China Newspaper Says.....

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

www.dailymail.co.uk...

reply to post by intrptr


Japans navy can easily take care of this on their own. That is a fact.

reply to post by Bone75


Considering the military is Highly resistant against EMP with their shielding I do not see any problems with that. But here is a question. Its made by boeing only. So.....unless they get stolen..i do not see them hitting US ships anytime soon.

reply to post by Kashai


it would make sense that instead of trying to start a world war over these resources , they should pool theirs and try to get us of this oil gig and onto something new !

but nawwww lets kill each other instead so that we can drive our cars to work !

Wonder if this is in connection with today's deployment of 3 Navy destroyers ...

3 guided-missile destroyers deploy from San Diego

SAN DIEGO (CNS) - Three San Diego-based guided-missile destroyers departed Monday for a western Pacific deployment with the Nimitz Strike Group Surface Action Force.
The Navy reported a couple of months ago that the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz, which lends its name to the strike group, will remain behind at its homeport of Everett, Wash., for a couple of months to deal with maintenance issues.

The USS Higgins, USS Stockdale and USS William P. Lawrence left Naval Base San Diego and will meet up with the Everett-based USS Shoup at sea.

SOURCE

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by _BoneZ_

 

Ok tried to change the title.

The fact of the matter is China by this action is threatening world peace.

Any thoughts?

edit on 13-1-2013 by Kashai because: added thoughts

Who is threatening world peace? China has as much a claim to these islands as Japan does. Is Japan going to start acting like the Israelis and expect us to bail them out when they get into trouble that they have caused?

some historical perspective is needed, after all, China is a land with many thousands of years of coherent history, thats THOUSANDS.

every asian peoples on chinas periphery paid tribute to china, since the bronze age. tianamin means heavenly, the chineese rulers were the rulers of all under heaven, and thought of themselves the centre of the world, lol, they called them selves the middle kingdom.

there was an implicit understanding by ALL asian peoples until (relatively) recent history that China allowed other peoples to flourish, or not, at its whim. something we westerners (im kiwi) dont understand too well, often thinking japan to be the historically dominant nation. (china gave japan writing)

the chineese emperor regarded the said islands in question as chineese, it was regarded as a rich fishing ground, . and for thousands of years, noone would dare question that.

the previous century is known as the century of shame in china. during this time china was subjected to unequal trade demands, the opium wars and other western conspired incidents. we know about the collapse of the royal family, the nationalists, japaneese invasion, civil war and eventual communist take over.

what we fail to grasp is the CCPs initial break with the past, territory outside its immediate control was of no concern, but with the slow rise of china from the great leap forward to todays china researching wave particle superposition, different prioritys are emerging.

china is not a monolithic unthinking beast, its vast peoples very much do have opinions, usually they are concerned with family, and jobs, but one thing guaranteed to get their attention is any supposed slight, either by western nations, or Japan.

to understand what china thinks of japan, take a john wayne movie where he is fighting japs, multiply it by the rape of nanking, add in chinas friend koreas experience with the japs, and you may have an inkling of the scope of enmity that exists there. note japan was a tributary state to china in terms of cordial relations in the heavenly city, until the west showed up that is, where japan got with the program, i.e outfitting its navy with english advisors, where as the chineese emporer told england they had nothing it needed.

moving right along, china is aghast that the west forgets japans recent history. the islands in question represent much like hong kong, macau, taiwan, kashmir, tibet and north korea a barometer of chinas growth. make no mistake, they will grow large enough to naturalize those islands and much more besides.

to china, its role as the ruler of all under heaven is its predestination, the middle kingdom after all has a periphery, and japan is on it.

japan is most definity in the wests corner, as is south korea, phillipines and singapore, aus and nz go with out saying, despite what some on ATS may stir. whilst that may seem impressive, china outweighs us all, and not to mention the chineese communities in this part of the world, lol, america locked up 100 thousand japs in ww2, we would have to lock away MILLIONS. so hopefully you start to get the logistics side of things.

but here is the rub, china wont attack anyone, ever. why, because they dont bloody need to mate.

this is the people that gave us sun tzu and the little red book. in which i will quote for my ending

tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat
strategy without tactics is the slow route to victory

oh, and only a mad man would fight a land war in asia.

reply to post by southseasavage

Thanks for that rundown. I agree with most of it. Westerners haven't really taken the time to understand he Chinese. Because of their 5000(?) year history they look at events a little more patiently than we do. We want to resolve issues quickly, the Chinese can wait. That is to their advantage.

Edit: Oh by the way... Welcome to ATS.

reply to post by Dark Vengeance

Thanks for bringing that. People who say that China represents no threat to the US whatsoever are delusional. It doesn't take but one submarine to defeat an aircraft carrier, the mightiest weapon in the US arsenal. Nowadays with new and improved technology, not only to subs but other weapons armaments like super sonic sea skimming missiles, smart mines and rocket torpedoes, the large slow surface target is obsolete. There just hasn't been a conflict on that level to prove it yet.

This is a situation much like WWII when the worlds Navies thought Big Ships were invulnerable to attack. The aircraft carrier proved otherwise. Now the world has turned again. Big Ships (even carrier groups) are sitting ducks to simple WWII era technology diesel submarine and the tactics they employ.

Your daily mail article about the USS Kitty hawk being surprised by a Chinese Song class diesel sub is just a portent of how that would go in a shooting war. Heres another about an Aussie boat defeating the US Navy in a drill that reflects the same outcome.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by Dark Vengeance

 

Thanks for bringing that. People who say that China represents no threat to the US whatsoever are delusional. It doesn't take but one submarine to defeat an aircraft carrier, the mightiest weapon in the US arsenal. Nowadays with new and improved technology, not only to subs but other weapons armaments like super sonic sea skimming missiles, smart mines and rocket torpedoes, the large slow surface target is obsolete. There just hasn't been a conflict on that level to prove it yet.

This is a situation much like WWII when the worlds Navies thought Big Ships were invulnerable to attack. The aircraft carrier proved otherwise. Now the world has turned again. Big Ships (even carrier groups) are sitting ducks to simple WWII era technology diesel submarine and the tactics they employ.

Your daily mail article about the USS Kitty hawk being surprised by a Chinese Song class diesel sub is just a portent of how that would go in a shooting war. Heres another about an Aussie boat defeating the US Navy in a drill that reflects the same outcome.

Ahem. Super sonic sea skimmer missiles. ALL MISSILES THAT ARE ANTI SHIP ARE ALMOST ALWAYS SUPERSONIC. The SeaRam is a interceptor of those and can intercept them out from 0-11 nm and in single and in waves almost all of the time,and that PER MISSILE not the entire system. The much vaunted SUNBURN is its favorite victim by the way.
Now the Ballistic missile carrier killers. Not as accurate as they would have you believe. China has YET to hit a MOVING TARGET with them that was Actively trying to evade it. After the ascent stage those missiles are primarily locked onto a specific point. You just constantly move until the threat is gone. Now they are working on Guided MIRVS but they have to have Sats to do it with currently. The sats will be the first target when they detect a Ballistic carrier killer launching,and as anyone knows destroy the guidance you nullify the threat.
Now the ROCKET TORPS AKA super cavitating torpedoes have a VERY limited range and generally are dumb fire. 5 NM at last test. they are VERY noisy and give away the position of the user.

Look i know the US is not invulnerable. But the navy knows full well what is out there and has countermeasures for them. That Sub popped up in 2007 do you think they do not have a way to track them now?

reply to post by yuppa

That Sub popped up in 2007 do you think they do not have a way to track them now?

Like you said, they counter the counters and so on. Never ending process. You did watch the Aussie boat video thru? It describes tactics of hugging shorelines to hide in the active sonar return clutter. That is true any day you wish. The tactics of subs and their stealth is only improving with time. On the other hand a surface target as big as an automobile factory is only standing out more with that same passage of time. There is no place to hide on the surface...

Like circling the wagons in the wild west. America no longer corners the market on stealth...

www.popsci.com...

"New" Chinese Sub

reply to post by JBA2848


I agree that China's motive is all about money and new markets as well as natural resources. It is very unlikely that China would start a War or even follow through with some of it's threats. And if one looks at the current issue between China and Japan...this is all for show and a way for China to guage the current U.S. administrations reactions.

China would not be so stupid as to place itself in a position of being a Military Target of the U.S. as this is what would happen if China were to actually act Militarily against Japan or the disputed islands. China is well aware that the United States has an obligation to defend Japan and China also knows that it would suffer a very crippling Military defeat if it was to challenge the U.S.

Even just using the current stationed Naval Force in the Pacific the U.S. could without reinforcements do incredible damage to any Chinese Military force in the region or do massive damage to China itself. This would also cause the U.S. to acy economically against China...something that China could not withstand given China's dependence upon U.S. Markets. As well the USN. could cease all Chinese incoming and outgoinf shipping in the Pacific...something the Chinese Military would not be able to counter.

In the end one must look at the way that China probes and acts in a manner to seek out possible weaknesses in either the U.S. Military or U.S. resolve. China can do this as long as it's probes are limited to words and threats. The moment China acts Militarily is the moment that the Chinese Communist Party will wish it listed to it's own Military Leaders and Military Intelligence as both these groups have told the Communist Party that under no circumstances should China get into a Military confrontation with the United States as the U.S. Military could inflict massive destruction of the current Chinese Navy that China has placed such a high priority upon to grow.

Such massive losses would set China back Militarily multiple decades.

Split Infinity

reply to post by NotAnAspie


You have to understand that although I am a Patriot as well as have first hand knowledge of our Militaries capabilities due to my sometimes JOB...I only state what I know to be a fact and if I make a mistake I will be the first one to admit it.

I am not some U.S. Military cheerleader and neither am I one of these...U.S. Good...Everyone Else Bad...type of person. I will NEVER overstate U.S. Military capabilities and in fact most of the time I am understating it.

You brought up the Taliban and I am very well informed on this issue. The Taliban cross the Pakistan boarder and stay there in Winter as these ancient tribal regions of Pakistan are controlled by Tribes that have been living there in the same manner for thousands of years. These Tribes and Tribal Leaders have an ancient code of behavior in that if anyone is granted the title of GUEST...these Tribes are HONOR BOUND to protect these GUESTS.

The Pakistan Military will not even enter these areas and only CIA drones or secret Covert U.S.Special Forces personel of the highest level of skill are allowed to recon such areas. What is needed is understanding of what exactly is going on in the minds of these Tribes as well as how a Special Forces Specialist can operate without being the target of a wrathful Tribe.

The Taliban who become GUESTS give money and supplies to these Tribes to obtain GUEST status. It was not understood until recently that GUEST status could also be granted to U.S. Special Forces Personel if they knew how to go about it. Since these Tribes are living in the Stone Age...entertainment is rare and is also a highly desired comodity. A U.S. Soldier can also ask to be a GUEST as long as they speak the language, sport a beard, offer not only money but in particular Medical Supplies to a Tribe and then they will most likely be granted GUEST status even if there are already Taliban GUESTS living with that Tribe.

A U.S. Soldier then after becoming a GUEST...declare to have a BLOOD ISSUE of HONOR between themselves and a Taliban GUEST. The Tribal Leadership having very little in the way of entertainment is only too happy to grant such a claim as LEGAL as to the laws of the Tribe. Then a Tribe sanctioned fight to the death usually using Knives will have a date set. If the Taliban member should attempt to run...the Tribe will hunt them down and Kill them. There are never any Taliban that have any desire to fight one on one with a member of the U.S. Special Forces. And after a Special Forces member becomes a victor...much Honor and Special Favor is showered upon them and if they are Muslim they may even be Honored with becoming an member of the Tribe.

The point here is that fighting the Taliban and other Terrorist Groups is a form of Warfare that takes time and the most one can hope for is the destruction of Terrorist Groups ability to attack the United States. This by and by has been accomplished.

When I speak about major U.S. Military Weapon Systems or Secret Ultra-High Tech. U.S. Military abilities I am just skimming the surface. The true level of such abilities is well beyond most peoples understands or even ability to believe. These type of weapon systems have been deamed well Above Top-Secret and are ment for Last Use should the U.S. find itself in a dangerous War. Such weapons would never be used in the Military actions that the U.S. has had over the last 12 years but should Iran be so stupid as to Nuclear Blackmail it's neighbors in the event it obtains a Nuclear Weapon...given the fact that the vast majority of the population of Iran desires peaceful relations with the U.S....such Super Secret U.S. Military Weapon Systems might be brought to bear against specific Iranian Divisions such as the Quds Force...that are loyal to the Iranian Old Religious Guard.

The High Tech. Weapons would give the U.S. Military the capability to render innert the Iranian Military Forces that are not so loyal to the Old Guard as such forces would be needed to protect Iran after a massive U.S. Military campaign. Such weapons used might be High Powered Non-Nuclear EMP's of which there are both large and small as two of the small are said to be able to fit into the internal bomb bay of the F/A-22 Raptor. This would give the USAF unprecidented strike capabilities as the F/A-22 could target Old Guard Command and Control so that it might be possible for the Iranian Democratic Party might use the oppertunity of the Old Guards inability to contact or command it's Military to seize power.

Split Infinity

First I would like the thank everyone for there responses and am happy the topic has produced so much conversation, from seemingly what is people throughout the world.

First let me point out that it is Japan that has begun firing the tracers. If anything it stands as a warning for China not to continue violating Japans airspace. That is what China is doing, Such an act does fall under the auspices as an act of war and that means if China does not stop, at some point in time in the future Japan will begin responding with real bullets (perhaps even anti-aircraft fire). That land, within the context of all reason belongs to Japan and would reiterate the request for Evidence from those who claim otherwise.

The United States of America has a treaty with, the Country of Japan..

This article is not being covered by the News Media here in the United States as the Title states "China Newspaper Says", while the article exists on the Internet here in the US the major media outlets are not covering it at present. To be clear not enough has happened yet to make in an international incident.


If anything such a matter as this is perhaps being discussed in "think tanks" which makes it at present something interesting to look at..

In the United States of America and back in the 70's. A supper computer was used to preform an analysis of what would happen if a full scale nuclear war occurred. Between the The Soviet Union and The United States.

The results showed that in a Nuclear Exchange between Russia,China ,United States, Europe and Australia would result, in a world wide nuclear winter. Apparently it would last about a 1000 years. What this means is that the surface of the planet would be effectively sterilized. The oceans MAY fair better but the possibility exist that the only living things on the planet after WW3. Would be those animals that live in oceanic trenches and the Bacteria that looks like snot deep under the Earth. The Sun would be completely blotted out so there would be no plants or plankton. As our sun will die in about 5 billion years the chance of intelligent life ever existing on earth again is probably impossible.

All that considered the United States is still obligated to come to the aid of friendly Nations who's territories are being violated, just as China felt obligated to enter North Korea.

Text of Article 5 of the U.S.-Japan Treaty

With respect to the representatives of the various nations who's members post here, how would respond in a similar situation.? Accusing the US or the members who post here as being war mongers leads to consideration that some of you do feel an obligation to address formal treaties of your respective countries?

China's actions in this regard is provocative and had Japan or the United States engaged in similar behavior of over Chinese territory they would probably order the aircraft to land and arrest the pilot (if he or she refused they would shoot it down. Under the circumstances it is apparent that Japan and by proxy the United States, are being very patient at this juncture.

The war mongering is what China is doing and there problem is that the United States does not appease other
nations.

Any thoughts?

PS: When I say “any thoughts” I mean I sincerely would like to hear from all of you.

reply to post by Nettlas


Numbers mean nothing unless the U.S. was to invade China and this will never happen. Despite all these Chinese Troops...China has no real ability to Force Project them. If one cannot get troops safely to the battle then huge numbers of troops mean nothing.

The U.S. Naval Pacific Fleet is the most powerful fighting entity on Planet Earth. It is capable by itself of both containing or defeating any possible Chinese Military Action including the attempt of a Chinese Invasion of Taiwan.

In the event China was to invade Taiwan...the U.S. Navy as well as USAF bombers out of Diego Garcia, Guam, Japan and a few other covert sites would obliterate all and every single Chinese Ship or Troop Carrier crossing the Northern Tip of the South China Sea between China and Taiwan. USN. Navy Subs which are always stationed in that area would have a field day sinking Chinese Ships and and latter Chinese reinforcements would be destroyed at will by U.S. Carrier Groups.

The current Chinese Carrier Killer Missile cannot penetrate U.S. Carrier Missile defense as the New Designed and new Fueled SM-3 ABM which is also an Anti-Satellite Missile is based upon every USN. Aegis Cruiser. Carrier defense will become completely impenetrable once all USN. Carriers beginning with the new Ford Class and then to be installed on all Nimitz Class and Aegis Cruisers...Free Electron Laser Systems or FEL. The FEL will be Nuclear Powered and will be able to vaporize hundreds of targets at the same time with a Beam refire rate of less than a second. But the current SM-3 ABM is so accurate and so long range as it can destroy Missiles or Satellites traveling at over 18,000 Miles Per Hour at Orbital Distances. Such speed and accuracy allows the SM-3 to very easily destroy any Carrier Killer that the Chinese have as it is even capable of destroying a much more advanced U.S. version of the Chinese Missile.

So as long as China cannot get their troops to the fight...their troops are worthless. Besides...5,000 Soldiers aboard an outdated slow Chinese Troop Transport stand ZERO chance of making it to shore against a Sea and Sky rules by U.S. Military Forces. All it takes is one U.S. Missile or one torpedo to sink that Chinese Ship.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by yuppa

 

That Sub popped up in 2007 do you think they do not have a way to track them now?

Like you said, they counter the counters and so on. Never ending process. You did watch the Aussie boat video thru? It describes tactics of hugging shorelines to hide in the active sonar return clutter. That is true any day you wish. The tactics of subs and their stealth is only improving with time. On the other hand a surface target as big as an automobile factory is only standing out more with that same passage of time. There is no place to hide on the surface...

Like circling the wagons in the wild west. America no longer corners the market on stealth...

www.popsci.com...

"New" Chinese Sub

Yes That tactic has been used by all militaries in various ways that have subs. But what do they do about the passive sonars that are just listening with no pinging? And actually there is no place to almost hide underwater with the newer sats in orbit that can effectively see through the water.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by yuppa

 

That Sub popped up in 2007 do you think they do not have a way to track them now?

Like you said, they counter the counters and so on. Never ending process. You did watch the Aussie boat video thru? It describes tactics of hugging shorelines to hide in the active sonar return clutter. That is true any day you wish. The tactics of subs and their stealth is only improving with time. On the other hand a surface target as big as an automobile factory is only standing out more with that same passage of time. There is no place to hide on the surface...

Like circling the wagons in the wild west. America no longer corners the market on stealth...

www.popsci.com...

"New" Chinese Sub

That is one of the most uninformed illknowledgeable hopeful replies I have ever read.

Ok first aussie sub.

What the video failed to state.That under U.S law the Navy cannot use active sonar at full power anywhere near the coast.Nor are they allowed to trigger super low frequency sonar just about anywhere anymore unless under attack or threat.Why because it will not only harm sea life it will kill it.Second in the video did you hear any referance to M.A.D Magnetic Anomaly Detector.That system is unbeatable until they learn to make engines out of plastic.

Next the Popsci link

Again they failed to mention two types of detection.Passive Sonar and M.A.D.I will say that they did mention that submarines are all about being quite.Like the OHIO class sub's (known as black holes) but the article even said the Chinese aren't there yet.The video of the Chinese sub popping up .Is pure propaganda I have to admit people will get lucky.But U.S subs have been going under Foreign fleets since the 70's.We just don't pop up.The reason is we have done it so often it would be stupid to give away that ability,because after reviewing the data,it would be easy to find a way to counter.So China did it once and had to tell the world so what.

Now on to the pictures of the new Chinese sub.What a joke ,most imporant it is not quite.Next factor to take into effect is it is tiny 200 feet it is a midget sub by U.S standards.Los Angeles Class Fast Subs are 362feet long and 33 feet wide there are 55 of these active Ohio class subs are 560 feet long and 42 feet wide there are 18 active.Virginia class subs 337 feet long x 34 feet wide 7 active. Seawolf class subs 353 feet long x 40 feet wide 3 active.These are some of the subs in current active service,I have not included reserve or inactive subs at this time.They are all capable of hitting sea or land based targets (like costal missle sites).Want to know something else the are all nuclear powered,That means quite,it is a level the Chinese are a long way from catching up to.

reply to post by Backfire


Really now....you should be careful not to get personal as well as make false statements about another ATS Member who you neither have no knowledge of or even garnishing knowledge from that Members posts to make a proper accessment of that Members possible intelligence, education, experiences and connections to people and groups that are linked to this topics subject.

A person doing so as you have done...only makes them look like an uninformed ass.

If you wish to debate in a civilized manner then leave your bigotry, hatred, assumptions, anger and outright stupidity of making your posts personal at the door.

If you can do this then I will be only too happy to open that door for useful and interesting conversation that may be useful to all.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I've been away all day,one thing I want to add if it has not been covered.Has the issue been adressed that China is projecting their power in two different places.Both the east China sea (Japan) and the South China sea (Vietman,,Malaysia,Philippines ect.)?

reply to post by SplitInfinity



I have heard that the Raptor can also be equipped with lasers

I myself have been know to get involved

Back in the 90's I worked on the problem in Groggy in the Chechen Republic. This was where the Chechens entered Russia proper, then tried to solicit assistance from a town that bordered China. Moslem's were the majority on both sides of the boarder. Some time after the incident a Chinese passenger jet was blown up by a Chinese national who resided in the general area we are discussing.

China, Russia and the United States are engaged respectively, with China sending troops on their side of the boarder, Russia dealing with Chechen militia and the United States engaging as it has.

Consider the problem...

There were Chinese citizens prepared to provide aid and comfort to Chechen Militia who had invaded a town boarding the two countries.


Any thoughts?