How Soon Will The Rapture Take Place ?

This is why i think the premillenialist view is mistaken.....

and actually LDP used a part of it to prove the theory. but if you read the verse....whats the first theory that comes to mind....for me its the amillenialist POV.

24"But in those days, following that distress,
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[a]

26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens


ok and then the verse right after that...(man i hate to cut and paste) anyways it shows that the second coming is right after that....which what would this verse need to be here for if it werent meant for us.

28"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.

now here is the funny thing...if you go a verse up before all this.....it says....
22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

to me this indicates that we are here....for the trib. when he talks about the elect, and being on your guard it is all in reference to when the chapter closes with the second coming of christ which says to be on your guard because he will come like a thief in the night.

Kind Regards,
digitalGrl





[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

I don't know why you continue to twist the scripture.
Clearly the "Rapture" and the "Second Coming Of Christ" are two totally different events.

Clearly the bible teaches that at the rapture, the dead and living saints will be "Caught-Up" and "Rise" to meet the Lord in the air, he does not come down to the earth as he does at the time of the second coming when he will come down with the armies of Heaven and "Judge" the Beast and all those that have accepted his "Mark"

1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

"THE RAPTURE" (The Church, Body Of Christ, not the "JEWS")
16 For the "Lord himself " (no armies) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort F11 one another with these words.

There is no mention of Heavenly Armies here, and clearly this meeting takes place in the air.


The Second Coming"

2Thess 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(The Elect or "Jews")

Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER "HIS ELECT" from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mr 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together "HIS ELECT" from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

2that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way

The "HE WHO NOW LETTETH"(ALLOWS) Is the Holy Spirit.

It is only the Godhead (The Father ,Son and Holy Spirit) that has the power to "LET" (allow) the mystery of iniquity to work in the earth.

"Until "HE" be taken out of the way.
The "HE" also refers to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit has to be Taken out of the way, "Removed From The Earth" Before the wicked one is revealed.


And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (After The Holy Spirit Is Taken Away) whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is "AFTER" the Holy Spirit (The Church) is removed from the earth, that the "Man Of Sin" (The Anti-Christ/The Beast) is revealed and shortly thereafter is destroyed by Christ and the Armies of Heaven.


The Rapture happens in the "AIR".

"The Coming Of Christ" refers to his Second coming when he will return and come "DOWN" to the earth.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by Lastday Prophet]

There is no such thing as the Rapture--at least not pre-trib. Read Matthew chapter 24.

However, it is certainly not impossible for God to protect His people during the Tribulation.

Am, it is true that the word "Rapture" does not appear in the bible, however "The Rapture" refers to the event in 2Thess 4: where the saints of God are "Caught-Up" to meet the Lord in the air.

The Biblre has proven itself to be accurate, here is a link to some verified forfilled Prophecy.


www.parentalguide.com...

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
The Biblre has proven itself to be accurate, here is a link to some verified forfilled Prophecy.


www.parentalguide.com...

Discounting the self fulfilling prophecies and the vague ones that could apply to any time period, we have something concrete the writer states:

There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. Incredibly, this prophecy was written in the days of spears and arrows, yet today it is true. That’s 7 out of 7.

More incredibly, none of those passages have anything to do with human weapons that can destroy the world. Zech 14:8-12 isn't even about destruction at all. That's 0.

LDP-

Are you also to say..as I just got done reading these 4 pages..that to be a christian you have to have the gift of healing??? All gifts come from the same spirit like Paul says. Just wondering..Would like your answer on this one.

By the way, as stated above..1Corinthians 15:52 says at the Last trump,etc, etc (7th Trump) (we meet the Lord in the air) That would mean that we will be here for the first 6 Trumps. Depending on whether you consider that part of the tribulation we culd be "raptured" during the tribulation


Also referring to your word "rapture", it comes from raptue (Greek) I think and it means displacement....Have to check that again..

And how can you say we will meet God in the air if he's not here??....it somewhere close to earth..we don't really know exactly how close.-

Merc, all "Mature" Christians have the ability to lay hands on the sick and see them recover, Mark 16: 15-18 discribes the basic atributes of all mature christians. Laying hands on the sick is not a "Gift" but a atribute.

The "Last Trump" does not refer to the "FINAL" set of Trumps that will be blown, there are a series of trumpets that will be blown before the final seven prior to the Second Coming Of Christ.

The "Rapture" is a meeting of the dead and living saints that takes place in the "AIR" or "HEAVENS" not near the earth.

The "Gift's" of the spirit are listed in 1Cor 12:1-11, The "Atributes" are described in Mark 16:15-18.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

1Cor 12:1 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the "gifts of healing" by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The difference between laying on of hands and "Gift's" of healing is this.

"GIFT'S" of Healings usually works along with the Gift of "Working Of Miracles" and produce healings such as the blind recieving their sight, the lame walking, the deaf hearing, cancers being healed, aids being healed and other healings that are on the level of Miracles.

Most that operate in "Gift's Of Healings" are those that work in the Five-Fold Ministries, although the Lord can annoint anyone with any gift at anytime he chooses.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave "some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

Laying on of hands usually consist's of the more common healings such as, coughs and colds, headaches, aches and pains, and other less serious and less life threatning healing.

[edit on 11-9-2005 by Lastday Prophet]

You are wrong, there are two resurrections,
the first is the "Rapture"
quote: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

''Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.......these are the OLD TESTAMENT PEOPLE.........they knew not JESUS CHRIST.
ONLY AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.......WAS DEATH crushed.....Jesus Christ Crucified...He destroyed DEATH ....all will be resurected in the END OF THE WORLD......


quote///
As the apostle Paul joyfully declared: ...Christ has been raised from the dead,
the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.(HERE, THE FIRST FRUITS
ARE THE OLD TESTAMENT PEOPLE)
For as by a man came death, (ADAM being the first to taste death...RESULT FROM SIN...DEATH OCCURED...SPIRITUALLY AND BODILY)
by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.(BY A MAN?Jesus CHRIST BEING THE NEW ADAM....A SERVANT OF MAN HE BECAME..STILL TRULY GOD AND MAN.....
For as in Adam all die,(ADAM ...SIN BRUOGHT DEATH...AND SO ALL MANKIND DO EXPERIENCE DEATH...BODY RETURNS TO EARTH(ASH)AND THE SOUL WHICH WAS GIVEN TO MAN (Holy spirit that was breathed into man)
so also in Christ shall all be made alive...(Christ DESTROYED DEATH..LOOK BELOW)
"O death, where is your victory?(HERE DEATH IS DESTROYED)
O death, where is your sting?" (DEATH IS NO MORE IN CHRIST...WE HAVE THE RESURRECTION AND THE JUDGEMENT TO COME..whilst before there was NO RESURRECTION )
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! (1 Corinthians 15:20-22 and 55-57). (JESUS CHRIST DESTRYED DEATH ....HE TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE SUFFERING TO DESTROY DEATH....THE CURSE OF THE OLD)

The FIRST TO GO TO HEAVEN with Christ was the thief on the RIGHT HAND SIDE OF JESUS CHRIST.....who accepted that he sinned and believed in Jesus Christ.

There are NO TWO resurrections!
The one you are looking at is the resurrection of the people before Christ...AD
They are waiting Judgement......they have YET TO BE JUDGED...UNIVERSAL JUDGEMENT....meaning the WHOLE OF THE WORLD.....Beginning with Adam and Eve......They have yet to taste the TRUE GLORY of the Heavens.

Quote///
The Lord thus describes this event: "Do not marvel at this: for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [of the Son of God] and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:29).

The Scripture is quite clear that even the elect will suffer on earth during the tribulation period and that for their sake this time will be shortened (Mat. 24:21-22).

Some will not be able to withstand the suffering and God will allow ''for their sake''to have their life, cut short(for their own sakes)........all shall taste DEATH.


When certain people went to see elders(monks)and asked them about the end of the world,the Saint would reply that in the end of times,some people will not be able to withstand the terrifying events that will be occuring(prosecution of the Christians at the end of times)and for this reason God will send them a small illness for their sakes...read below the prophecy of Elder Lavrenty....
FROM) THE PROPHECIES OF STARETS [ = ELDER ] LAVRENTII OF CHERNIGOV
here

At the end of times not many people will remain faithful to the truth.....

Extreme weakening of the faith. Although Christ's teaching will be generally known, people will become indifferent to it, so much so that "when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" (Lk. 18:8).
According to Saint Paul, this will be the time "when people will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires they will choose teachers who will tell them just what they want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and go after fables" (2 Tim. 4:3-4).
In other words, close to the end of the world people will become very cynical about Divinely revealed truths and absolute moral values. They will only listen to what sounds interesting or pleasing.....more below

End of the World

For true Christians as Flyers fan has also mentioned, THE RAPTURE has no significance.
Our DEATH can come at a time that we do not expect.....so we should always be ready.

IX
helen

[edit on 9/12/2005 by helen670]

''Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.......these are the OLD TESTAMENT PEOPLE.........they knew not JESUS CHRIST.
ONLY AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.......WAS DEATH crushed.....Jesus Christ Crucified...He destroyed DEATH ....all will be resurected in the END OF THE WORLD......

Wrong, the scripture says in Thess, "The DEAD IN CHRIST" shall be raised first,(this includes ALL christians, old and new testament) How could you be dead in christ if you did not know him ?

As the apostle Paul joyfully declared: ...Christ has been raised from the dead,
the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.(HERE, THE FIRST FRUITS
ARE THE OLD TESTAMENT PEOPLE)
For as by a man came death, (ADAM being the first to taste death...RESULT FROM SIN...DEATH OCCURED...SPIRITUALLY AND BODILY)
by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.(BY A MAN?Jesus CHRIST BEING THE NEW ADAM....A SERVANT OF MAN HE BECAME..STILL TRULY GOD AND MAN.....
For as in Adam all die,(ADAM ...SIN BRUOGHT DEATH...AND SO ALL MANKIND DO EXPERIENCE DEATH...BODY RETURNS TO EARTH(ASH)AND THE SOUL WHICH WAS GIVEN TO MAN (Holy spirit that was breathed into man)
so also in Christ shall all be made alive...(Christ DESTROYED DEATH..LOOK BELOW)
"O death, where is your victory?(HERE DEATH IS DESTROYED)
O death, where is your sting?" (DEATH IS NO MORE IN CHRIST...WE HAVE THE RESURRECTION AND THE JUDGEMENT TO COME..whilst before there was NO RESURRECTION )
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! (1 Corinthians 15:20-22 and 55-57). (JESUS CHRIST DESTRYED DEATH ....HE TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE SUFFERING TO DESTROY DEATH....THE CURSE OF THE OLD)
The FIRST TO GO TO HEAVEN with Christ was the thief on the RIGHT HAND SIDE OF JESUS CHRIST.....who accepted that he sinned and believed in Jesus Christ.

Wrong again, Christ alone was the "Firstfruits" No one else was ressurected at that time.

There are NO TWO resurrections!
The one you are looking at is the resurrection of the people before Christ...AD
They are waiting Judgement......they have YET TO BE JUDGED...UNIVERSAL JUDGEMENT....meaning the WHOLE OF THE WORLD.....Beginning with Adam and Eve......They have yet to taste the TRUE GLORY of the Heavens.

Wrong, if there were not two resurrections why would he say blessed is he that hath part of the "FIRST RESURRECTION", for them the "SECOND DEATH"(resurrection) hath no power!

The Lord thus describes this event: "Do not marvel at this: for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [of the Son of God] and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:29).

The resurrection of those that have done good, and those that have done evil do not take place at the same time.

The Scripture is quite clear that even the elect will suffer on earth during the tribulation period and that for their sake this time will be shortened (Mat. 24:21-22).


Some will not be able to withstand the suffering and God will allow ''for their sake''to have their life, cut short(for their own sakes)........all shall taste DEATH.


When certain people went to see elders(monks)and asked them about the end of the world,the Saint would reply that in the end of times,some people will not be able to withstand the terrifying events that will be occuring(prosecution of the Christians at the end of times)and for this reason God will send them a small illness for their sakes...read below the prophecy of Elder Lavrenty....
FROM) THE PROPHECIES OF STARETS [ = ELDER ] LAVRENTII OF CHERNIGOV
here

That is a false doctrine, nowhere in the bible does it say God will send sickness upon the righteous or "Elect" that go through the tribulation.
Further, The prophecy of Elder Laventy is not in the bible and he is a "False Prophet"

Extreme weakening of the faith. Although Christ's teaching will be generally known, people will become indifferent to it, so much so that "when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" (Lk. 18:8).
According to Saint Paul, this will be the time "when people will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires they will choose teachers who will tell them just what they want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and go after fables" (2 Tim. 4:3-4).
In other words, close to the end of the world people will become very cynical about Divinely revealed truths and absolute moral values. They will only listen to what sounds interesting or pleasing.....more below

The above is a mixture of truth and the said prophet's personal interpretation.

End of the World

For true Christians as Flyers fan has also mentioned, THE RAPTURE has no significance.
Our DEATH can come at a time that we do not expect.....so we should always be ready.

signature
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (St. Matthew 16:26).
A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, "You are mad; you are not like us."
-- St. Anthony the Great
He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant;but the people who know their God shall stand firm....Daniel 11.32.

Again, someones personal interpretation.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by Lastday Prophet]

There is only one FINAL JUDGEMENT FOR ALL........

Last day prophet///
You call yourself a prophet.........why do YOU dismiss others that are truly living in the footsteps of Christ?
With what HUMILITY do you make this claim?
What makes your interpretations be the truth?
The Church ''Early church'' teachings are interpretated by the help of the 'Holy Spirit'' as Christ Himself said it would..........Jesus Christs own WORD said this..

God send certain afflictions on all......
quote///
"for He maketh the sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Mt. 5:45);

Saints are held in reverence......
"... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16)

Communion of Saints: When Christians depart this life, they remain a vital part of the Church, the body of Christ. They are alive in the Lord and "registered in heaven" (Hebrews 12:23). They worship God (Revelation 4:10) and inhabit His heavenly dwelling places (John 14:2). In the Eucharist we come "to the city of the living God" and join in communion with the saints in our worship of God (Hebrews 12:22). They are that "great cloud of witnesses" which surrounds us, and we seek to imitate them in running "the race set before us" (Hebrews 12:1). Rejecting or ignoring the communion of saints is a denial of the fact that those who have died in Christ are still part of his holy Church.

quote///
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us". (1 John 1:8) Therefore, no matter how righteous a man might be, when he departs from this world, the Church accompanies his departure with prayer for him to the Lord. "Brethren, pray for us," the holy Apostle Paul asks his spiritual children. (1 Thes. 5:25)



Quote////...Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive... "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! (1 Corinthians 15:20-22 and 55-57).

This is a victory of death.....In Adam we experience death.....
In Christ(second Adam)....we have conquered DEATH by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who was the first to experience eternal Savation for all mankind..

1.17-18. And He laid His right and upon Me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the First and the Last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive unto the ages of ages, Amen; and I have the keys of hades and death.



"It is as if He said: Fear not, John, for I am Life and the source of Life according to My Divinity, but I have taken on death according to My Humanity, so as to give eternal life to those who believe in Me, but I have risen by My Divine power, and I am alive, as you see, and My Life will not be cut off by death, like those who were resurrected from the dead and again died, but I am alive to the ages of ages. And I have the power to take out of hell and deliver from death, in accordance with the prophet: The Lord killeth and giveth life, He bringeth down into hades and raiseth up again (I Kings 2.6)." (Patriarch Anthimus)

above quote

quote///
"But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen... For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised" (I Cor. 15:13, 16). "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain" (v. 17). Apart from the hope of the General Resurrection, belief in Christ would be in vain and to no purpose; it would be a vainglory. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept" (I Cor. 15:20). And in this lies the victory of life.

of them that slept?
The Old Testament people.


"For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth; and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth" (Heb.12:6).

In order that we change our ways and live as the Lord wishes for our sake.

The above is a mixture of truth and the said prophet's personal interpretation.

And your opinion is what holds the TRUTH?

Elders of the faith receive revelation in order we correct our lives.....
This is well known in the Old and New Testament.........

Fortune tellers and the like will tell you certain things, but this will not benefit the SOUL .......these to an extent are called 'false prophets''!

On the Priest hood.........
. "So the apostles and elders came together [in council] to consider the matter" (Acts 15:6)

It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27).

The resurrection of those that have done good, and those that have done evil do not take place at the same time.

And by this , do you mean that at the ''End of 1,000 yrs'' ?

IX
helen

Last day prophet///
You call yourself a prophet.........why do YOU dismiss others that are truly living in the footsteps of Christ?

How can you be living in the footsteps of Christ when you make false statements and post someones erroneous interpretation of scripture ?

These statements that you made are false and contrary to what the scripture says.

"There are NO TWO resurrections!
The one you are looking at is the resurrection of the people before Christ...AD
They are waiting Judgement......they have YET TO BE JUDGED...UNIVERSAL JUDGEMENT....meaning the WHOLE OF THE WORLD.....Beginning with Adam and Eve......They have yet to taste the TRUE GLORY of the Heavens"

"The resurrection was composed of Old Testament Saints"

"THE FIRST FRUITS ARE THE OLD TESTAMENT PEOPLE"

"RESULT FROM SIN...DEATH OCCURED...SPIRITUALLY AND BODILY"(spirits are eternal)

"For true Christians as Flyers fan has also mentioned, THE RAPTURE has no significance.
Our DEATH can come at a time that we do not expect.....so we should always be ready"(The Rapture has Great Significance, it is the Blessed Hope)

"for this reason God will send them a small illness for their sakes...read below the prophecy of Elder Lavrenty....
FROM) THE PROPHECIES OF STARETS [ = ELDER ] LAVRENTII OF CHERNIGOV" please post the verses in the bible that state this

""It is as if He said: Fear not, John, for I am Life and the source of Life according to My Divinity, but I have taken on death according to My Humanity, so as to give eternal life to those who believe in Me, but I have risen by My Divine power, and I am alive, as you see, and My Life will not be cut off by death, like those who were resurrected from the dead and again died, but I am alive to the ages of ages. And I have the power to take out of hell and deliver from death, in accordance with the prophet: The Lord killeth and giveth life, He bringeth down into hades and raiseth up again (I Kings 2.6)." (Patriarch Anthimus) "

Where did that translation come from ?

Most of what you have posted does not have any Biblical foundation, it is yours and anothers personal interpretation and contrary to sound doctrine.

Last prophet/

DEATH came as a result of SIN.......The falling away from God.
"He condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3)

SIN.....came bodily death and the closeness of being with God was severed....

Adam was called "to dress and to keep" the garden of Eden (Gen.2:15). After the fall of man cherubs became the keepers of paradise: "So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden a Cherub, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:24)

In order to be accepted ......one must be babtised of water.

As the Lord Himself said, in His discourse with Nicodemus, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5)

The Savior commanded His disciples to teach the Faith and to baptize all nations (Matt. 28:19), for as descendants of Adam all are in need of rebirth. This rebirth is accomplished only through Baptism, which is why all men seeking salvation, regardless of sex, nationality, or any other condition, must be baptized.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: [17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Mat 3:16-17)
Baptism delivers human nature from the curse(curse is DEATH-SIN), and we are made able to reach God, to know Him, and to become like Him in moral purity. (See Bl. Theophylact, commentary on Matt 3:15)

www.orthodox.net...

In the Old testament Circumcision was the Babtism........

n the Old Testament, circumcision was the prototype of the Sacrament of Baptism in the New Testament, by which the believer enters into a new covenant with God (Col. 2:11-12). If circumcision was performed in the Old Testament on all males, adult and infant (being prescribed for infants on the 8th Day after birth), so much the more, according to the grace of the new covenant, the Sacrament of Baptism should be administered to infants. Having become a member of the Church through Baptism, infants can receive Holy Communion and from the first days of their life on Earth, they can become vessels of the Holy Spirit. Holy Scripture itself speaks of the baptism of whole families by the Apostles (Acts 16:14-15; 30-39;
1 Cor. 1:16),

In the NEW.....IT IS BABTISM........In Babtism you DIE and are Born again in the Resurection of JESUS CHRIST.
As St. Paul says, we are called upon to confess one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism (Eph. 4:5).

Being a Christian does not guarantee you HEAVEN .
Being a Christian does not mean you just wait and all things will be given to you.....
If one is a Christian and is not repented of his bad ways, he surely wont be received into Heaven...
If one is not a Christian and not Babtised......well, then it is up to God to judge and not MAN!

Before Christ men could only conjecture about the Truth since they did not possess it. With Christ as the incarnate divine Logos [Word of God] the eternally complete divine Truth enters into the world. For this reason the Gospel says: "Truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

Pearls of Wisdom From the Church Fathers

On Spiritual guidance......

A very early example of spiritual direction is found in the Book of Acts. Saint Philip is traveling across the desert, from Jerusalem to Gaza. He meets an Ethiopian who is sitting in his chariot and reading the Old Testament Book of Isaiah -- a book that contains many of the messianic prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Saint Philip is inspired to say to the Ethiopian: Understandest thou what thou readest? (Acts 8:30). To which the man replies with an important question of his own: How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him... (Acts 8:31).

Because the pastor speaks the word of God, then do whatever he teaches, pay diligent heed, O Christian, and do it. Concerning this the Apostle says,

'''Obey them that have rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they must watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you'' (Heb. 13:17).
www.roca.org...

It is like when Noah built the ark.....those OUTSIDE were drowned......WHY?
Because we all need spiritual guidance .
Last prophet, you are only deceiving yourself thinking that an opinion is all that is needed to read the scriptures.....

"Whosoever will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me" (Mark 8:34). This is not just difficulties and suffering, which on their own do not become the Cross. "To take up your cross" is to reject your self, defeat love of self, learn to live for others, learn courage, patience, and to faithfully follow Christ.


"I will build My church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt.16:18).
The true Gospel in the Church shall always stand.........even up until the end of the world.

IX
helen

Um, sorry how the post above turnedout....dont know what i did.
:shk:

helen

Helen, you totally missed my point, I agree that physical death was a result of adams sin but not spiritual, Spirits are eternal.

RESULT FROM SIN...DEATH OCCURED...SPIRITUALLY AND BODILY"

There are no scriptures in the bible that state that adam died spiritually

"for this reason God will send them a small illness for their sakes...read below the prophecy of Elder Lavrenty....
FROM) THE PROPHECIES OF STARETS [ = ELDER ] LAVRENTII OF CHERNIGOV"

There are no verses in the bible that state God wil send a small illness, if you have found one that states that, Post It!

Just because someone makes a statement such as that one, does not make it true unless you can find a verse that states that fact. The Elders statement is not found anywhere in the bible.

Last day prophet, I thought I did post it!

To bear one's Cross.......meaning to accept all that is in your path.
Whether it be good or bad..accept it with humility.

The Lord spoke about His yoke imposed on every one who follow Him (cf. Mt. 11:29-30).

Last day prophet.....Lets say we follow Christs Teachings to the letter......In doing so, we must abandon all sinful habits......if someone wrongs us, we must pray and forgive them,if someone cheats us, must also forgive them,if someone is angry with us, we must show them love, in doing all this, we accept all that befalls us......Just as Jesus Christ taught His followers to do.

Now, I'm not saying that I do these things(we fall, we get up again,and again and again), but sometimes we need to turn the other cheek and pray for strength in being able to accept all that befalls us....without prayer and proper guidance from Spiritual people who did lead these sort of lives, abandoning everything because The Lord came first above all things in their lives......we see this in many lives of Monks in the early church/and in our time......many were prosecuted(even now, in certain parts of the world) but they turned the other cheek, bearing a Cross for the LOVE they had/have for God.....
God said you cannot serve two masters.......(as I'm sure you know)

We are not perfect and God knows this..... although our soul wants to be perfect,our bodies(flesh)are weak and only with prayer and fasting(Christ fasted 40 days in the desert after He was babtised..and then He was tempted by the Devil)can we calm our worldly attachments/"Love not the world, nor the things that are in the world" (1 John 2:15) ......but our lives can be perfect within ourselves, if we accept all situations..... knowing that, what we come across is truly for our benefit....we become a stronger person in body and soul.....we learn to hate what is really in the world (MATERIALISTIC)and begin to work on our salvation...it never ends, but each time we encounter some sort of bad situation,we learn to deal with it better each time....(I'm sorry, but i'm not so good with words..many lives of Elder/monks living in the desert as hermits did this.....they suffered greatly because they LOVED God ....and as Jesus Christ said, ''My Kingdom is not of this World''...and that is what we strive for...

Adam/Eve spiritually fell away from God in the garden of Eden because they did not REPENT of their sin,(which means,to miss the mark)Instead of Adam taking the blame for eating from the Tree(pre-figuration of Christ on the Cross)...He simply blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpant ...which means that since God made the Serpant,the blame goes to God....it's a vicious circle.
God, in asking Adam where he was(not that God did not know)was actually asking Adam to admit to his mistake of breaking the Law(one commandement ,do not eat)God was being as is a Father is to a child when the child has done something wrong....I guess, it's like asking for an apology .....Since Adam nor Eve did repent,but blamed one another, the EARTH changed because Adam and Eve changed....they now were not as close to God as previously before the Fall.....CORRUPTION of the Body occured(they were made immortal)and so DEATH came into the world(no death prior to the fall)..DEATH caused other changes to occur,Spiritually they knew GOOD AND BAD ...
QUOTE///
The disruption of human nature by ancestral sin — the disruption of soul and spirit in man, which now has an attraction to the sensual, is clearly expressed in the words of the Apostle Paul, "For the good that I would do, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Rom. 7:19-20). Man constantly suffers from "pangs of conscience" when realizing his sinfulness, his criminality. In other words, it is impossible for man, by his own powers, without the interference or help of God, to restore his damaged and disrupted nature.
Therefore, it was necessary for God Himself to come down and dwell upon the earth. The incarnation of the Son of God was necessary for the restoration of the fallen and corrupted nature of man, to save man from damnation and eternal death.
www.fatheralexander.org...

By the fall into sin, men destroyed their internal harmony — the unity of spirit, soul and body — they upset their nature. There was no more unity of purpose, direction, and will.

The mind, will and activity of men turned away from God to material creation, from the heavenly to the earthly, from the unseen to the seen (cf. Gen. 3:6). Deceived by the wiles of the tempter, man by his own will "is compared to the mindless cattle, and is become like unto them" (Ps. 48:12).
"For the good that I would do, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Rom. 7:19-20)

Last day prophet/ I think we both confused ourselves, Angels are BODILESS SPIRITS/they have no Flesh.....they are immortal..... whilst humans were made to be immortal/ and made in the Image of God, our passions(desire of worldly things)

Helen, you totally missed my point, I agree that physical death was a result of adams sin but not spiritual, Spirits are eternal.

I agree....spirits are eternal.....SOUL....was the breath that God breathed into MAN ....the Lord "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7

QUOTE///
Discussion About Man.

man is made up of three parts consisting of body, soul and spirit. Apostle Paul says, "For the Word of God is quick (alive), and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart"(Heb. 4:12).

1. BODY. The body of man was created by "God of the dust of the around" (Gen. 2:7), and therefore belongs to the earth. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shall thou return" (Gen. 3:19),
The needs of the body are various, but in general they all come down to the satisfaction of two basic instincts: 1) the instinct of self-preservation and 2) the instinct of continuing the race.

HERE

I'm sorry this has gone off topic.......
IX
helen
EDIT SPELLING MISTAKES....RE READ MY POST!
HOPE THAT MAKES SENSE...


[edit on 9/14/2005 by helen670]

[edit on 9/15/2005 by helen670]

LDP

if you are just going to argue back and forth with helen and slam comments around about not truely walking in the footsteps of christ, i think you should do it over u2u with her or move it to the debate forum. you keep making topics like this and making outlandish statements just so you can rack up points, and people (including myself) are getting a bit annoyed with it. you arent even on the topic anymore. you are talking about aspects of premillenialism..not when is the rapture going to take place.

your post title was in the form of a question that would seem to suggest to me that you wanted to hear people's points of view. instead all you have been doing is stuffing your beliefs down peoples throats and if they dont agree, no matter how kindly they try to put it, you accuse them of distorting scripture, not being spiritually mature, or not walking the footsteps of christ. it seems to me that you gave it that title to lure people in only to further your agenda.

ive tried to be really kind to you , let you say what you want to say, and approach you as calmly and as humbly as i can.......but i dont appreciate your manipulation of the forums at this website. i couldn't care less whether we agree or disagree on the subject. its your attitude.

Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
How can you be living in the footsteps of Christ when you make false statements and post someones erroneous interpretation of scripture ?
These statements that you made are false and contrary to what the scripture says.

NOT NICE!

Helen loves Jesus and is reading the Word of God with
great prayerful zeal. Frankly, it would be very easy to
turn these words right back at YOU.

Paraphrase - John 6 - You must eat the flesh of the Son of Man
otherwise you don't have eternal life within you.' Do you do this
Lastdayprophet? It is very clear and very straight forward. If not,
then I guess YOU don't understand scripture and aren't a true
Christian. (see, it can be turned right back at you).

That's the problem with fundamentalism ... and I mean fundamentalism
of ANY religion. To them, everyone is going to hell and isn't a true
Christian, Muslim, Jew, (whatever) unless they see God and worship
Him exactly as they do.

Parden me while I throw up!! blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! :shk:

There are 1 billion Catholic Christians and 1 billion 'other assorted'
Christians on this planet. They all definately don't see scripture
the same. John 6 is a great example. If you read it straight forward
as 'bible alone' Christians say to ...... well, all I can say is that most of
those 1 billion 'assorted other' Christians just aren't doing what they
should be and they aren't going to heaven. Saying anything other
than that is - to quote you Lastday -' false and contrary to what the
scripture says' Guess that means you can't claim to follow
in Christ's footsteps since you don't eat His flesh. *sarcasim*

Let's be nice, shall we?






[edit on 9/15/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
Clearly the "Rapture" and the "Second Coming Of Christ"...
Clearly the bible teaches....

Uh ... no ... not so 'clearly' ...

"THE RAPTURE" (The Church, Body Of Christ, not the "JEWS")
16 For the "Lord himself " (no armies) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

The Second Coming"
Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER "HIS ELECT" from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Take a look Lastday .... see what you typed in the first part ??
Christ descends from heaven with a SHOUT ... the VOICE of the
archangel ... and with the TRUMPET of God. These are BIG and
LOUD events. Christ descending from heaven with a shout will
definately get everyone's attention. The voice of the archangel?
Oh yes!! The Trumpet of God? You betchya'. This is definately
Christ coming again. Everyone is going to know about it. This
can't be a 'secret rapture' ... it's too big and too loud.

What is Christ going to do?? Drop from heaven, shout, have
the archangel make announcements and the heavenly trumpet
blare ... and then he says 'oh gee, I didn't actually touch the
planet so I'm just kidding. Just pretend like I'm not here.
Everyone continue about your business. Ignore the Trumpet
of God and my shouting and hanging out up here in the clouds'.

And then some years later He comes back, drops from heaven,
shouts, and the Trumpet of God sounds again for the 'real'
second coming?? Like anyone would believe Him the second
time He comes for a second coming? They'd look up and say
'well, is it real or is it memorex?' Yeah. I don't think so. :shk:

No secret rapture.
No third coming for Christ.

Everyone should be getting ready for their own personal
meeting with God at the end of their earthly pilgrimages.
I'm sure it'll be MUCH sooner than any alleged Rapture.
THAT meeting is what time would be better spent discussing
... preparing to have a personal meeting with The King of Kings
and judgement.





[edit on 9/15/2005 by FlyersFan]

DigitalgrlLDP

if you are just going to argue back and forth with helen and slam comments around about not truely walking in the footsteps of christ, i think you should do it over u2u with her or move it to the debate forum. you keep making topics like this and making outlandish statements just so you can rack up points, and people (including myself) are getting a bit annoyed with it. you arent even on the topic anymore. you are talking about aspects of premillenialism..not when is the rapture going to take place.

Your assumption is foolish, I could care less about the points, I don't even use them. If you notice my point total continues to grow because I don't use points. The only time I ever used points was to access the way above top secret forum and I only did that once.

Second, if you are becoming annoyed don't come back or continue to post here, that is what I do, if I consider a thread to be foolish or inaccurate I don't even waste my time posting there. You are free to do the same.

Third, many of you refuse to here the truth and continue to misinterpret scripture, and post your own opinion.

Everytime I respond to a reply I always use scriptual references, the same cannot be said of many of you that merely post your interpretation.

Forth, many don't even take the time to read my opening statements, if they did, it would end a lot of the foolish questions.

Here again are the facts from page one.
They establish the fact that the saints will be taken fron the earth "During" the tribulation period. I will break it down further as to clarify each section.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It says in verse 34, not to be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkeness and if we do not, That we will be aware of that coming day.

In verse 36 it says that if we watch and pray, we can escape all the things coming upon the earth.
Verse 36 can be translated to mean that the saints will be taken out of the earth and "escape" the "Great" tribulation period.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The saints will go through the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period, but will be Raptured at that point.

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which "came out " of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4 ? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the " beginning of sorrows "
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ( the Beast technology along with the cameras wiil be in all the major cities, there will be nowhere to hide, that is why we are told to "flee into the Mountains" where they cannot see)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect?s sake those days shall be shortened.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. ( this week refers to a seven year period in which the Beast will break his agreement with the nations after 3 1/2 years, This is the time the Rapture will take place.

Dan 12:1 ? And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, (The Seven Year Tribulation Period ) such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (During The Seven Years) thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,(Those that are taken up in the "First Resurrection", The "Rapture")

and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Those that will be judged at the "Second Coming Of Jesus")

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. [wise: or, teachers]

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Today we are nearing the end of the "Increase of Knowledge"
which started at about 1900.

The word "Rapture" does not appear in the Bible, but it refers to this event:

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51? Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed? 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.,
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [grave: or, hell]
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 ? Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

That resurrection is only composed of "Old Time Saints" and "All Christians" on the earth at that time, some will be saved during the "Great Tribulation" and go on to live on the earth during the 1000 years of peace.

Many of you hath not an ear to hear, I have posted scriptures that clearly show that there will a "Meeting In The Air" The Rapture

And that at Christ's Second Coming he will come down to the earth with the armies of Heaven and destroy the Beast and his armies.

The Bible clearly states that there will be a "First Resurrection", which involves the "Righteous Only"

And that there will also be a "Second Resurrection", which involves the "Wicked".

What Part Don't You Understand ?

Many of you just stubbornly refuse to accept the truth, I did not post my personal interpretaion, but I posted the scriptures that state the facts


In Luke 21 we see that the day will not come upon us unawares, that if we are prayful we can escape the things coming upon the earth.


[edit on 16-9-2005 by Lastday Prophet]

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
many of you refuse to here the truth and continue to misinterpret scripture, and post your own opinion.

That is exactly what 'many of us here' could say about you.
You misinterpret. You post your own opinion. (Well ... actually
you post the opinion of the rapture cultist Darby from the 1800's.)

many of you that merely post your interpretation.

That's what you are doing. Posting your interpretation. When
looking at scripture 'straight on' ... it is obvious that there is no
second coming of Christ in a secret rapture, and then a third
coming of Him for judgement. Your claim that people are 'just'
posting their interpretations and not backing up with scripture
is silly. Everything has been backed up with scripture. In fact
it can be better said that everything has been stated IN
SCRIPTURE and then backed up with our own opinions.

'Rapture' just isn't there.
No easy out. No escape.
Christ even said that he
wouldn't pray for his followers
to 'escape what was to come'
but he prayed that they would
'endure' what would come.

Christ's words. That about says it all.