China Newspaper Says.....

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty


In these cases China's actions are much more intimidation than actually being considered any real threat of Military Force Projection. The action and level of capability of Chinese Forces in those areas is a very low threat level for the U.S. Military based and responsible for the saftey of U.S. Friends and Allies in the region as well as responsible for protecting International Waters.

Should the U.S. choose to those Chinese Military Forces would be first confronted by overflights of USAF and USN aircraft as well as USN Ships. There is ZERO chance that Chinese Forces confronted by such overwealming U.S. Military Forces would do anything other than turn around and go home.

If the Chinese were so stupid as to enguage U.S. Forces they would be swiftly and efficiently blown out of the water. It is well known that U.S. Attack Subs which exist in great numbers in the Pacific track and follow or Ghost Chinese Subs and Ships from the moment they leave a Chinese Port...throughout their entire voyage until they return to port. Add to this the U.S. Militaries wiring for sound the entire Pacific Ocean as the USN has placed ocean floor listening devices as well as use Satellite Detection of Magnetic and Gravimetric Deveations. IR-Light, Deep Penetrating Radar which can allow the USN to see to the ocean floor all objects in the ocean and even the use of the current U.S. Constructed Tsunami Early Warning System of floating bouys which guage water displacement as well as wave heights.

China has a very inexperienced and low tech. Navy. The U.S. Navy is the most highly trained, inovative,high tech., lethal, proffesional War Tested Navy in the World with Hundreds of years of experience and traditions. One cannot even compare the Chinese Navy to the U.S. Navy as there is such a wide gap of disparity that comparison becomes ridiculous.

The USN. Pacific Fleet has been designed and stationed all across the region specifically for the purpose of not only defending Hawaii and the West Coast of the U.S....but it is also designed to protect the Pacific Shipping Lanes as well as be an overwealming Military Force capable of defeating any adversary in the Pacific. After WWII and the defeat of Japan as this caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands of U.S. Sailors...the USN. was built and designed to never again allow another countries Navy and Military to be able to attack any U.S. State, Territory, Ally or Interest.

That is the level of force that China would be against.

Split Infinity

reply to post by Kashai


When it comes to Chechnya...NOTHING surprises me. That region has so many issues it is difficult to either count or remember them. China does have Militant Muslim Groups that may be the culprits but from my experience I would BET it is the Chinese Intel. Services.

China loves to play down and dirty to an extent that neither the U.S. or Russia or even the former KGB would never allow itself to sink to. At least the U.S. and Russia had enough of a code that they would not throw their own to the wolves on a whim and although both the U.S. and Russia have done this...there were very high stakes involved and the operatives knew what they we getting into as well as the rules.

China will use it's people as cannon fodder as there are so manny of them. China will make deals with the Devil which has in the past meant many Chinese Civy's being at the mercy of a local warloard just because that warloard had a purpose and use for China and this has always been more valuable to the Chinese Communist Party then the safety of their own people.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by Dark Vengeance

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

www.dailymail.co.uk...

If you think that this Chinese Sub that is noisy as Hell was capable of doing this then you do not realise the lengths the U.S. Navy will go to ensure appropriations for desired new USN. Weapon Systems. If you take the date this occured you will see that several months after a Congressional Sub-Committee as well as the Senate Armed Forces Committee were both investigating what systems that were placed in the Defense Budget could be cut for savings.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


China is a country where unless one is a member of a certain family one cannot hold a government job, or any real authority or fame (case in point Yao Ming). You can not even work as a teacher if the government cannot, find a valid reason to conclude you are a member of this family. The only chance one has for work beyond that is menial labor. The majority of people who live in China fall under the definition of what we commonly define as peasants, they can read and write but in many cases beyond that .

Further, in respect to Japan Invading China during World War 2, I mean realistically speaking, there is no way even that could have been accomplished. If it were not for the fact that the country as a whole is much more divided that the central government is willing to admit. I mean, that today. in the CIA Fackbook, China claims an potential military force of 600 million + but cleary the equivalent did not work out in Word War 2.

During the war with the British, China and the US were allies, this evidenced by the involvement of the "Flying Tigers. " In the conflict vs Mao. Although, it is important to remember that in Treaty, in relation to the Nixon Accords, the United States does have military obligations to China, if there is ever a conflict between China and Russia.

The United States as offered by another member, has an incredible advantage technologically over Russia and China. Case in point was the Russian response in, respect to the Croatian/Serbian conflict (all the naval vessels they sent were outdated).



Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Kashai

All things considered China is threating global war, in relation to trying to control these islands. Again the cause of war is a matter of recourses. This could very well explain why the United States has begun moving its naval recourses into the pacific The current real threat to world peace is China. In its effort to expand in a world where all recourses have been indented and defined as belonging to a valid sovereign nation.

In this case Japan.

Any thoughts?


www.businessinsider.com

(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 13-1-2013 by Kashai because: modfed content

I propose we send all the CEO's and politicians go fight in the front lines in the next war since they helped build them up from their traitorous policies

reply to post by jacobe001


You comment produced in my mind the image of John Boehner in current US military combat outfit, fighting on the front lines as a officer. Technically that his name should actually be pronounced "Bainer", to me is hilarious.

The United States of America has its problems we are not perfect. In truth the idea that we want to wipe out this planet and are looking for an excuse is insane.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai


The current Chinese Military activity going on is a response of the Chinese Communist Party to a very major loss of face and embarrasment caused by one of China's own Admirals after a very indepth visit that the U.S. Military hosted that allowed a contingent of High Ranking Chinese Military Leaders to veiw U.S. Military Wargames that began in Norfolk and continued at numerous U.S. Military bases and Military R&D Centers.

This invite was a specific plan created by U.S. Military Planners and Stratagists. The plan was extremely sucessful and is credited with causing the Chinese to abandon their plan to forcefully reunify Taiwan by invading it.

This plan had many U.S. Lawmakers screaming that it violated U.S. laws that prohibit any countrys Military personel to either veiw or witness or even visit what is considered Ultra-High Tech. Military Proving Grounds or Research Centers. Of concern were a demonstration for the Chinese Military Leadership of the FEL or Free Electron Laser...the MEB or Microwave Emmiting Beam...and a third system that is unknown. These demonstrations had such effect upon the Chinese Military contingent that the demonstrations were said to have put the Chinese in a state of Shock.

The said State of Shock of the Chinese was confirmed after a Chinese Admiral under the lights and cameras of the World Media at Norfolk stated..."The United States has nothing to fear from the Chinese Military as after watching U.S. Naval and other U.S. Military Manuevers it is very aparent to us that the United States Military is Multiple Decades in advancement to the Chinese Military. As I think about Chinese Forces and Soldiers who must use Old and Outdated Military Equipment as well as the disparity in training of our Forces compared to the U.S. techniques and long practiced U.S. Navy operations of Carriers and Carrier Group Deployment...it makes me sad in that we are so far behind both from a training standpoint and technologically."

When this Chinese Military contingent came back to China the Communist Leadership was incensed. The Admiral was threatened with Jail time and if it were not for other Military Leaders backing him and his statements up...as the Communist Leadership thought he was lying...he would ahve been arrested.

This realization by the Chinese Communist Leadership of just how far behind they were was confirmed by both the Chinese Intelligence Agencies which are reluctant to give any intel. to the Communist Leadership that goes against what the Fictional Party Line is...as well as contacts with Russian Intelligence which confirmed U.S. capabilities...forced the Chinese to scrap their planned invasion of Taiwan and if you notice you no longer hear ANYTHING out of China about Taiwan.

After some time the Chinese Communist Leadership grew angry at such a loss of face and against the recommondations of it's own Military it has created the current problem in Japan. The first attempt to rile the U.S. by antagonizing Japan over the Island was a complete failure in that the U.S. COMPLETELY IGNORED IT. Since the goal was to get a responce out of the U.S. Military and a quoted low level Chinese Naval Leader stated..."It was embarrassing. We sail to Japan and come so close to the disputed Island area only to be ignored by the entire U.S. Fleet resulting in our sailing home."

This has created even greated embarrassment for the Chinese Communist Leaders and as a result they are pushing harder.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by jacobe001

 

You comment produced in my mind the image of John Boehner in current US military combat outfit, fighting on the front lines as a officer.

Technically that his name should actually be pronounced "Bainer", to me is hilarious.

The United States of America has its problems we are not perfect. In truth the idea that we want to wipe out this planet and are looking for an excuse is insane.

Any thoughts?

edit on 15-1-2013 by Kashai because: Modified content

If there is a benefit to the elite, in starting a war with China, I have no doubt in my mind that they would create a propaganda war to get our young men and women to do their bidding. The irony is that those that would be against it would be labeled traitors and commie supporters, while the same ones pointing the finger have been supporting China and building them up the last 15 years.

reply to post by jacobe001


China and the United States were allies during WW2. By interfering with Japan the US restored communist China and allowed Mao to continue as her Leader. Beginning a war with China today would negate the Treaties presented. An indication that could potentially exist is that these aircraft entering Japanese airspace, are potentially, the result of an internal problem within China's government.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai


You hit the nail on the head.

China's internal issues.

There is a very large growing rift between the Chinese Military and the Chinese Communist Leadership. The Communist Leadership is veiwed by the Chinese Military Leadership as Dull Witted and living in Fantasy Land.

Since the Military is responsible for China's defense it is growing increasingly incensed that the Communist Leadership is by their own damaged ego's...ordering the Military to play dangerous games that the Chinese Military KNOWS can only have a bad outcome for China.

The Chinese Military Leaders of which the Majority speak English and have visited the United States as well as have witnessed U.S. Military capabilities as well as were not happy when the Communist Leadership forced them to suspend Chinese/U.S. Military cooperation as the Chinese Military sees such cooperation and exersizes as a way to both prevent misunderstandings as well as allow China to be able to properly access U.S. Military capabilities.

As one Chinese General stated without revealing his identity...For the Communist Leadership to suspend Military cooperation with the United States only hurts China and our Military's ability to keep tabs on the U.S. Military and especially U.S. Pacific Fleet which is considered a clear danger to mainland China. He went on to say...Since China is just beginning to develop a Blue Water Navy...it is imparitive for our Military to be able to be guests of the U.S. Navy during excersizes which allows observations of protocols and techniques that the U.S. Navy has mastered and our Navy is just beginning to pratice and understand.

These statements were so vilified by the Chinese Communist Party that they went so far as to release a statement saying the statements were made by a Traitor and there is nothing that the Chinese Navy or Military needs to learn from the U.S. Military. And that China has sailed the seas for millenia with much greater experience than such a young country as the United States.

Statements and actions such as these by the Communist Leadership have angered the vast majority of Chinese Military Leaders as they know it is THEY that will have to do the fighting should hostilities break out and that for the Communist Leadership to make bold public statements about capabilities the Chinese Navy and Military does not have as well as purposely antagonize the United States especially when the Military knows that they have no chance against it.....just shows the Chinese Military how little they can trust the Communist Leadership from saying something that would paint them in a corner and possibly force them due to embarrassment to order Military action.

The Chinese Military Leadership has no illusions about what the outcome would be in the Pacific against a Super High Tech. foe that is battle hardened in both personel and leadership as well as has mastered the art of Ocean Warfare for over 200 Years.

Split Infinity

reply to post by yuppa

But what do they do about the passive sonars that are just listening with no pinging?

Passive is less effective than active when searching for submarines. The advantage is that active sonar produces "returns' that can be analyzed, the disadvantage is it pinpoints your position when employing it. Like the Australia submarine video I linked further back, there are ways to hide in the "background" during both.

And actually there is no place to almost hide underwater with the newer sats in orbit that can effectively see through the water.

If you could fill me in on this "see thru ocean water to find subs from space" technology I would be most grateful. Perhaps a link?

If China had any real legitimate claim to those islands, they should have filled suit though the international courts and/or the UN. Years ago, a US military reconnaissance aircraft was apparently caught in Chinese airspace. The aircraft was ordered to land and its crew were arrested. the US brokered a deal to release and American troops as well as the aircraft.


When the aircraft was returned it was taken apart and placed in boxes (the crew was released).

If Japan did the same thing. the US would not have any problems, with supporting that decision.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by intrptr


Although he is correct and I myself have mentioned this U.S. Satellite capability...it takes time to find the Subs over a wide area and such tech. is used when it is known approx. where a sub might be in a smaller area.

However U.S. Satellite Magnotometers as well as Gravometrics are tied into networked Supercomputers and can pinpoint enemy sub locations in real time. This tech. has just recently been refined.

Still the most reliable way to track enemy subs is using the U.S. Sea Floor Acoustic Net as well as a USN. Attack Subs ability to follow a foes sub right out of that subs home port as U.S. Attack Submarine Tech. which culminated with the development and launch of the Seawolf of which only one were built but it's design and tech. were used to build a cheaper Sub of almost equal capability.

The Seawolf is Super Secret and is said to be undetectable by sonar. It's cost was extreme and it was designed to track and destroy Soviet Boomers or Nuclear Missile Subs. In an excersize multiple Los Angeles Class Attack Subs were sent against the Seawolf and the Seawolf destroyed them all in Naval Wargames.

This is impressive as the Los Angeles Class Attack Sub has and still is other than the Seawolf...the best attack sub in the world.

Split Infinity

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty

That is one of the most uninformed illknowledgeable hopeful replies I have ever read.

"illknowledgeable"? Well, that is just like your opinion man.

Yah, it was an exercise. You do realize that torpedoes have active homing and that surface vessels use active sonar to home in on at their peril? The US vessels knew they were in no real danger so used it throughout. The aussies still avoided a submarine, two destroyers, two frigates and helicopters. Not bad.

Full power or not, sonar cannot penetrate islands. Terrain was very effectively utilised. Like the Eastern Pacific Region, no? Oh and shorelines are "cluttered" on sonar because of the surf. The bigger the surf, the more noise. Magnetic Anomaly Detectors are extremely close range so don't come into play here. The "Kill Photos" taken of the destroyer were at a range of several miles.

So China did it once and had to tell the world so what.

So... dead air craft carrier, thats what. You go ahead and play it down though. Luck had nothing to do with it. That entire carrier group is comprised mainly of ships that are tasked to prevent that very thing from happening at all times. It only takes one. Of course that Chinese sub was showing off. Wouldn't you?

Size and number of ships matters little anymore. And obviously Chinese subs are up to the task. We thought they weren't. Well guess what? Oh, it can happen again. Its not the big fat fancy hardware you need to look out for, its the little quiet guys that sit and wait for you to sail into their kill zone.

We have only discussed subs. Subs are just one aspect of an entire new thinking about the theatre of combat on the hi sea.

reply to post by intrptr


I saw you had to carefully pick your replies out of my post.Well at least you now know the truth.

This qoute must be yours.

"It's not denial.I'm just selective about the reality I accept"

G'Day Mate

reply to post by SplitInfinity

U.S. Satellite capability...it takes time to find the Subs over a wide area and such tech. is used when it is known approx. where a sub might be in a smaller area.

However U.S. Satellite Magnotometers as well as Gravometrics are tied into networked Supercomputers and can pinpoint enemy sub locations in real time. This tech. has just recently been refined.

I see. Thanks. Of course you realize that we are talking about thousands of surface vessels, bottom wrecks and other anomalies like underwater volcanos, whales, whatever. All that data has to be sorted like you say... Most helpful of course if you "know where to start". Big Ocean. Plankton blooms, Thermoclines and storms all add to the din. If I was a sub, I would ride under another vessel like a cargo ship to move around.

Still the most reliable way to track enemy subs is using the U.S. Sea Floor Acoustic Net.

You mean SOSUS? It was designed for earlier times and primarily intended to monitor Soviet Submarine technology of the Cold War. Todays volume of traffic and other tactics like smaller quieter diesel subs can defeat this technology. The network itself is aging and mostly arrayed around the western coast of the US (to thwart Soviet nuclear vessels).

Times and technology have changed. If China focuses on quantity over quality with their new quieter class of diesel submarines they will simply overwhelm the few very expensive boats we would employ to counter them with. And that is just the subs. Chinese subs. What about the Russians? And all the other newer hardware?

We could just nuke the whole of Asia I suppose, but then theres that "MAD" thing.

Originally posted by rockymcgilicutty
reply to post by intrptr

 

I saw you had to carefully pick your replies out of my post.Well at least you now know the truth.

This qoute must be yours.

"It's not denial.I'm just selective about the reality I accept"

G'Day Mate

reply to post by intrptr


The Soviet Union focused on Quantity over Quality...that country is now called Russia, a country that surrendered all other nations, respective to the Warsaw Pact.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by intrptr


Intrptr...I have to tell you that the probability that the U.S. Carrier Group as well as the various U.S. Submarines that are always on all sides of such a group as well as the CONSTANT U.S. Satellite surveillance that is mandatory to protect a Multiple Billion Dollar U.S. Military Inverstment as a U.S. Carrier Group has the sea ahead of it's path observed well before it sails into it.....well the probability that this Chinese Sub which is Noisy, Low Tech. and almost impossible not to be detected by the Carrier never mind the U.S. Subs and Satellites...could ever penetrate a Carrier Groups defensive perimeter is ZERO.

This Chinese Sub was allowed to penetrate the Carrier Group. If it was able to do this then we would all see heads rolling as you can't retain the Command of Multiple Billions of U.S. Dollars floating if you allowed a Chinese Sub that close.

The Carrier Commander would be sacked. The other Captains of USN. Ships and Subs tasked with Carrier Saftey would be sacked. Hell the Admiral on the Joint Chiefs would be sacked!

No one lost their job. This event allowed the Navy to avoid cutting money out of their budget. It was done on purpose...no doubt.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by Taikun
Another Gulf of Tonkin incident waiting to occur? I will not rule out a false flag from the Chinese this time around, for a full scale military grab for the islands. U.S. will join Japan, where Russia will back China. A world war in the making.

China would not start a war any time soon. My belief is that they are trying to intimidate the other Pacific nations. The US would back Japan with the full might of our military, and China would be in ruins within weeks. Russia would never back China, and if they did they too would be annihilated, it would take most likely a few months for both nations to surrender, with almost no US casualties. Both countries combined could not dent the US Navy, they would be blockaded, bombed, and become withering hulks. They would be forced to repay huge reparations, and would be a huge coup for the US and the US economy.

Never happen.

To be fair, US military' might is overpowering by leaps and bounds. China would be hesitant to start anything, but they just wanna stir things up. When you say that Russia will be obliterated, don't forget what Japan, China, US & Russia have in common, is a mutually assured destruction via Nukes. All 4 nations have plenty of subs with nukes on board. Also, once Russia shuts down the natural gas pipelines to the West, all of Europe will freeze. Just read what happened 3-4 years back when Europe didn't pay their bills on time.

From a financial standpoint, China can't start anything with Japan nor US because they do so much business together. China holds what, 2 trillion $USD? They can just dump those $USD and send US into stone age. The world stocks will plunge. It will start a total chaos around the world. It's a lose, lose for all.

All in all, I do not think anything major will occur. U.S. can't afford to start a major conflict anyways.

Come to think, the world governments need to re-monetize the debt, maybe a few million dead bodies will do the trick, hmmmm.