Public Fool System, Time to Save our Children

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by bigdohbeatdown

 

I'm sorry what is the Socratic Method? Please explain with a statement not a link.
I SAW how the schools changed from the 60s to the mid 70s.I failed the second grade because of a "math block" that has hamstrung my life.
They stopped teaching me and brought in prepackaged programs to fit all. From what I have seen only gifted students have this tutelage to succeed,never mind the arts.

The classic Socratic Method is a technique of learning (developed by Socrates) where you do not give a student an answer but rather lead them to the answer by asking key questions. It exercises the mind and develops critical thinking.

It is also a tool used in psychological control and indoctrination. With an underdeveloped mind, the answer that the student arrives at is very dependent on the key questions presented. The reason for this is that they do not recognise the questions as being flawed or manipulative. They take them as truth and subsequently arrive at a flawed conclusion, but consider it to also be truth.

The Socratic Method is a very powerful tool for both good and evil.

Great to see that interview with Charlotte Iserbyt didn't get buried. Her book is one of the most important works on the history of the modern education system.

Here is another great one which repeats a lot of the original but adds some new stuff:
www.youtube.com...

Hi smyleegrl,

I agree with your comment here:

However, a good teacher doesn't teach from a textbook. Its there as a reference tool only. I know a lot of teachers, especially the older ones, do use the book. But in an ideal world that wouldn't be the case.

I am curious if you are concerned about the effects of the standardized tests? Many teachers have expressed outrage that the necessity for a school to score highly on these test, in order to receive funding, has made it so teachers are forced to spend a significant portion of the year doing nothing but teaching from the text book. They believe that they are no longer teaching anything but the ability to recite on demand.Do you believe this to be the case?

YES!

Here's what's happened since No Child Left Behind (NCLB) was passed. Before, I could pitch my lessons to the "higher" leveled student. The benefit of this was that the higher performing students weren't bored, and the lower performing students were challenged. All the research indicates that we have to challenge the children or they lose interest.

Since NCLB and standardized testing, we have to spend a significant portion of the time doing "drills." Its basic route memorization to get the students to pass the test. Research also indicates that performance on a standardized test is NOT a good indicator of how much a child has learned. Lots of reasons for this; children get nervous, test anxiety; I've actually had children so nervous they threw up when it came time to test. This is entirely the fault of the teachers and the school, who put so much pressure on these kids to do well. We shouldn't do that....but when your job depends on the kids scoring a certain percentage, its hard not to. So now we pitch our lessons to the lower-achieving students just to make sure they get the basics. This means our higher students are bored (a very bad thing) and the entire class is "dumbed down," so to speak.

The other problem with standardized testing is that it tests a student on the students' current grade level. However, that grade level may not correspond to a student's actual intellectual level. For example. When I taught fifth grade, I had students who came to me reading on a second grade level. These children worked incredibly hard and managed, by the end of the year, to be reading on a fourth grade level....a growth equivalent to two years. However, the tests are written on a fifth grade level. They struggled to read the tests, and failed. So here I had children who had done a tremendous job of growing, yet they thought of themselves as failures, all because of one test.

That year I also had a Hispanic student move into my classroom who spoke NO English at all. Guess what....she still had to take the tests. In English.

Also what are your thoughts on the schools' role in the physical deterioration of children over the last several decades? This is another issue teachers have expressed outrage over. Do you also believe that the lack of physical activity and nutrition while the child is in the schools' care is to the detriment of the child?

edit on 16-1-2013 by harvib because: (no reason given)

Another huge yes. Here's a rant I wrote about that just a couple of weeks ago: Want to improve schools? Get rid of recess!

We know, through tons of research, that children need to move. They simply cannot sit behind a desk all day and learn. This is especially true for younger children and boys. Exercise (in the form of Physical Education) is a necessary component of learning and should be an every day class. Its not, though...because we need more time to teach to those tests.

What's also important is recess, a time for children to have unstructured interactions with each other. This is critical for recharging students and for developing social skills. Yet more and more schools are doing away with recess time altogether.

When I was in school (I'm 37) we had recess until 8th grade. Then we had two twenty minute breaks in high school, in addition to lunch. Now, recess ends at fifth grade. I'm not sure what the break schedule is in high schools.

My husband teaches 8th grade. This is no joke.....the state mandates how much physical movement the children need per day. In his school improvement meeting, they were trying to find a way to meet this requirement. Believe it or not, they counted the time spent walking to classes as part of the phys ed requirement. Disgraceful.

I'm working on my doctorate in education, and I think my dissertation is going to be on the detrimental effects of taking away recess. Hopefully my research can do some good, whenever I get it finished. That's in the future, though.

reply to post by UnderGetty


And teaching children how to question is another very important skill. I've got first grade this year, but we watch commercials and eventually they begin to question what they are being told.

My favorite lesson was when I had older students. We would watch an episode of a ghost hunting show, and then question the "evidence." It was a lot of fun watching kids go from wide-eyed believers to skeptics who could critically think about alternative possibilities.

reply to post by smyleegrl


It seems clear that you along with most teachers care greatly for the kids they try to teach. And I know a lot of teachers are adamant that our current school system is failing to produce happy, healthy, intelligent, literate children. In fact, they contend, it is doing the exact opposite.

So the big question becomes, do you believe this to be a result of incompetence on the part of policy makers or is this being doing purposefully in order to produce a sub class populated with the majority. A populace that is being trained to be able to endure repetitive mindless task, who is incapable of question, who is unable to think of a structure other then the one imposed on them, fragile and weak, unmotivated, and too unhealthy and tired to care. The latter being the belief of several that are critical of the current school system's policies and motivations.

reply to post by harvib


It's deliberate. This book, called The Leipzig Connection, documents the history and motivation:
www.amazon.com...

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

So the big question becomes, do you believe this to be a result of incompetence on the part of policy makers or is this being doing purposefully in order to produce a sub class populated with the majority. A populace that is being trained to be able to endure repetitive mindless task, who is incapable of question, who is unable to think of a structure other then the one imposed on them, fragile and weak, unmotivated, and too unhealthy and tired to care. The latter being the belief of several that are critical of the current school system's policies and motivations.

edit on 16-1-2013 by harvib because: (no reason given)

I think its incompetence, at least on the local level. My principal taught in middle school, yet he's the principal of an elementary school. He doesn't have the basic understanding of young children, how they learn, the developmental stages, etc. So he puts policies in place that end up backfiring, such as the no recess policy.

On a higher level? I don't think its intentional at all. I know we've sent educators to different countries to study their teaching methods. And our teaching methods are changing as a result. For example, the way we teach math is undergoing a major change. When I was in school, math was rote memorization. When you subtracted a number, you "borrowed" and that was how it was done. We were taught the steps to solve a problem, but not WHY those steps were used.

Now we focus more on students' understanding the base ten system and how to manipulate it both physically (with manipulatives) and mentally (in their head without writing paper and pencil). Once kids truly understand the base ten system, algebra becomes a breeze. If you're interested, look up Singapore Math or the Kwan Academy, they have great examples.

So these incentives for change are coming from a national level. And if you think about it, I know ATS has a lot of folks who love to consider schools indoctrination centers. But would it really benefit a government to have no critical thinkers, no future scientists? Where would they pull their CIA agents from, at the least? And our country's future is based, at least in part, on the technology we develop. We need students who can meet those needs.

So no, I don't think there's a national conspiracy to dumb down education. But that's my opinion, and its very unpopular here on ATS.

Originally posted by UnderGetty
reply to post by harvib

 

It's deliberate. This book, called The Leipzig Connection, documents the history and motivation:
www.amazon.com...

edit on 16-1-2013 by UnderGetty because: (no reason given)

I will read this book and report back afterwards. Thanks for the link.

reply to post by smyleegrl


I agree that on a local level that the complacency that allows such damaging policies is most certainly incompetence. I don't believe that teachers , principals, and superintendents are all pulled in to a giant meeting hall where they discuss damaging the minds and bodies of children. However almost anyone within the profession of education would agree that their ability to teach and set policy has been and continues to be strictly regulated and influenced. i.e. standardized testing.

When one sees a pattern of destructive policies continually blamed on incompetence one has to begin to wonder if there is motivation for such policies. Some people say there are. And they make a compelling argument.

A human being that will unquestionably preform mindless repetitive tasks, one that will never be able to out think being a dependent and is too malnourished and physically ill to do anything about even if he could, one that is easily suggestible and easily influenced, has learned to accept that they are always a subordinate to some one else's authority. These are traits that make an excellent resource. I believe this is the argument being made as to why such damaging policies continue to be in place.

reply to post by drmeola


What is it you dissagree with in the public school system?

Lets all hope that its not the following things of which only the most ignorant people think.

1. Evolution is a trick by the devil

2. homosexuals are evil and possed by the devil

3. Black people are cursed by god and our children shouldnt mingle with them.

These are the majority reasons why people keep their children out of public schools. Would you please explain you problems in great detail.

reply to post by drmeola


My wife's a teacher. She taught in both the UK and the US. Are you saying that she's a tool of some kind of conspiracy? Because if you are she's going to laugh. A lot.

reply to post by Wertdagf


You could read his original post and check out the videos he posted to find out...

Hi Wertdogf,

First thank you harvib, but that is just the surface of things to be honest, there is so much more going on in not only the school system but with all federally run systems. To begin understanding how deep this rabbit hole goes please check out my main class site here on ATS. The first impression your response will be this guy is nuts, this is due to the way we have all been educated for the most part, then you will look into the foot notes, law book reference links ext…and then the light will begin to come on and things will click very quickly. These lessons are not some patriot hype, just pure truth in law, and though individuals will say “I want the truth”, but to quote from Jack Nicholson’s role “you can’t handle the truth.”

For those willing to take the steps, do their homework and verify what is contained within will truly be set free, for other’s these truths will always be denied as many can not see past their programming.

This is my main class link page: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by drmeola

 

My wife's a teacher. She taught in both the UK and the US. Are you saying that she's a tool of some kind of conspiracy? Because if you are she's going to laugh. A lot.

No it's not a conspiracy. It was carefully planned and orchestrated. It is well documented and in the official historic record for anyone to read for themselves.

It started with Rockefeller and the philanthropic activities he initiated in an effort to clean up his public image. The man who was placed in charge of managing the distribution of this wealth was careful to document everything because of the ongoing legal attacks on Rockefeller's fortune and the potential for further litigation.

reply to post by bigdohbeatdown


I have talked to my son about homeschool.He is against but if I feel it's necessary I will homeschool..I also hated school once year 10rolled around.. I barely went,I was so bored I would skip 20days in a row..Then come back do great in my classes without even all the stuff I missed.It really used to make some of the other students angry..I have been with my husband since high school,he has ALWAYS worked in a trade..As far as IB program there is A LOT of controversy surrounding the program and I'm not really a fan of it from what i have researched..

For anyone considering homeschooling, please know I'd be more than happy to help you plan lessons or come up with ideas. All you have to do is ask. I've also got a lot of great resources and websites I can share, that I use when planning lessons. Just know I mainly teach k-6, so may have to do more digging for older kids. But my husband teaches middle and high school, so I can pick his brain for you!

reply to post by drmeola


Seems this public school issue is coming up more and more way, on more and more threads.

People have spent a lot of time blaming guns for Sandy Hook. Could be time to blame the collective education system....at least in part.

As the gun grabbing debates gets worn to bits and pieces.....maybe we can discuss other issues related to the collective public school thing.

blog.documentarychannel.com...