Scientists Find Ancient Hobbit-Sized People

Originally posted by mpeake
Can you beleive the hype this is getting? I mean, I am totally amazed at the discovery, but that's because this kind of stuff interests me. But I am hearing about this on the radio, talks shows, local newspapers, all over...The discovery is pretty significant in that is shows that Africa is now no longer considered the birthplace of life since some of the specimens found range from 90k yrs old to 18k yrs old. Get ready to buy some new science books kids

No, it doesn't harm the "out of Africa" theory. These are fairly modern people (and this is what is surprising) with traces during the past several ice ages.

The are "siblings" to us. Think about the difference (say) between a Great Dane (modern human) and a wolf. These people apparently evolved from homo erectus (our ancestor) but were isolated and took a different evolutionary path. We could have probably bred with them if they were still around.

They aren't Pygmies (pygmies are homo sapiens.) They aren't apes or orangs or anything else. They're humans (like Neanderthals)... only different, eh?

Exciting find. It's been interesting to watch the Biblical extremists try to deal with this one (One group suggested that these little people were actually "demons.")

These little guys were pretty smart! In the San Jose Mercury article, it says that they made very sophisticated tools and lit campfires. They probably came to the island on rafts too. It also says that because there were legends among the locals about these creatures, it's possible that they were still around up to the 1500's, when the Dutch arrived.

www.mercurynews.com...

This has made me more interested in the reported sightings & search for the Orang-Pendek.

And it's this kind of discovery that points out my oft repeated statment that no scientist worth a darn ever said the fossil record or understanding of the process of evolution is complete. There is always going to be something that pops up to throw everything into a new realm.

Could this be middle earth?

Shall we name it Froddo?

Nah,

I think its getting so much 'hype' becuase of the 'hobbit' bit actually. Kenyathropus was an entire new genus and it didn't get this much hype. It probably also has to do with them being in the same genus as humans, and therefore not 'merely' an ape. A tendency torwards 'dwarfism' seems to happen with most classes of animals living on small islands. I think its been noted in dinosaurs and its certainly something that happens with elephants. Interestingly, this island also has dwarf elephants on some of these same islands.

What would be really mind boogling is if they are still around on some of these or other islands, tho I guess technically thats as likely as finding the dwarf elephants too. I have to wonder at the legal status of non sapiens members of homo. If sapiens lived on the island too, would they be removed? Would contact of any kind be allowed with them? And might they be able to interbreed with sapiens? Its probable that Neanderthal didn't, what kind of genetic info can be gleaned from these people? And I don't even want to start to think of the cultural/ethnological possibilities of studying actual cave men (ok, sapiens is a cave man too, but still...)

I think it's quite possible that they could still be around, but it would be a disaster for them if they were discovered and contact established. They would probably catch Measles or Chickenpox from us and get wiped out, like other native tribes in the past.

Pretty cool stuff. I'm suprised that this became public information.

Originally posted by Nygdan
What would be really mind boogling is if they are still around on some of these or other islands, tho I guess technically thats as likely as finding the dwarf elephants too.

Although they could have interbred. I would dearly love to check the genetic material of the islanders and do some measurements and assessments of bones.

I have to wonder at the legal status of non sapiens members of homo. If sapiens lived on the island too, would they be removed? Would contact of any kind be allowed with them?

We were talking about this at dinner tonight. It's an intriguing issue... just what would their status be, particularly if they could be taught to speak one of our languages and use some of our technology.

And might they be able to interbreed with sapiens?

Yes.

Its probable that Neanderthal didn't, what kind of genetic info can be gleaned from these people?

Actually, Neanderthals apparently DID breed with h. sapiens.

And I don't even want to start to think of the cultural/ethnological possibilities of studying actual cave men (ok, sapiens is a cave man too, but still...)

Just sit back in your armchair... all we anthropologists would be buying tickets to the area, posthaste, to get our hands on the culture and the people and the artifacts!

I'm pretty sure the current though is that the Neandethal did NOT breed with homo sapiens.

Actually current thought is, that at the very least, there was SOME interbreeding
between Sapiens, and Neanderthalis. There have been some fossils found that
support this idea.

In Portugal

This find was extremely
controversial

I believe there was also a potential hybrid child found in the middle east..
Byrd? do you know anything about that one?


I think the question is, did we wipe them out of existance, or assimilate them?

Amazing discovery. I hope they're still alive today, I doubt they are but I want to make fun of them by calling them hobbit's.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Nygdan
What would be really mind boogling is if they are still around on some of these or other islands, tho I guess technically thats as likely as finding the dwarf elephants too.

Although they could have interbred. I would dearly love to check the genetic material of the islanders and do some measurements and assessments of bones.

Yeah, it'd be great to have some more material like that.

I have to wonder at the legal status of non sapiens members of homo. If sapiens lived on the island too, would they be removed? Would contact of any kind be allowed with them?

We were talking about this at dinner tonight. It's an intriguing issue... just what would their status be, particularly if they could be taught to speak one of our languages and use some of our technology.
And if any rights are accorded to them above those of mere animals, it brings into question if other apes should be given any rights, at least 'above those of animals'. It also brings up, in a tangental way at least, another issue. If one does recognize a difference between sapiens and other human co-geners, based on a phylogenetic perspective, why not recognize a difference between different developmental stages of individuals. Ontogeny may not, strictly speaking, recapitulate phylogeny, but there is certainly the possibility of something like this affecting politics. In a sense it'd be unavoidable if these half-brained spawn of erectus are still around. Prolly a moot point tho.

Actually, Neanderthals apparently DID breed with h. sapiens[/quote]
I think that there isn't, however, any dna evidence to support this tho. THe mitochondrial neanderthal dna samples were, I beleive 'inconclusive' (ie didn't find evidence expected of interbreeding, tho mitochondrial DNA has questionable value for that purpose), but that the paleoanthopological evidence, namely supposed 'hybrid' specimins seems to suggest it might've happened. Why are you stating so positively?

Just sit back in your armchair... all we anthropologists would be buying tickets to the area, posthaste, to get our hands on the culture and the people and the artifacts!

Indeed, forget about the Yanomono. This would be a culture that makes the Tierra del Fuego natives look positively advanced.

More material on this (the story here is really very nice and discusses the issues in an intelligent and accessible way):
www.ruggedelegantliving.com...

and here's a wholllllleee section on it from Nature (which was the first magazine to publish about this):
www.nature.com...

Originally posted by Nygdan
And if any rights are accorded to them above those of mere animals, it brings into question if other apes should be given any rights, at least 'above those of animals'.

Yes, it certainly does (I tend to be for animal rights to a limited extent.) Remember that earlier this year there was some talk of putting the chimps into the hominid category. If they discovered living members of this hominim group, then it has potential to really upset the whole legal system.

It also brings up, in a tangental way at least, another issue. If one does recognize a difference between sapiens and other human co-geners, based on a phylogenetic perspective, why not recognize a difference between different developmental stages of individuals. Ontogeny may not, strictly speaking, recapitulate phylogeny, but there is certainly the possibility of something like this affecting politics. In a sense it'd be unavoidable if these half-brained spawn of erectus are still around. Prolly a moot point tho.

...but only if you could get them to vote Republican (joke!!!)

Actually, Neanderthals apparently DID breed with h. sapiens

I think that there isn't, however, any dna evidence to support this tho. THe mitochondrial neanderthal dna samples were, I beleive 'inconclusive' (ie didn't find evidence expected of interbreeding, tho mitochondrial DNA has questionable value for that purpose), but that the paleoanthopological evidence, namely supposed 'hybrid' specimins seems to suggest it might've happened. Why are you stating so positively?

There are some very distinct differences in h. neanderthalis and h. sapiens and in areas where they are found living in proximity (large site in Portugal), there are individuals who have traits of both species. It's generally accepted that, while this wasn't common, it did happen.

getting back to the "hobbits"..................
i heard one of the scientists on Australian radio yesterday, he stated that there is evidence to prove that these hobbits shared the island with homo erectus (or it might have been homo sapiens, can't remember clearly), and that the skeletons were surrounded by the kind of tools one usually finds near primitive homo sapien skeletons. he also mentioned the possibility of these ceatures migrating as far away as Australia.

also these "hobbits" were not destroyed by the ice age, it is believed that the specimens found by the Australian scientists were destroyed by a volcanic eruption which occured on the island.

The Hawaii island of Kauii (and other isles) has evidence of a small race of people, called the Menehune. I have been to the Menehune Ditch, it was odd, for sure. It is rumored that they still live deep in the forests of Kauii.

Here is an interesting link about the Menehune
www.nwlink.com...

I've seen these little guys before, on a Sumerian Fresco.

I think this proves conclusively that they are the original inhabitants,

and we are the ANNUNAKI GIANTS !!!

Once upon a time i was on a message board like this. Not as good. And there was a guy who swore that TLOTR trillogy was based on a true story. I think his mad rantings got him chucked off the site if i remember.

what if the present day 'homo sapiens' are in fact a mixture of the neanderthals, homo floresiensis etc.

Would that explain why we have different races? e.g.

Germanic/nordic/slavic caucasion = pre-human species + neanderthal (tall, broad features, red, blonde hair)

Chinese, South east asians = pre-human species + homo floresiensis (short, clever, dark straight hair)

Australian/Dravidian = pre-human species + ? (latter day version of astralopithecus?)

African = pre-human species + ?

[edit on 3-11-2004 by aryaputhra]

Originally posted by aryaputhra
what if the present day 'homo sapiens' are in fact a mixture of the neanderthals, homo floresiensis etc.

Would that explain why we have different races?

The problem with this is that all the genetic evidence indicates that there isn't any validity to the concept of 'race' and that these things don't actually exist in humans as a biological concept.

Like has been noted above, the one genetic study on neanderthals didn't show any evidence of interbreeding. Of course, thats just one study. All the genetic evidence seems to indicate that all modern humans are derived from one ancestral population, rather than multiple different rounds of interbreeding and hybridization with other types of homo.