What will happen if there is a civil war in America?

Mods move this if I have it in the wrong forum.

Hey everybody, Dave here coming to you from my bunker in the Ozarks with a scenario that Myself and Superman2012 were having in the I'm calling it now: Americans will crumble when Obama passes new gun laws. thread. Our discussion, which takes place over the last 3 or so pages of that thread had to do with what would happen if there was some sort of civil war in the united states over gun ownership. I've been thinking about how to start this thread, and being an amateur writer, I will post the scenario in a "novel style" post. Then, everybody discuss what I've posted, Superman2012 will be a major part of this thread as he and I had a lot of disagreements over the discussion. So, mainly this will probably be between him and myself, but we encourage everybody to post their opinions and views here.

First things first. Lets not turn this into a US vs Canada (or the Uk or Europe, or anywhere else) thread. Anybody doing that will be reported to the mods. Please DO NOT troll here. This is to discuss a theoretical situation, and to hear everyone's opinion in an intelligent manner. Of course this is all theoretical, and I don't think a total gun ban would ever be passed, however, It was a good discussion, and we'd like to continue it here and derail the other thread no further. Please keep the Terms of Service in mind and be civil.

So, here we go.

The President of the United states uses and Executive Order to ban civilian gun ownership, exempting those with connections to the administration. DHS gun handover stations are placed throughout the 50 states offering up to $200 for each gun turned in. of the estimated 300,000,000 guns in the United States, only 97,000,000 are handed over during the two-week amnesty period. The Department of Homeland Security with support of the President, sends out agents to confiscate guns from those who didn't turn theirs in. DHS agents are dispatched to civilian homes throughout the country in full riot gear to confiscate firearms.

Seeing the brutality of the DHS agents in raiding the homes of their neighbors, civilian gun owners fight back, killing several of the agents and causing a retreat.

The President of the United States goes on national television lamenting the deaths of the DHS agents and labeling their killers as Terrorists.

State and city infrastructures crumble as a full on civil war begins between the tyrannical government and civilian resistors.

The U.S. Military is called to stop the resistance. Military members refuse to attack American civilians and 25% of the military deserts, another 40% stage a coup and take control of equipment, ranging from weapons as small as guns and ammunition to assets as large as fighter jets and Naval Warships. They are labeled by the Government as Terrorist Sympathizers and the military becomes tied up with infighting and mutiny.

To combat the exodus of people leaving metropolitan areas to avoid mass deaths due to the general anarchy, the President offers food an shelter to Americans who will move to metropolitan areas to keep industry alive and provide workers for the crops and livestock needed to feed civilians in the metropolitan areas.

Housing becomes an issue as the starving masses move back to the cities, many are forced into modern Hoovervilles.

Armed guards keep watch over as many large crops and meat processing plants to protect the workers and foodstuffs from raids by the the resistance.

Military deserters make it to their hometowns to aid in the resistance and try to set up some system of local government.

Police have also had several run ins with resistance movements, many are killed, many more leave their posts to protect their family, many others join resistance movements.

Military Veterans and experienced hunters form small militia groups to retake farmlands and livestock ranches.

Starvation and exhaustion take their toll throughout urban areas as people working the government controlled farmlands have trouble adapting to their new lifestyle.

Medical emergencies and disease take their toll in the resistance-allied communities as medical supplies dry up. Doctors, EMTs, and former military medics do as much as they can to aid those in need as they themselves are succumbing to exhaustion.

The Department of Defense deploys predator drones against resistance fighters raiding crops and livestock, entire fields are burned as the rockets strike resistance fighters attacking the government farms.

As many more in urban areas succumb to starvation, the president grounds all Predator Drones in fear of losing more food sources to friendly fire. What is left of the Military is brought home as wars in global theaters are called off to add to Homeland Defense forces. Satellites are used to locate resistance forces, and ground troops are sent.

Guerrilla warfare commences and losses on both sides are immense. Freedom fighters armed with hunting rifles and military gear liberated from local bases attack government convoys from wooded areas along major interstate highways.

People in Urban areas begin to revolt as their quality of life is vastly diminished as winter approaches. Handguns, smuggled in by workers in the DHS Labor Camps (depression era style Hoovervilles) are used against the DHS police forces. The President blames it on "Terrorist Sympethizers".

Government laborers begin to escape DHS Labor Camps.

Resistance leaders begin to broadcast from local television and radio stations.

A former General becomes the de facto leader of the resistance.

The DHS employs sleeper agents to infiltrate resistance cells and assassinate resistance leaders.

Several resistance leaders are assassinated. The leader of the resistance puts out a televised address to the President of the United States, calling for his surrender to prevent any more unnecessary deaths.

The President answers back with a refusal stating: "We do not negotiate with terrorists."


So, that's what I have so far. What I also want to mention is the need for electricity and fuel throughout such a situation. Farm equipment will be run on what diesel is available, but would ultimately be converted to use biodiesel. Electricity supplied by hydro-electric dams will most likely continue as I think enough of the technicians at such places would try to keep the power on. Nuclear power plants would become a major concern of the Government and would most likely remain under their control.

The biggest problem for the Urban Federal zones would be food and shelter for it's inhabitants. Most rural citizens would align with the resistance, and their biggest problem would be a lack of medical professionals and medical supplies.

Anyway, would like to hear from everybody on this one. I wrote it like a story, since its a hypothetical situation anyway.

there shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.
and a whole lot of death - find another way to sort your issues that doesnt involve killing your young (and everyone else).

reply to post by dave_welch


This actually does sound plausible if such a situation actually occurred.

1. I would like to think that a larger portion of the military would oppose the Govt.

2. I think you are giving DHS more credit than they warrant. The vast majority of their force is made up of TSA agents, who are grossly untrained and unprepared for any type of armed conflict. Not to mention fat, out of shape and largely just plain ineffective.

Interesting though.

After you are all done killing each other,the Chinese would move over and steam roll your azz

Britain would declare China as their new special ally and we'd all live happily ever after

peace

Military members refuse to attack American civilians and 25% of the military deserts, another 40% stage a coup and take control of equipment, ranging from weapons as small as guns and ammunition to assets as large as fighter jets and Naval Warships.

Nope. This is what is going to happen:




I'm sorry. I just don't believe our military will stand behind us. No offense to those here who serve and say they won't, but if we ever got to that point in the OP's scenario, I simply do not trust that our military will not follow the orders they are given.

reply to post by watchitburn


True, I was using conservative numbers for the most part, obviously nobody can know what would happen.

reply to post by Thunder heart woman


Sorry, but being a vet myself, I'd say that a large number of the military would not follow that order as it is an unlawful order. Also, considering we took an oath to support and defend the constitution of the united states. I don't know about you, but I don't take oaths lightly.

reply to post by Thunder heart woman


I agree with your assessment. At the end of the video clip, the soldier plainly states, that "you don't want to think about what you are gonna have to do, if someone pops around a corner..." The newsguy says, " you mean shoot an American." The soldier says, "Yeah."

This is one soldier, but it makes one wonder, how many others would shoot an American as part of doing their job.

I agree with Thunder heart woman, I don't think there would be enough resistance. I also don't think that the resistance would be organized enough. You'd see pockets of resistance here and there but it probably wouldn't get to the point where we'd have a viable civil war on our hands. Too many people would be too scared and too complacent to do anything. There are still a lot of people in this country who don't own guns and we've seen that when something doesn't directly and obviously affect the average citizen, they aren't going to do anything about it.

Also, war is horrible and many people in America have never known it; unless the government starts publicly attacking people, they won't fight back. Basically what I'm saying is that for there to be a viable civil war, you would need to have an event that directly negatively affects everyone, not just the gun owners.

reply to post by dave_welch

What will happen if there is a civil war in America?

It will be televised, edited to death with the intention of a steered outcome, and then made into hollywood blockbusters to re-write the facts.

I don't think civil war will happen though, it would be called something else to change people's view of it. Something like "terrorism" or "social filtration".

Originally posted by dave_welch
reply to post by Thunder heart woman

 

Sorry, but being a vet myself, I'd say that a large number of the military would not follow that order as it is an unlawful order. Also, considering we took an oath to support and defend the constitution of the united states. I don't know about you, but I don't take oaths lightly.

Nothing is more American than one who will "support and defend the constitution of the united states".

The Traitors are the real "terrorists".

Originally posted by Thunder heart woman

I'm sorry. I just don't believe our military will stand behind us. No offense to those here who serve and say they won't, but if we ever got to that point in the OP's scenario, I simply do not trust that our military will not follow the orders they are given.

Agreed.

A few years back, there was a police raid in Georgia where the people in the target residence were handcuffed and had hoods put over their heads. Now .... who do you reckon' was on that "team"?

This is what our troops have been brainwashed to do. It would be my guess that most of them will follow orders and most will do everything here that they have been doing overseas. House raids, disappearances, secret prisons, torture ..... and murder. The murders in prison were particularly brutal according to autopsies performed by US military doctors.

Only about 3,000,000 guns are in the resistance's hands. this would make them a very low minority, about less than 1% of the entire population.

The Military would not defacto and side in that high percentage for

exactly what happened during hurricane katrina, they will come door to door and seize the guns and if you put up any resistance whatsoever you will be detained indefinitely.

i have seen how the gestapo operate here in america, and i have watched as meek and mild mannered citizens have watched and done nothing, WEAK and PUNY!

they will always win period.

unless an outside force like a meteor or a super volcano erupts or a massive tidal wave hits, basically an event where government and laws are rendered completely useless, then is when you might see people stand up and fight, but it will be chaos and destruction, NOT the poetic and romantic view you have of "freedom" fighters standing up to the "man"

they have neutered us, and 99% of us sat there and took it.

Originally posted by jcarpenter

Originally posted by Thunder heart woman

I'm sorry. I just don't believe our military will stand behind us. No offense to those here who serve and say they won't, but if we ever got to that point in the OP's scenario, I simply do not trust that our military will not follow the orders they are given.

Agreed.

A few years back, there was a police raid in Georgia where the people in the target residence were handcuffed and had hoods put over their heads. Now .... who do you reckon' was on that "team"?

This is what our troops have been brainwashed to do. It would be my guess that most of them will follow orders and most will do everything here that they have been doing overseas. House raids, disappearances, secret prisons, torture ..... and murder. The murders in prison were particularly brutal according to autopsies performed by US military doctors.

exactly, not too long ago i was telling one of my army friends on how it pisses me off when you have all these young kids coming back from iraq and they are posting pictures on facebook and twitter in uniform holding guns in different poses, and they think that they are heroes, they think that they are actually defending us from something...

truth is, they aren't and they are brainwashed so deep it is unfathomable... i remember telling my friend how hes not a hero did nothing over there but workout and play xbox, and he immediately snapped, im talking about within fractions of a second and started yelling and speeding in the car. and then as if nothing just went back to normal, they are subconsciously programmed to protect their branch and they dont know it, not to mention all the experimental crap they inject them with, like human guinea pigs

Originally posted by k1k1to

Originally posted by jcarpenter

Originally posted by Thunder heart woman

I'm sorry. I just don't believe our military will stand behind us. No offense to those here who serve and say they won't, but if we ever got to that point in the OP's scenario, I simply do not trust that our military will not follow the orders they are given.

Agreed.

A few years back, there was a police raid in Georgia where the people in the target residence were handcuffed and had hoods put over their heads. Now .... who do you reckon' was on that "team"?

This is what our troops have been brainwashed to do. It would be my guess that most of them will follow orders and most will do everything here that they have been doing overseas. House raids, disappearances, secret prisons, torture ..... and murder. The murders in prison were particularly brutal according to autopsies performed by US military doctors.

exactly, not too long ago i was telling one of my army friends on how it pisses me off when you have all these young kids coming back from iraq and they are posting pictures on facebook and twitter in uniform holding guns in different poses, and they think that they are heroes, they think that they are actually defending us from something...

truth is, they aren't and they are brainwashed so deep it is unfathomable... i remember telling my friend how hes not a hero did nothing over there but workout and play xbox, and he immediately snapped, im talking about within fractions of a second and started yelling and speeding in the car. and then as if nothing just went back to normal, they are subconsciously programmed to protect their branch and they dont know it, not to mention all the experimental crap they inject them with, like human guinea pigs

The reason you got that reaction from him was that you have entirely no clue what is going on in Iraq. Believe me, depolyed soldiers in Iraq do a hell of a lot more than play xbox. Whether they're fighting for the right cause or not, they are still fighting. I was in the Navy for four years, and I can guarantee you that we did a hell of a lot more than play xbox. On a typical day on deployment, I was getting maybe 4 hours of sleep, especially during counter-piracy ops.

Originally posted by dave_welch

Originally posted by k1k1to

Originally posted by jcarpenter

Originally posted by Thunder heart woman

I'm sorry. I just don't believe our military will stand behind us. No offense to those here who serve and say they won't, but if we ever got to that point in the OP's scenario, I simply do not trust that our military will not follow the orders they are given.

Agreed.

A few years back, there was a police raid in Georgia where the people in the target residence were handcuffed and had hoods put over their heads. Now .... who do you reckon' was on that "team"?

This is what our troops have been brainwashed to do. It would be my guess that most of them will follow orders and most will do everything here that they have been doing overseas. House raids, disappearances, secret prisons, torture ..... and murder. The murders in prison were particularly brutal according to autopsies performed by US military doctors.

exactly, not too long ago i was telling one of my army friends on how it pisses me off when you have all these young kids coming back from iraq and they are posting pictures on facebook and twitter in uniform holding guns in different poses, and they think that they are heroes, they think that they are actually defending us from something...

truth is, they aren't and they are brainwashed so deep it is unfathomable... i remember telling my friend how hes not a hero did nothing over there but workout and play xbox, and he immediately snapped, im talking about within fractions of a second and started yelling and speeding in the car. and then as if nothing just went back to normal, they are subconsciously programmed to protect their branch and they dont know it, not to mention all the experimental crap they inject them with, like human guinea pigs

The reason you got that reaction from him was that you have entirely no clue what is going on in Iraq. Believe me, depolyed soldiers in Iraq do a hell of a lot more than play xbox. Whether they're fighting for the right cause or not, they are still fighting. I was in the Navy for four years, and I can guarantee you that we did a hell of a lot more than play xbox. On a typical day on deployment, I was getting maybe 4 hours of sleep, especially during counter-piracy ops.

thats fine, but you know deep down that it was all BS, and another thing none of the military branches are actually fighting for any of us at all, and thirdly you VOLUNTEERED. you dont need to brag about how much of a hero or how "hard" things were for you over there when you SIGNED UP for it. now if you would have been drafted and this country was being directly threatened then i would lay down my jacket on the mud for you. but otherwise there is no reason for these cocky 20 something year olds who signed up to "play call of duty in real life" to be running around and feeling entitled for doing nothing but occupying a foreign country and oppressing/raping/stealing/killing their inhabitants, i have many military friends and this is the sad truth

I pray to god it will never come down to this. It scares me to think that this could happen in the near future. Why cant the government just leave people be?

reply to post by dave_welch


The people will lose, the Elite and their army will win. Sorry, the only plausible conclusion. Unless we all become supermen, the chances the People (those who oppose tyranny) would have a voice in the future are slim to non-existent.

Originally posted by watchitburn
reply to post by dave_welch

 

2. I think you are giving DHS more credit than they warrant. The vast majority of their force is made up of TSA agents, who are grossly untrained and unprepared for any type of armed conflict. Not to mention fat, out of shape and largely just plain ineffective.

You just described virtually every single gun owner I've met.

Maybe we should put all the resistance fighters and TSA agents in boxing rings to fight obesity and defend the constitution.