Has the right to bear arms become a symptom of allowing a government to become a force to be feared,

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posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 06:53 PM
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I am genuinely interested in what ATS members think regarding the crisis in US society regarding gun control and want to learn more so please forgive my ignorance as an interested outside who simply wants to understand more.

As an outsider It is not my place to dictate to anyone in the US whether they should have the right to bear arms or not. I believe that it is a self perpetuating phenomena, ie with gun access so prevalent It becomes necessary for the average citizen to have the right to defend themselves, so with more guns in circulation more guns are necessary. I don't nor ever have owned a gun but that is due to geography, If I lived in the US I feel that I most certainly would own and train to use a gun for personal use.

What interests me most however is reading the many threads here regarding Gun ownership rights of the average citizen and the real reasons why this right is so fiercely guarded. I am very curious, and this question is largely geared to a US audience.
Who do you really want to protect yourselves from?
Other gun owners / criminals and people who would do you harm, or a tyrannical Government?

I have seen many people support the 'Keeping Government In It's Place' theory and wonder...
Doesn't it bother you that the system of democracy and concept of personal freedom that your forefathers fought so hard to forge, has been allowed to get so out of your control that you fear the very democracy that defines you as a nation.

Thomas Jefferson's famous quote comes to mind,



"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."


What I am really asking is, has Government been allowed to become so unaccountable and out of the hands of the people that law abiding citizens no longer feel that it works in their best interest, have the very people that you choose to lead you become ones to be feared?

Is that the freedom that you are willing to fight for? Is the land of the free becoming the land of the fear? Or does it need a root and branch overhaul to bring government to a more accountable level. Is that what the impending battle will decide? Does anybody see that there is something fundamentally wrong with a democratic system that can be used against its own people.

Has the right to bear arms become a symptom of allowing a government to become a force to be feared, or is it a delusion of the existence of personal liberty?
Surely it can't be both? If you are afraid of what your own government might do, then you do not have liberty.
Genuine question from one who wants to learn - be nice!




posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 07:00 PM
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The 2nd SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!

2nd



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by mytheroy
The 2nd SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!

2nd


It's seeming less like a country and more like some kind of cult.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 07:31 PM
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Most people don’t fear the US Government because they’re blind to what’s going on. Tyranny by stealth. At least the government certainly does not fear the people. If they outlaw guns, hence going against the Second which patently states “shall not be infringed”, they set a precedent to change/abolish other Amendments.

Like or dislike guns, the right is for a greater good to be fighting for. Your rights are already being infringed upon at an alarming rate, don’t let this one be destroyed.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 07:32 PM
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While a lot of American citizens choose to be willfully ignorant of the actions and power grabs of the government over the past 30 years, there is a fraction of the population who see this clearly. The gun grab has been on the agenda for a long time, it just so happened to be perfect timing to get out of the Benghazi and Fast and Furious scandals, to the real agenda through playing on peoples heart strings with Sandy Hook.

History repeats itself, the average citizens try to utilize the "normalcy bias" here, while the norm would be the government going tyrannical, as can be seen throughout history.

I live outside of Detroit, in a not-so-fantastic area, my reasons for wanting firearms are for both personal security and in the case the government runs rampant. Those are absolutely besides the point, though, as it is my inalienable right, as dictated by the Constitution of the United States.

Peace.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 07:39 PM
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This question has been asked a hundred times in the last few weeks.

This website has a SEARCH function so that it doesnt get cluttered up with the SAME questions OVER AND OVER again.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by BlindBastards
Most people don’t fear the US Government because they’re blind to what’s going on. Tyranny by stealth. At least the government certainly does not fear the people. If they outlaw guns, hence going against the Second which patently states “shall not be infringed”, they set a precedent to change/abolish other Amendments.

Like or dislike guns, the right is for a greater good to be fighting for. Your rights are already being infringed upon at an alarming rate, don’t let this one be destroyed.


That's what I was wondering, you see here in Ireland the government cannot make any change (even a full stop) to the constitution without it being put to a referendum in which every person votes on whether to accept the change or not, even the most minute change must be put to the vote of the people. I gather that in the US that Congress can make amendments to the constitution without the consultation of the population. Is that true democracy or a recipe for disaster?



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by ResistTreason
This question has been asked a hundred times in the last few weeks.

This website has a SEARCH function so that it doesnt get cluttered up with the SAME questions OVER AND OVER again.



Well that's wonderful, thanks for that!
Joined yesterday,
9 posts
And a Mod already.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by HumansEh
Is that the freedom that you are willing to fight for? Is the land of the free becoming the land of the fear? Or does it need a root and branch overhaul to bring government to a more accountable level. Is that what the impending battle will decide? Does anybody see that there is something fundamentally wrong with a democratic system that can be used against its own people.

Has the right to bear arms become a symptom of allowing a government to become a force to be feared, or is it a delusion of the existence of personal liberty?
Surely it can't be both? If you are afraid of what your own government might do, then you do not have liberty.
Genuine question from one who wants to learn - be nice!


The thing was written into the constitution as a comentary, if you will, on the historic nature of the relationship between power and the people. The 2nd amendment represents a healthy respect for the historic fact that governments to go mad. That tyrants rise up easy among the unarmed.

If the US was a land of fear as you suggest, to the level you suggest, we wouldnt be having this freaking conversation.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by QUANTUMGR4V17Y
While a lot of American citizens choose to be willfully ignorant of the actions and power grabs of the government over the past 30 years, there is a fraction of the population who see this clearly. The gun grab has been on the agenda for a long time, it just so happened to be perfect timing to get out of the Benghazi and Fast and Furious scandals, to the real agenda through playing on peoples heart strings with Sandy Hook.

History repeats itself, the average citizens try to utilize the "normalcy bias" here, while the norm would be the government going tyrannical, as can be seen throughout history.

I live outside of Detroit, in a not-so-fantastic area, my reasons for wanting firearms are for both personal security and in the case the government runs rampant. Those are absolutely besides the point, though, as it is my inalienable right, as dictated by the Constitution of the United States.

Peace.


I see what you mean, but is the government going tyrannical because from what I've read on this forum it appears that a collision is impending, could things really get that bad? worrying times and not just for the US.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by QUANTUMGR4V17Y
 
Dude....I tried to give you 14 stars......but it only let me send ya one.....
well put, mister




posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by HumansEh

Originally posted by BlindBastards
Most people don’t fear the US Government because they’re blind to what’s going on. Tyranny by stealth. At least the government certainly does not fear the people. If they outlaw guns, hence going against the Second which patently states “shall not be infringed”, they set a precedent to change/abolish other Amendments.

Like or dislike guns, the right is for a greater good to be fighting for. Your rights are already being infringed upon at an alarming rate, don’t let this one be destroyed.


That's what I was wondering, you see here in Ireland the government cannot make any change (even a full stop) to the constitution without it being put to a referendum in which every person votes on whether to accept the change or not, even the most minute change must be put to the vote of the people. I gather that in the US that Congress can make amendments to the constitution without the consultation of the population. Is that true democracy or a recipe for disaster?


To tell you the truth our founders were not stupid enough to make the thing subject to a population numbers vote. If you dont know what I mean then forget about it.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by HumansEh

What I am really asking is, has Government been allowed to become so unaccountable and out of the hands of the people that law abiding citizens no longer feel that it works in their best interest, have the very people that you choose to lead you become ones to be feared?

Is that the freedom that you are willing to fight for? Is the land of the free becoming the land of the fear? Or does it need a root and branch overhaul to bring government to a more accountable level. Is that what the impending battle will decide? Does anybody see that there is something fundamentally wrong with a democratic system that can be used against its own people.

Has the right to bear arms become a symptom of allowing a government to become a force to be feared, or is it a delusion of the existence of personal liberty?
Surely it can't be both? If you are afraid of what your own government might do, then you do not have liberty.
Genuine question from one who wants to learn - be nice!
I'll hit on a few of the points in your OP. This may get a little long so bear with me. First and foremost, America is not a democracy. This is a fallacy among many historical fallacies. America is a constitutional republic. This ability to remove our understanding of the original political philosophy from the populaces collective conscience has been done masterfully. After all, when we're talking about a constitutional republic we're talking governance by law.

A constitutional republic refers to a form of government, where the head of state and other officials are representatives of the people and which governs in accordance with existing constitutional law. It is a government of laws not of men. Since the governing body is elected and their decisions are subject to judicial review the state is named as republican.
Source Now they can't have a political philosophy of law, all the while breaking those laws. They also don't want the populace to understand that they've undermined the agreements/concessions (Bill of Rights) made in order to legitimize (Constitution) the very government they're exploiting.Although this may be a little heavy on information stay with me.In the previous paragraph you may have noticed how I consider the development of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights a little different than some others.A lot of people for some reason think that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were universally formed together, in kind of a sing song, sit around the campfire fashion. This definitely is not the case. As a matter of fact a Bill of Rights was proposed while the Constitution was being formed and it was shot down almost unanimously. Only when they realized that the only way they would get "their" Constitution ratified was with a Bill of Rights did they make those concessions.What I'm saying is that the Bill of Rights were concessions that had to be made. It was a social progression that the world had not really seen before. Those same concessions are now being removed systematically, whether it be the 1st Amendment with H.R. 347, the 2nd amendment with the current charade, or the 4th and 5th amendments with NDAA and the Patriot Act.To understand better how the Constitution and Bill of Rights came into being Michael Parenti explains it fairly well.
On the second part. I do think the 2nd Amendment is a symptom of feard government. However, I don't think is was necessarily allowed. I'm of the opinion that empire is a natural progression of governance, and part of that natural progression is that the empire expands so much that it must turn tyrannical towards it's own people because of the interests it must serve in order to maintain itself. I think there is a historical subconscious within people that understand this, thus you have social progressions such as a Bill of Rights. Government should always be feared because of the terrible consequences of a government that has no checks and balances. Just look at the billions upon billions of people who have been slaughtered historically by governments that had no civil right barriers placed upon them.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by mytheroy
The 2nd SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!

2nd


It's seeming less like a country and more like some kind of cult.


Some of you guy come into threads like this as if you were little babies playing with dads tool set.

It might look like a cult because you are ignorant.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by HumansEh

I see what you mean, but is the government going tyrannical because from what I've read on this forum it appears that a collision is impending, could things really get that bad? worrying times and not just for the US.


Who knows at this point, anyone who says to the contrary is just speculating.. But with an economy that needs $80 billion pumped into it monthly, a government whose main interests lay with foreign owned corporations / banks, perpetual global mass murder on credit cards, and an ever increasing fear of domestic government dissidents (as can be seen with the NDAA and the MSM blasting conspiracy theorists over Sandy Hook), things aren't looking so good.

Just my opinion.

Peace.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by mytheroy
The 2nd SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!

2nd


It's seeming less like a country and more like some kind of cult.


A cult of constitution would certainly be a welcome change from the cult of personality we've been seeing since 2008



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by mytheroy
The 2nd SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!

2nd


It's seeming less like a country and more like some kind of cult.


Some of you guy come into threads like this as if you were little babies playing with dads tool set.

It might look like a cult because you are ignorant.


What a meaningless reply, it looks like a cult because you're like zombies talking about the constitution and not being able to think for yourselves. The answer is always "the constitution says", there's never any reason or logical answers to questions that oppose what it says. If the constitution said you can kill and rape would you do it? Or would that be outlawed? There's no reason why it can't be changed, you can't clutch on to the same piece of paper as the world changes.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 09:02 PM
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Well it's not just OUR govt. It's OTHER govt.s too.

If anyone wanted to come here and enslave us - say society breaks down. EMP or whatever.

We about all have guns in the South

Now, . Nuevo VIkings might not come to grab slaves from Charleston or Savannah.

Oh, but Boston, New York- England- not too well armed.

Where would you go?

A gun is a life line. With a gun you can protect your flock. Against ANY tyranny. Doesn't matter if it is a guy with a star on his chest or a guy in fur with horns on his motorcycle or head.

What's needed in this country is a desire to protect more than just one's self or bank account. We need real men and real women that are compassionate, but who won't worry overly much about the wolves while they are eating the last of their flock.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by 11235813213455

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by mytheroy
The 2nd SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!

2nd


It's seeming less like a country and more like some kind of cult.


A cult of constitution would certainly be a welcome change from the cult of personality we've been seeing since 2008


A cult where everyone has the false illusion of freedom that no one can take away and where people don't apply their own brain when it comes to the country's affairs? Yeah, sounds brilliant.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 09:11 PM
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www.youtube.com...

hope that embedded

i guess this is the response from anonymous in-regards to Obama's gun control plans and what not,its a little longer then i expected but it does make several good points along the way and i think is worth the 15 minute watch



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