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Birmingham stabbings: Stab victims were Big Issue sellers

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posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Was just speaking to my sister about this, and the words out of her mouth were "sounds like a big issue turf war".

It might seem petty and extreme to people like us, but I'd guess they were two prime selling positions which would be worth a lot of money (to people who have very little) each day to whoever controlled them.

When you're on the streets and you don't have anything, the risk of prison might not be a bad one.




posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by bates
 


True. It is the biggest grumble from most of them. Where I live, ten years ago, there was one guy, now there are a dozen...and that makes it tough to shift them all...plus, summer and the living is easy, this time of year, post christmas and tourist rush, competition is high.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by IvanAstikov
 


When they attack each other it tends to be at night, when all the 'normal' people have gone away and the witnesses are minimal, from what they tell me. Unless it is a territory dispute, and the attacker is themselves a Big Issues seller, which is plausible, that happens a lot, though not usually to this extreme.


There's a first time for everything. Like I've said, I'm surprised this hasn't happened before considering the people they associate with generally.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by IvanAstikov

Originally posted by jimmiec
You guys should get yourselves a copy of the Second Amendment. It affords you the right to protect yourselves against people like that. Somehow i don't think you can ban bad people or mentally ill people, which leaves you easy prey for the deranged killers among us all.


Put your self in their position and imagine someone has come up to you and your friend and asked for a copy of the magazine you sell. As you hold out the mag ready to exchange it for some money, he instead pulls out a knife and plunges it into your throat, turns to your friend and stabs them in the chest, and as you both fall to the ground losing blood rapidly, continues to slash and stab your bodies. How would having a concealed weapon have protected those two people?


If more people carried concealed weapons there would be less of these crimes because they know they might get shot. The criminals know it would be rare if not impossible to encounter a gun during a mugging so they rob without fear. Guns make really good deterrents and if needed can save your life as a last resort.

and to the "do homeless people carry guns" comment, YES some do you would be surprised! They need weapons more than the average person since you know, they sleep outside.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by oniraug
 


Maybe in the states but not here in old Blighty thank you.



posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by oniraug

If more people carried concealed weapons there would be less of these crimes because they know they might get shot. The criminals know it would be rare if not impossible to encounter a gun during a mugging so they rob without fear. Guns make really good deterrents and if needed can save your life as a last resort.

and to the "do homeless people carry guns" comment, YES some do you would be surprised! They need weapons more than the average person since you know, they sleep outside.


Utter balderdash. The best piece of advice I have ever received for dealing with potential trouble is, "Never walk with your head down. Hold your head high, look people in the eye if you sense trouble." That was taught to me many years ago by an expert in the field... an ex mugger. When they see someone is "switched on," they tend to pass right on by, looking for easier prey. That concealed weapon you brandish so brazenly is more likely to be used AGAINST you than to protect you.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 05:59 AM
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Originally posted by PW229

Originally posted by oniraug

If more people carried concealed weapons there would be less of these crimes because they know they might get shot. The criminals know it would be rare if not impossible to encounter a gun during a mugging so they rob without fear. Guns make really good deterrents and if needed can save your life as a last resort.

and to the "do homeless people carry guns" comment, YES some do you would be surprised! They need weapons more than the average person since you know, they sleep outside.


Utter balderdash. The best piece of advice I have ever received for dealing with potential trouble is, "Never walk with your head down. Hold your head high, look people in the eye if you sense trouble." That was taught to me many years ago by an expert in the field... an ex mugger. When they see someone is "switched on," they tend to pass right on by, looking for easier prey. That concealed weapon you brandish so brazenly is more likely to be used AGAINST you than to protect you.


This. Situational awareness and having the ability to look as if you are at ease in ANY conventional environment is far more effective a deterrent than having an hidden weapon. When everyone has hidden weapons, all it does is create a far more nasty criminal for the public to worry about, ie. the one who shoots you in the head first and then takes your valuables, including your useless weapon.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 06:09 AM
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reply to post by bates
 


oh that is sad. I am aware of the big issue, we have it over in Au also.

v sad.

They are usually people rebuilding their lives or trying to.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 06:19 AM
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The Big Issue salesmen I knew years ago weren't rebuilding their lives. They had accomodation paid for by the state, claimed benefits from the state and made a 'packet' out of selling the Big Issue. When we added it all up they were on a lot more than me and I was in a managerial post at the time working for a large company.

I certainly couldn't afford two foreign holidays a year (long haul) but they could. And yes they could afford to be alcoholics and use drugs. Not that I would want that, but I certainly couldn't afford to spend that amount of money on booze!

This is a turf war because the money selling Big Issue is actually fantastic. Technically you are supposed to be homeless, but virtually none of them are.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 06:19 AM
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reply to post by oniraug
 
A heck of a lot of homeless people have mental health issues and the reasons for being homeless in the first place would often restrict them from gun ownership.

Let's see?

No address
Mental health issues
History of alcoholism and/or drug use
High incidence of criminal records
Higher rates of suicide and earlier mortality than general populations

Would any of those be a barrier to a homeless person legally carrying a concealed weapon?



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by Labrat3162
 


well it isnt like that here in AU. I believe it is rotated and a lot of people who are homeless get the opportunity to sell the newspaper.

It gives them a sense of pride, a feeling of being worthwhile and some dignity.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by Labrat3162
 
BS my friend.

I knew a few sellers in Liverpool and they weren't going off on holidays or earning more money than managers of anything. Dirt poor and genuinely homeless. Alcoholism can lead to homelessness but it's also a learned response by some to cope with the utter, mind-numbing boredom of days on the street. Booze helps you sleep. Drugs like heroin also cause homelessness and can come later as a similar means of coping with the life.

Let's say one issue goes for 2 Aussie dollars? The seller keeps 75% so that's $1.50 per issue right?? Next time you go past a Big Issue seller just go ahead and wait awhile. See how many issues they sell? For your claim to be anywhere near realistic, they'd be selling 50 a day to make $75. The reality is closer to 20 issues on a good day.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 06:35 AM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


one of my friends [who died in a bike accident on the way home from work
] he was such a great guy, so compassionate and well, he would always buy the newspaper and on this day (they read this one out at his funeral) he met up with the guy that usually sold the big issue and he was really flat and Vincent was like.. "hey, how is it going? " the guy was like, had no money and no big issues left to sell so my friend says, hang on a minute.. goes back to his office, collects all the old big issues he had ever bought and rounded up some others from other people and ran back and gave them all to him. the guy was so happy... the money he could get from selling them... would buy him FOOD.



RIP V



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 07:40 AM
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The one thing that could have saved these 2 unfortunate people is affordable stab and slash-proof clothing.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


Yeah, Lloydy and his friends were making between 30 and fifty pound sterling a day each from selling the Big Issue, (and this was 15 years ago, so in todays money it would be more.) Yes they did go on regular long haul holidays. Yes they did have their rent paid for by the state, so were not homeless, and because they were recieving that state benefit they were entitled to whatever form of unemployment benefits that were available at the time. And there were quite a few of them.

When I first met them I didn't believe the way they spoke about their lifestyles but they proved it to me. The flats they were living in were fantastically decked out. Maybe the system is different in Aus. but here in the UK A LOT of the Big Issue salesmen are 'playing' the systems and making a mint. One of Lloydy's colleagues even had a 4x4! It was a real eye opener. Since then I have never bought a Big Issue.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 08:23 AM
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There has been an update on this:



Two Big Issue sellers who were stabbed to death in front of shoppers in Birmingham were probably known to their attacker, police have said.

Wayne Busst, 32, and Ian Gladwish, 31, both from Birmingham, were stabbed in Union Street at about 17:50 GMT on Friday.




So it seems this wasn't a random attack, and looks like it could be a long running feud that finally came to a head in the most tragic way.

Just goes to show how brutal and unforgiving life on the streets can be.

As has been previously said, there was virtually no way to get away with this crime. Makes you wonder how desperate you would have to be to go through with something like that.

And the guy up there claiming that big issue sellers are all playboys earning ridiculous money and taking long haul holidays or whatever, is there any need for such bollocks in this thread?

edit on 13-1-2013 by bates because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by oniraug
 


Maybe in the states but not here in old Blighty thank you.


I am in Blighty and would gladly carry a concealed weapon, thank you-



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by IvanAstikov
The one thing that could have saved these 2 unfortunate people is affordable stab and slash-proof clothing.


Because affordable to you is still going to be affordable for homeless people? And does that stab and slash-proof clothing cover your face?



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by IvanAstikov
Put your self in their position and imagine someone has come up to you and your friend and asked for a copy of the magazine you sell. As you hold out the mag ready to exchange it for some money, he instead pulls out a knife and plunges it into your throat, turns to your friend and stabs them in the chest, and as you both fall to the ground losing blood rapidly, continues to slash and stab your bodies. How would having a concealed weapon have protected those two people?


Condolences to those who knew those 2 victims.

The Homeless would not be able to get guns, even if the law allows it or they can even afford it. If they had a good life living off welfare benefits, they would not be out pushing rags at $2 a piece.

It is those whom are around who could have helped. It was a busy street in broad daylight. Why did no one bothered to stopped them? I suppose most do not want to get involve, as the assaliant was armed while they were not.

Fortunately, the murderer stopped at 2 and not at others. If so, would others have tried to stop him? I doubt so, as brits are not armed.

In Texas, if such a situation happened on a busy street, rest assured at least a warning gunshot by a concerned texan civilian would have gone off to halt such attacks. As the saying goes, when you need the police within seconds, they are often minutes away if not hours.

The homeless too, are only fellow humans, and would need more help to get off the streets, but not by being brutally slaughtered and uncared by society.



posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by jasonl1983

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
The one thing that could have saved these 2 unfortunate people is affordable stab and slash-proof clothing.


Because affordable to you is still going to be affordable for homeless people? And does that stab and slash-proof clothing cover your face?


I meant affordable to even the poorest members of society. People like the homeless who are on the streets 24/7 and come into contact with all life's dregs, should be given them by the local authorities.

No, the clothing wouldn't cover your face. The point of such garb would be to slightly increase your chances, not make you invincible to knives and other bladed weapons, but, all the same, thanks for playing.






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