the German fire bombing.... funny that. The only reason the allies did it better is they had better and more bombers, that was the only thing stopping Germany.


let me ask you, when was coventry? was it, perhaps, AFTER the 7 times Churchill bombed Berlin and other German cities continually WITHOUT having Germany in the meantime bomb British cities? Churchill knew of the broken codes that emphasized Hitlers order to the luftwaffe to not bomb civilian areas, to only focus on military and coastal goals in the uk
edit on 15-1-2013 by ConservativeAwakening because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:11 AM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
let me ask you, when was coventry? was it, perhaps, AFTER the 7 times Churchill bombed Berlin and other German cities continually WITHOUT having Germany in the meantime bomb British cities? Churchill knew of the broken codes that emphasized Hitlers order to the luftwaffe to not bomb civilian areas, to only focus on military and coastal goals in the uk


I agree with you. Hitler wanted the British people's support so opted for strategic targets. Churchill wanted to break the German people's will, so went for civillian targets.


edit on 15-1-2013 by KilgoreTrout because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
AFTER the 7 times Churchill bombed Berlin and other German cities continually WITHOUT having Germany in the meantime bomb British cities?


Oh the poor Germans, they started the war by attacking Poland, they their apologists whine because Germany was attacked! If Germany did not want to get bombed then perhaps they shouldnt have started the war....



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by bknapple32
reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


Um I'm pretty sure Hitler inscinerating millions of Jews had something to do with it. Me thinks Churchill had no choice but to take out a man trying to conquer Europe.


Bull#, we're talking about 1933-1939 and the initial stages after the invasion of Poland. If Churchill never had done the insane measures against Germany, the Holocaust would have never happened. And sorry to burst your bubble, but it was never the intention of Hitler to "conquer" Europe. Hitler wanted to rightfully insert the German land that was stolen from them after Versaille back into Germany Proper. But that land was occupied by Poles who were unwilling to hand it over. 99% of that land housed Germans btw.

Jesus H. Not content with making current middle east dictators look like very nice people trying their best whilst misunderstood by the satanic evil western press ATS contributors are now trying to make Hitler look like a nice guy.

You offend the memory of tens millions of people who died in WWII.

FYI, Churchill was not in any executive position capable of influing the war . It DID NOT START UNDER CHURCHILL Sheeeesh.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
AFTER the 7 times Churchill bombed Berlin and other German cities continually WITHOUT having Germany in the meantime bomb British cities?


Oh the poor Germans, they started the war by attacking Poland, they their apologists whine because Germany was attacked! If Germany did not want to get bombed then perhaps they shouldnt have started the war....


you're obviously not ready to look at it from another perspective. what does German being bombed continually before taking up the same actions against England have to do with the German-Polish war? nothing. the Poles were aggressive against Germany in the pre-war times, England backed them and the ww1 sentimentality against Germany carried on.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
the Poles were aggressive against Germany in the pre-war times,


according to you....



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:31 AM
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gah! how dare anyone not from my glorious and faultless isle have the temerity to comment on something that does not concern them *toys thrown immediately out of pram*

sorry for my childish behaviour, please ignore me and continue



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:32 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Wrong again.

Jews were forced to wear the 'Star of David' from 1939, there wasn't a 'Jew lite star', or 'White Jew star' or 'Slavic Jew star', the Nazis viewed Jews as Jews and this policy was the same whether from Einsatzgruppen or in the Warsaw ghetto or invasions.

warszawa.getto.pl...


December 1939 1 XII - Jews over 12 years old must wear on their right arm a white band with a blue star of David; Jewish shops and enterprises have to be marked. Mid-December - a system of food rationing is introduced with ration cards (with no distinction between Poles and Jews). In the night from 26 to 27 XII in Wawer near Warsaw 106 men are shot in retaliation for the killing of two German non-commissioned officers in a local restaurant.




July 1941
1 VII-31 VIII - from 150,000 to 160,000 Jews are murdered in Bessarabia.
10 VII - 1600 Jews are murdered by their neighbours in Jedwabne.
In July in Ponary, the Germans together with Lithuanian collaborators murder c. 5,000 rural Jews.
From July to September - the height of the epidemic of typhoid in the Warsaw ghetto; c. 5,000 people die a month.
August 1941
1 VIII - the ghetto in Białystok is sealed off.
20 VIII - in Paris arrests of Jews begin, and they are gathered for example in the transit camp at Drancy, from where up to 17 August 1944 more than 70,000 Jews are deported to the death camps.
31 VIII - 3 IX in Ponary near Vilnius c. 8,000 Jews are murdered.
In August the death rate in the ghetto in Warsaw reaches a height - 5,560 people die.
September 1941
3-6 IX - in Vilnius, two ghettos are set up.
8 IX - the seige of Leningrad by the German army begins (the blockade of the city will last 900 days - to 14 January 1944).
18 IX - Auerswald announces that the ghetto will be reduced in size and more strictly isolated, and also a change in the manner of designating the boundaries (along streets, and not as to date between building plots).
29-30 IX - during the extermination action in Babi Yar, 33,771 Jews from Kiev are killed.
End of September - the culminating moment of the campaign to help the starving in the Warsaw ghetto, at this time 128,000 soups were distributed daily.
October 1941
1 X - permission was given to open elementary schools in the Warsaw ghetto.
1 X-22 XII - during the extermination action in Vilnius 33,500 Jews are killed.
15 X - Frank's decree forbidding Jews on pain of the death penalty to leave the housing districts designated for them.
21-26 X - Korczak's Orphans' Home moves from 33 Chłodna Street to the building at 16 Sienna Street/Śliska 9.
23 X - Auerswald's decree on a change in the boundaries (reduction) of the ghetto; to 21 December c. 75,000 Jews change their place of residence.
From October all inhabitants of the GG are obliged to black out their windows from 17.50 to 7.0 a.m..
November 1941

edit on 15-1-2013 by theabsolutetruth because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-1-2013 by theabsolutetruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by yorkshirelad

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by bknapple32
reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


Um I'm pretty sure Hitler inscinerating millions of Jews had something to do with it. Me thinks Churchill had no choice but to take out a man trying to conquer Europe.


Bull#, we're talking about 1933-1939 and the initial stages after the invasion of Poland. If Churchill never had done the insane measures against Germany, the Holocaust would have never happened. And sorry to burst your bubble, but it was never the intention of Hitler to "conquer" Europe. Hitler wanted to rightfully insert the German land that was stolen from them after Versaille back into Germany Proper. But that land was occupied by Poles who were unwilling to hand it over. 99% of that land housed Germans btw.

Jesus H. Not content with making current middle east dictators look like very nice people trying their best whilst misunderstood by the satanic evil western press ATS contributors are now trying to make Hitler look like a nice guy.

You offend the memory of tens millions of people who died in WWII.

FYI, Churchill was not in any executive position capable of influing the war . It DID NOT START UNDER CHURCHILL Sheeeesh.


that is simply not true, Churchill was in fact one of the main mongers against Germany. There were may in Britain that would have just waited for aggressive reactions from Germany (which only came after France and Britain declared war against Germany, and Germany never declared the war back to them) Hitler wasn't a nice guy, he was a #head and one of the worst things that happened to the German people, but for historical accuracy, Churchill was equally a #head to the English because he got them into a war with another country which government declared that it wanted to go side by side with the UK. The war in Europe could have been avoided if it weren't for Churchill's aggressive anti-German stance in ww1 and pre ww2.
edit on 15-1-2013 by ConservativeAwakening because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-1-2013 by ConservativeAwakening because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:33 AM
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Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
the Poles were aggressive against Germany in the pre-war times,


according to you....


according to history, history that has become forgotten and avoided at all cost because it might just make the Germans look not as bad as they were painted to be post ww2



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:38 AM
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reply to post by theabsolutetruth
 


Wow, thanks, more sources that support exactly what I have been saying...even if you fail to comprehend that yourself. Bless


You're too kind



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Perhaps you are unable to read or understand the information posted.

Nazis didn't classify Jews as white or Slavic during invasions, if they were Jewish they were treated as Jews. They also killed Jews before 1941.

You denied this.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:46 AM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by yorkshirelad

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by bknapple32
reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


Um I'm pretty sure Hitler inscinerating millions of Jews had something to do with it. Me thinks Churchill had no choice but to take out a man trying to conquer Europe.


Bull#, we're talking about 1933-1939 and the initial stages after the invasion of Poland. If Churchill never had done the insane measures against Germany, the Holocaust would have never happened. And sorry to burst your bubble, but it was never the intention of Hitler to "conquer" Europe. Hitler wanted to rightfully insert the German land that was stolen from them after Versaille back into Germany Proper. But that land was occupied by Poles who were unwilling to hand it over. 99% of that land housed Germans btw.

Jesus H. Not content with making current middle east dictators look like very nice people trying their best whilst misunderstood by the satanic evil western press ATS contributors are now trying to make Hitler look like a nice guy.

You offend the memory of tens millions of people who died in WWII.

FYI, Churchill was not in any executive position capable of influing the war . It DID NOT START UNDER CHURCHILL Sheeeesh.


that is simply not true, Churchill was in fact one of the main mongers against Germany. There were may in Britain that would have just waited for aggressive reactions from Germany (which only came after France and Britain declared war against Germany, and Germany never declared the war back to them) Hitler wasn't a nice guy, he was a #head and one of the worst things that happened to the German people, but for historical accuracy, Churchill was equally a #head to the English because he got them into a war with another country which government declared that it wanted to go side by side with the UK. The war in Europe could have been avoided if it weren't for Churchill's aggressive anti-German stance in ww1 and pre ww2.


The presumption is that Churchill saved us from tyranny...and there is some basis in that, unless you consider yourself to be a pure-bred Aryan...whatever that may be...personally, while I respect Churchill as a military leader, I know enough to know that he was an enemy of the working classes, of which I consider myself a part...but at least I am not a victim of racial cleansing, so while kept in my place, at least I have a place and can keep up the good fight. I don't honestly think that there was ever a good guy in any of this...perhaps Roosevelt. His heart seemed to have been in the right place most of the time.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:48 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by yorkshirelad

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by bknapple32
reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


Um I'm pretty sure Hitler inscinerating millions of Jews had something to do with it. Me thinks Churchill had no choice but to take out a man trying to conquer Europe.


Bull#, we're talking about 1933-1939 and the initial stages after the invasion of Poland. If Churchill never had done the insane measures against Germany, the Holocaust would have never happened. And sorry to burst your bubble, but it was never the intention of Hitler to "conquer" Europe. Hitler wanted to rightfully insert the German land that was stolen from them after Versaille back into Germany Proper. But that land was occupied by Poles who were unwilling to hand it over. 99% of that land housed Germans btw.

Jesus H. Not content with making current middle east dictators look like very nice people trying their best whilst misunderstood by the satanic evil western press ATS contributors are now trying to make Hitler look like a nice guy.

You offend the memory of tens millions of people who died in WWII.

FYI, Churchill was not in any executive position capable of influing the war . It DID NOT START UNDER CHURCHILL Sheeeesh.


that is simply not true, Churchill was in fact one of the main mongers against Germany. There were may in Britain that would have just waited for aggressive reactions from Germany (which only came after France and Britain declared war against Germany, and Germany never declared the war back to them) Hitler wasn't a nice guy, he was a #head and one of the worst things that happened to the German people, but for historical accuracy, Churchill was equally a #head to the English because he got them into a war with another country which government declared that it wanted to go side by side with the UK. The war in Europe could have been avoided if it weren't for Churchill's aggressive anti-German stance in ww1 and pre ww2.


The presumption is that Churchill saved us from tyranny...and there is some basis in that, unless you consider yourself to be a pure-bred Aryan...whatever that may be...personally, while I respect Churchill as a military leader, I know enough to know that he was an enemy of the working classes, of which I consider myself a part...but at least I am not a victim of racial cleansing, so while kept in my place, at least I have a place and can keep up the good fight. I don't honestly think that there was ever a good guy in any of this...perhaps Roosevelt. His heart seemed to have been in the right place most of the time.


oh don't get me started about Roosevelt lol



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:48 AM
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reply to post by theabsolutetruth
 


Where?

I never claimed 'classification' or do you not even understand what the term 'summarily' means?



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:48 AM
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edit on 15-1-2013 by KilgoreTrout because: so good I said it twice




posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
oh don't get me started about Roosevelt lol


I'm kind of tempted to now



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
oh don't get me started about Roosevelt lol


I'm kind of tempted to now




Roosevelt stated in secret that it was his goal to dismantle the British Empire and replace it with his American Empire. FDR or at least his administration did know about the impending attack on Pearl Harbor, in fact they did everything they could to provoke the Japanese into firing the first shot. fdr came up with ludicrous lies about German ambitions for the american continent, and fed that to the people hat believed him obviously. Roosevelt had an administration with large portions of Jews (nothing wrong about that), so you obviously can understand the stance of his presidency towards the non existent threat of Germany towards the Americans.



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