Why we can no longer afford religion

Originally posted by Toelint
How much of what you do on a daily basis is based on what you learned in Sunday School? I'd say, a lot more than any of us care to admit.

I never went to Sunday school so I wouldnt know. However I do know that I also bust my 'hump' everyday. I'm in a different country surviving off of poverty income in order to obtain my PhD. I wake up everyday and work and study endless amounts of hours. But I wouldnt say that this is based on sunday school teachings

Originally posted by Toelint
This next part may seem a little off-track, so bear with me. Consider for a moment how many people in history have been killed in the name of God. Tons you say? Compare that number to how many in history have died for purely Secular reasons. The previous number would pale in comparison.

I understand but let's just set the record straight. Millions of people have died for religion. I'm not even going to cite examples, however just do a quick search on mamma.com and you'll get a grasp of the numbers. I think it's absurd that people fight about the 'holy'. It's counter-productive.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE!!! John 3:16

Now wheres the FAILURE in that ???

[edit on 28-10-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

The failure is that the life that we are currently on. The only life that we can prove is fraught with failures based on this unobtainable paradox.

Originally posted by saint4God
What has religion 'cost' you anyway?

According to the bible, it 'cost' everyone 10% of their income every sunday.

Originally posted by Linux
So what about other religions and such? you fail to mention Native Americans for example.

I'm not familar with that religion as much as I am with the 'Big Three'

Just because man thinks god is dead in the event of technology doesn't mean he/she/it is actually dead. As you stated thats only an idea

But im insisting that based on the current trends of technology, the urge to replace the 'natural' is evidence alone that, at least in a metaphorical sense 'God is dead'.

I'm pretty sure technology is what messed us up so bad in the first place. Example: Guns, Nuclear bombs, Cars.

I totally agree.

Again, im not disagreeing with your concepts here, I am a big fan of peaceful technology (have a look at my name and logo for example). Isn't this just bypassing the age old question though? artificial yes but we aren't - that doesn't leave me much answers to work with.

I'm not quite sure as to what you are saying.

Well, yes but I believe the paradox was inherited from a long line of greed, corruption etc. Besides that I agree, we have messed up and are rooted with evil.

Just look at America for example. There was a post on ATS saying America is based on God (or something along those lines). In turn, Americ is based on Greed, deception, corruption (slavery anyone?). And the reason why these factors are into place is because our country is trying to obtain this unobtainable image of perfection based from God. I didnt have a chance to get involved in the thread, but I think I might bring it back to life soon.

I like your way of thinking though

Thanks!

[edit on 10/29/2004 by Simulacra]

[Quote] Just look at America for example. There was a post on ATS saying America is based on God (or something along those lines). In turn, Americ is based on Greed, deception, corruption (slavery anyone?). And the reason why these factors are into place is because our country is trying to obtain this unobtainable image of perfection based from God. I didnt have a chance to get involved in the thread, but I think I might bring it back to life soon.

I'm from America, and although our country was founded on freedom of religion and god,
(One Nation Under god(Pledge of allegiance)), (in god we trust (On our money) I get to choose or not choose whether I want to be apart of that.
And I am a Capitolist.
I don't go to work for god, jesus, allah or Loki.
I go to work so I can buy stuff.
Do I spend a ton of my off time looking into homesteading and living off the grid? Yep.
But I'm still a capitolist, I want my MTV, My internet, my car, my color TV, my nice couch, my big house.
I'm not greedy...I work for everything I have.
I haven't had to use deception on anyone that I was aware of to make my ends meet.
And I don't see myself as a corrupt person.

now, if you want to talk about my Government...lol....that's a different story......fire away.

-DT

Originally posted by Bake
isn't religion always the reason behind fighting between different peoples? let's look at the crusades, a religious war. now, in iraq, religion is the predominate reasoning behind a lot of stuff that's going on over there. "allah told us to...." or "god made me do it" type of stuff. it's all getting out of hand. i think it's time people wake up and realize that they and only they are the ones who decide what to do in different situations. religion is mostly a comfort, something for people on earth to look forward to for the afterlife. if religion didn't exist, it could quite possibly be anarchy. everyone wondering how we got here, what happens when it's over, etc. let's just live life as it is and quit thinking so much into religion being the center of everything.

Bake, maybe you skipped over my post. I suggested that those who lament over the victims of religious wars, sit back and consider ALL THE VICTIMS OF PURELY SECULAR CRIMES. (Assaults and Rapes, Robberies, "good ole-fashion" Murders, and Thefts)

The number of those killed in religious wars, or by "in the name of God" whackos, pales in comparison.

[edit on 29-10-2004 by Toelint]

Jesus brought the message, man made religion.

Originally posted by Simulacra

Originally posted by saint4God
What has religion 'cost' you anyway?

According to the bible, it 'cost' everyone 10% of their income every sunday.

Ah, your concern is with money. Good luck in the afterlife.

[edit on 29-10-2004 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Derek Trance
now, if you want to talk about my Government...lol....that's a different story......fire away.
-DT

Remember, my government is your government, im just in wales for a year. Then im going back to my home state of Texas.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Simulacra

Originally posted by saint4God
What has religion 'cost' you anyway?

According to the bible, it 'cost' everyone 10% of their income every sunday.

Ah, your concern is with money. Good luck in the afterlife.

[edit on 29-10-2004 by saint4God]

My concern is not with money. Someone asked me and I told them. I make no money and i'm absolutely fine with it.

To claim that "we can no longer afford religion" is a value judgment, or as it is more commonly referred to, an opinion.

Obviously, opinions vary, but if history is any guide, an astonishing majority of people have decided that whatever religion gives them is worth the price. Sometimes the price can be very high indeed.

Thus a thesis that religion is "too expensive" must be presented in the face of overwhelming disagreement.

Perhaps a better line of reasoning would be to examine what the actual cost-versus-benefit ratio of various religions may be, in order to better understand what is really going on there.

Sweeping generalizations made about "religion", which is really a term for just about every structured system of belief known to man -- including Science, by the way -- have no meaning unless they can somehow be supported by some form of rational analysis of the phenomena.

Your brief discussions of the "Big Three" and their concepts of "Impossible Exchange" and "Unobtainable Paradox" are interesting, but ironically depend upon assumptions that could themselves be considered religious in nature.

It is tempting to want to reduce these religions to a couple of paragraphs, but their own complex and wide-ranging natures make meaningful analysis based on such reductions virtually impossible.

So it's an interesting topic, but one for which the reward for oversimplifaction will be a greater lack of understanding.

Lest I Be Misunderstood

I don't practice or advocate any form of organized religion, and have found myself unable to agree with any of them to a significant degree, so please don't mistake me for someone interested in pushing some sort of religious agenda.

For my part, I have found the most meaning through meditation and self-examination, which I can recommend to anyone. Such study is necessarily unique for each individual, and no one answer or path is right everyone.

As for organized religions, I have found meaning and hints of truth in every form of religion I have examined so far. In particular, I find a special sense of accord with certain principles of Science, Zen Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity, although it would clearly be misleading to think I strongly agree with any of them.

Thus I'm not out to defend or promote any religion or religion in general, just to point out that religion does exist for a reason, and a pretty darn good one at that.

A sentient being cannot tolerate a life without meaning. Religion represents one way of approaching the search for meaning that is necessary to sustain conscious life.

I'd say that's something worthy of a high price.



[edit on 10/29/2004 by Majic]

At some point in the future peoples' wish will come true. All the individual nations of the world are going to figure out that religion is the barrier to world peace. Some major future event is going to make them come to the realization that its too dangerous to have organized religions. They'll all be in agreement and the governments will regulate what is acceptable behavior in a religion.

"And the Wild Beast will turn on the woman-the harlot, Babylon the Great, and devistate her and make her naked."

I guess we'll see if your prophecies come to pass -- if we live that long.

Originally posted by Majic
A sentient being cannot tolerate a life without meaning. Religion represents one way of approaching the search for meaning that is necessary to sustain conscious life.
[edit on 10/29/2004 by Majic]

Could it be that we possibly can't tollerate a life without meaning so much that we created religion to give our lives meaning? And thus created the God's that rule over these religions to authorise them? Let me know what you think.

I'm not sure about being able to 'afford' religion. I am not religious at all. Spiritual yes. It's interesting that you bring up no longer being able to afford religion. I know you meant moraly, ethicly, society etc. That is something I have never thought about. But shoot, look at the Mormon church. Rich rich rich. The folks in that church seem never to want to leave. At least they do one thing for us. When ya die they baptise ya if yer on their list! So sin away!!

Originally posted by just_a_pilot
It's interesting that you bring up no longer being able to afford religion. I know you meant moraly, ethicly, society etc. That is something I have never thought about.

Yea hopefully people didnt get the impression that I meant financially afford religion? I'm pretty sure the ATS community is smarter than that.

Originally posted by Simulacra
Could it be that we possibly can't tollerate a life without meaning so much that we created religion to give our lives meaning? And thus created the God's that rule over these religions to authorise them? Let me know what you think.

I would agree that life would be intolerable or at least unsatisfying without some form of meaning experienced on an individual level. However, I don't think there is any specific need for some pre-arranged 'God' figure or 'Religion' for people to have meaning within their own lives. People would simply develop reason and meaning for their existence in their own way.

One example could be that a person finds that meaning in being the parent of a child. In this way they exchange the idea of being in 'Debt to God' for their life, with being the 'Steward of life' for their child. In other words, 'Meaning and/or Purpose' would be determined by the individual in a way which satisfied their personal philisophical void.

Religions are created for the purpose of controlling 'Lives' other than one's own. It establishes order/direction/meaning/purpose/etc. for all to follow. This way a Religious Order sets the direction of the masses instead of each individual choosing a meaning and/or purpose for themself. Sometimes it would work for the person and sometimes not, but in either case it doesn't make any difference just as long as it is and continues working for those who benefit from it.(Usually the creators and those who have been initiated and promoted within the Order itself.)

For example, a Business Owner creates a business of some kind. Now some employees may enjoy the job while others don't. In either case it makes no difference just as long as the employees do what they are told. It's a system developed to benefit the Owner/Investors/etc. ultimately. If an employee happens to benefit from it then fine, whatever...lucky them, but that isn't the Primary Purpose of why that Business was established. Make sense?

I think the creation of a Personal God/Creator God/etc. was an effective means for Mankind to 'Cope with dissapointment, Rid themselves of Blame, Explain the Unknown, Eleviate personal responsibilities, etc.

Another thing to remember is that not all 'Gods' are 'Dieties of Judgement and/or Control', especially in the personal sense. In many faiths God is beyond such concepts as Judgement of Man and things with such 'Personal characteristics'.

I mean would there really be such a time of Judgement with a God that exists outside Time & Space or any other boundary?

Why would such a God even need to evaluate It's Creation after it is created?
God would already be fully aware of what that creation may become thus removing the need for such a Time of Judgement or even any Intervention in the first place.

Originally posted by mOjOm
Why would such a God even need to evaluate It's Creation after it is created?
God would already be fully aware of what that creation may become thus removing the need for such a Time of Judgement or even any Intervention in the first place.

Wish I would have replied to this earlier, but sooner is better than later :puzwhoever made that saying deserves a few peanut butter cookies)

I like the question you brought up. Exactly why would such a perfect and flawless God need to evaluate its creation? We were made in God's image so in turn, we should be perfect. Obviously, this is not the case.

So now we are left with a few ideas:

- We are our own Gods.
- God is flawed with imperfections, making God, human.
- The Impossible Exchange.

Pardon me, Sim, if this has already been stated, but rather than read through all the replies, I figured I'd toss my two cents in while your writing is fresh in my mind.

As you probably suspected, I disagree with you. My faith, Christianity, brings no harm to you or anyone else. You know what we believe, it's there in the book. Loving your neighbor and your enemies, giving to the needy, being concerned about the lost about you and reaching out to them; these things hurt nothing.
While we were made in His image, we were not made to be "God-like". Don't get the two confused. Many people want to be God-like, but that is nothing more than prideful desires.

Interesting enough, your thoughts that the "Big Three" should be erased are not new at all, and that is the direction the world is going to go. If my Bible is correct, in the end, you will not want what you wish for. It might be easier to love God and do what you can to make Him happy, and allow Him to work in your life for your betterment as well.

Anyway, just another thought to kick out there.

.
Organized religion works as a quick fix for people.

It isn't however very personal.

It tends to give a group common views, values.

It probably doesn't involve much/any personal growth.
It is sort of industrial and mass produced.

Most of the values of organized religion are re-inforcements for evolutionarily [biologically] instilled attitudes.

The further you step away from your comfortable easy chair value systems the more you individualize yourself. It probably shouldn't be torture to do so, it should be more like gettin up and getting some spiritual exercise. Even if you go back to your easy chair you will feel better there.

You can do something similar intellectually, take an idea you don't think makes any sense and try to come up with the arguments for it. Science is based on this. Setting aside the superstitions of gods and spirits and objectively observing the world around you. Then trying to comprehend and understand how it all works.

I personally think the best spirituality is sort of Zen. It has no biases or views. It simply says be right inside your life in this particular instant. I think science and zen would make a great marriage of intellect and spirituality.

I wonder that our need/dependance on a 'God' image is biologically based. I worry that without evolving beyond that we may not as a species be able to optimally deal with the delicate universal balance in which we live.

I can't say with certainty that organized religions doom us, but if that becomes the dominant mind state i agree that it will probably doom us, at a minimum to progress no further, or more possibly destroy ourselves with adversarial ignorance.

Anyone like the term Zen-science?
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