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Why we can no longer afford religion

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posted on Oct, 27 2004 @ 11:00 AM
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Ok people, before you go into 'auto-reply-debunk' mode, take a deep breath. Good? Ok, let's go...

As you can tell from the title of this post I believe that religion no longer has a place in society. The overall concept of religion is simply impossible for any person. When I say 'religion', I'm referring to the 'Big Three' (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). There are actually two reasons why religion can no longer work. The first one being an impossible exchange as stated years ago by Jean Baudrillard. The second reason roots out of an 'unobtainable paradox'.

Reason #1: Impossible Exchange

The rooted belief held by most Christians, Jews, and Muslims is that the world, earth was given to us by God. So it is this debt that we owe back to God. In other words, since God has given this earth to us, we must somehow return the favour by giving it back to him. God is our divine debtor; he has given us something that we can no longer pay back. So with recent post-modern trends, there has been the classical 'Death of God'. The idea that God is dead, we as people must fiend for ourselves (I guess the concept of the 'death of God' is more romantic than anything). I believe this concept was first brought up by either Kierkegaard or Sartre (forgive my spelling). So now we have this world that was given to us by this great debtor, which has died. Who do we give it back to? How can we repay this debt? Easy, we take earth and make it man-made. We implore technology in every facet of our society and environment. We remove the natural element (the Godly/Holy element) and replace it with our own created devices. Just look at the technological, industrial, and computer revolution for evidence of this. Now what has been given to us by God is no longer of his hands, but of our own. It is artificial and acceptable by man.


Reason #2: Unobtainable Paradox

It is well known that the 'Big Three' believe man was created in the image of God. It is also believed by many that God is the essence of perfection. God is true, good, righteous...perfect. Here the paradox has already surfaced. If we are created in the likeness of God, then every human has failed in life. We are created to be 'God-like', yet we do profane things throughout our lives. Profane of course being anything that is not completely righteous and god-like. To put it simply, we have screwed up since our conception (Remember a little couple called Adam and Eve?). Man has been chasing this god-like ideology throughout our history. Yet we all fall short. This has created an 'unobtainable paradox'.

However, this paradox would not exist if we accept the fact that Man made god in his image. Weak, ignorant and greedy (yet we could be great at the same time). If we would accept that God was manufactured by man out of ignorance and fear, then would break these religious barriers that have held us back for centuries.

We could all do what religion has never done for the human race.

Unite us as a people




posted on Oct, 27 2004 @ 12:14 PM
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Well, no backlash? Is it that coherent and good?



posted on Oct, 27 2004 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by Simulacra
Well, no backlash? Is it that coherent and good?



Whats the time in US? Wait until they wake up or log on, they will eat you alive..hahaha



posted on Oct, 27 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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Well, lets see, It's actually 1:41pm here in crappy Massachusetts, USA.

But....I'm actually an Agnostic/Border Athiest, so I sort of agree.

(I grew up roman catholic, that wasn't for me and no way I was going to let anyone brainwash me. I actually went to a bunch of different masses while I was in bootcamp just to check out other religions)

My take is that there may be a creator out there somewhere, but I think everyone here has got it all wrong.

To say that you believe everything in a book written by men, is rather silly. Considering it was most likely handed down by word of mouth for a while, translation errors etc.. All men make mistakes.

A quote I heard once was that god was created by the strong to give the weak hope.

(Oh, Don't worry If we kill your family and friends, you've been good and your going to heaven and will be with god.)
(Be good and don't rebel against your king now, cause that's a sin you know)

Now, here's a question for the unwavering Xealots :
I am in a tribe in some unknown crack of land somewhere.
I am never exposed to any religion except what I make up myself.
(I.E. My own beliefs, be it that I become one with the earth or that I fly to some unknown location over the rainbow.)
What happens when I die?
Am I a sinner in the creator's eyes because I was never exposed to his religion?
If you answer that yes, we might as well give up since the creator casts down the ignorant. (Talk about segregation!!!!) And who the hell would want to worship THAT creator?

If you answered no, then why is anyone studying the book anyways???

-DT



posted on Oct, 27 2004 @ 01:14 PM
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Well........
I don't know...but to me, the church's stand that their little black book is infallible seems to be their biggest problem....

The can't admit that their predecessors occassional, kind of, sort of, took it upon themselves to speak for God.....(occassionally is kind of relative here....I think it happened alot!!)

Well, here we are in the 21st century, and now, they seem to be tripping over themselves....trying to support these untruths in the name of iffalibility, with even bigger lies.

Here's a question for all.....

All three religions listed place about half of the population as subservient to the other half...
Christ is the head of the husband, the husband is the head of the wife....okay....therefore, the wife should obey the husband in ALL THINGS.

Somewhere in the old testament, you will find that if a women vows anything, to man or God, without the approval of her husband or other male guardian, well, the vow is automatically made void.

okay, to be save, one should admit their sins to Christ, surrender their life to him, and be forgiven of their sins, and then live their life for Christ.....

Well, now,let's say that good ole Osama has decided to command one of his many wives to go to your house, with explosives strapped onto them.
Can we assume that the head of Osama is Christ, like the Bible is claiming?
Can we also assume that since Osama is his wifes head, she should therefore obey him in ALL THINGS?
And, well, because of the above, well, you should just surrender to the will of god and let her blow you up! Since, it's Christ that is the head of the whole mess, and well, it happens to be that time of month where the wife is unclean (why else would osama send her so far away!!!) and therefore you cannot touch her!!!

Wouldn't it be just a little easier to say that....
IT was man who decided that women should be below him and therefore put her underneath his rulership. And, a man, when he gives himself to Christ, should be laying EVERYTHING AT THE ALTER, including his wife..
And, that the women should recognize the idea of servitude is not commanded from God, so when she approaches God, well, she should be praying for deliverance...which we, in American have been striving for a few hundred years now...and for the most part have given her.

I hate the idea that a portion of our society want to go back on this one so badly that they are using the tricks like DeLay's to get what they want....it will cause more harm that good.



posted on Oct, 27 2004 @ 02:51 PM
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I'm actually a firm believer in equal rights, I believe a woman is my equal.

I also believe that if anyone can do my job better than me, they should get the job. Be them Man/Woman/Black/White/Gay/Straight or whatever.

However. (Even though this is all sliding OT....lol)
My 2 problems are :

1. A ratio, I.E. Must have 20% women in the workplace.
that's crap. If you can do the job, you get the job...if you can't do the job. You DO NOT get it.

2. Number 2 may be touchy, but hey...what are forums for.
As my equal. Do not expect anything but to be my equal as a man.
You cannot have the right to vote, the right to work and the right to do whatever you want as my equal and then expect a man to take 100% care of you by buying the house, paying the bills and doing all the "man" stuff.
(I.E. your money is your money and my money is "our" money")

Now granted, I do all that crap anyways...but never EXPECT it if you want to be my equal.
That drives me crazy.
(And yes, I know how to sew, how to cook, I clean and do dishes, but I'll never be your equal for shopping....sheesh, I just can't handle it...lol)

Anyways, Lets see if I get get back on topic here.
As far as "God" being dead, I think it's more that man has abandoned a belief that has been drilled into his head for a couple thousand years.
Sort of like...world is flat....oops...world is round.
An awakening if you choose...

For another example about the big black book....

In my history class in high school, (Ages ago) I learned that Paul Revere rode his horse through the towns screaming "The British are coming!!"

Now, years later, I know this was false. William Dawes Made the ride, Paul got arrested after like the first mile and he never yelled "the brittish are coming!" because he was in fact british. He most likely yelled the Redcoats are coming or the Regulars are coming.

So, here we have my history book that I believed all these years...turns out to be wrong. Not all wrong, but partly wrong.
It was introduced to me as fact in high school about 12 years ago.

So there is no way I am going to believe that a book 2000 years old that was written by man is going to be 100% the word of a creator. Be it the Catholic Bible, the Koran or any of the other books out there.

-DT



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 12:48 AM
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Originally posted by Derek Trance
2. Number 2 may be touchy, but hey...what are forums for.
As my equal. Do not expect anything but to be my equal as a man.
You cannot have the right to vote, the right to work and the right to do whatever you want as my equal and then expect a man to take 100% care of you by buying the house, paying the bills and doing all the "man" stuff.
(I.E. your money is your money and my money is "our" money")
-DT


Even though this is a little bit off topic, I completely agree with you. Male and Female equality are no where near what it should be. Men and Women bathrooms? That's just another way to say...'Whites only'. We preach for equality, yet we intentionally segregate women from men in all aspects (Just look at the olympics for example, the cornerstone of gender segregation). The notion of equality runs rampart in society, yet we create our own rules that negate this. Men have to open the door for women, Women must tend to the kids and dare I say...Men cant hit women.

All these 'rules' that we hold so precious in our society is just another subtle way to segregate genders.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 02:10 AM
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My religion is that I believe in Santa Claus!

Santa is so much better than all the other imitation "gods," he comes down the chimney, has cookies, why he even drinks Coca Cola. Instead of demanding things, he brings presents! All those other imitation "gods," just bring ruin, then promise we get to play harps after we are all dead. What kinda "gods," are these? Go to Eastern religion, you get some crummy Shiva destroying worlds. Go to Jesus and he was just about the best at being Santa, and a bunch of greedy political morons stop him before he can come down the Chimney, eat cookies and give us presents. Then they say he is coming back, but first we have to have wars and rumors of war, earthquakes, and we are all bad people even if we have led good lives. No we have to tithe everything just to get a possible chance of being "saved?"

No face it, my religion is St. Nicholas, Santa Claus, the North Pole dude, you know the Christmas agent of goodness. All the others are just boring sermons and incense burning, and bowing down so many times a day so the Sultan can rob you blind.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by SkipShipman]



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by SkipShipman
My religion is that I believe in Santa Claus!


Theres more evidence to support Santa Claus than most of these 'Big three' religions.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 02:38 AM
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Maybe you better poll some more women before you go "Asexual" on the public restrooms...

Any way, on the subject of whether or not religion is obsolete, I'd like you to consider the following: How much of what you do on a daily basis is based on what you learned in Sunday School? I'd say, a lot more than any of us care to admit.

I get up and hussle to work, bust my rump, pray for overtime, (maybe I don't PRAY for it, but you know what I mean) and hope for a fairly eventless drive home and a quiet night with the misses. Pretty Secular you say? Think again. Except for the fact that I watch a football game on Sunday, I live a pretty-much-Christian lifestyle. Would any portion of this picture change if I had a purely Secular upbringing? I bet it at least part of it would.

This next part may seem a little off-track, so bear with me. Consider for a moment how many people in history have been killed in the name of God. Tons you say? Compare that number to how many in history have died for purely Secular reasons. The previous number would pale in comparison.

The Bible is MUCH more than a book of "Don't do this...don't do that". Read it carefully. It's a template for how to live a good life. Maybe not a dazzling life, but a good life nonetheless. By the way, inspite of the latest hubbub about the Church, I've yet to meet a Priest or a nun who regrets their chosen path. Can you say the same for the rest of us, when the average american changes careers FIVE times over his/her lifetime?


[edit on 28-10-2004 by Toelint]

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Toelint]

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Toelint]



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 02:40 AM
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Simulacra, very interesting points. I agree, but only to an extent. I'm going for a degree in philosophy of religion and while I specialize in Asian religion, these very questions were brought up in many of my classes regarding the Big Three western religions.

First I'll play some devil's (or in this case western God's) advocate and give some common western religious responses to your critiques:

The idea of Impossible Exchange is probably best answered with a belief from the Catholics. Good works and stewardship of the earth is the repayment of the debt to the creator. While we have been given existance by his grace, it is then our charge to play out his will as best we can by maintaining the world in a way that makes it the best it can be. Much in the way that a feudal lord was given rein over a parsec of land and told to be its keeper.

A good argument against the Unobtainable Paradox was put forth by Saint Thomas Aquinas. We can never be as good as god because of original sin, however it is in resistance to such from which we gain grace and therefore become closer to god. A just god would never expect the unobtainable, so it is within the lifelong quest for betterment where the true goal lies. Much as a teacher grading a student not upon perfection but instead upon his improvement towards the goal of perfection, such would god weigh on judgement.

Now my personal belief is that religion does have a place in the modern world, it provides a moral framework for billions of people worldwide. With this though one must remember that the Big Three western religions are not all that there is, a full spectrum of religious experence is avalible in the world and one must find the one that fits themselves. I also believe that religions should not be pushed upon people eather, the past has tought us this leads to great suffering. As such, withold your beliefs for yourself and those who ask for input, be true to your ideals but be accepting of others' beliefs as well, one should always seek to learn from others.

Finally I will say that I see no place for religion in government, Canada and the European Union function quite well without an overlayed religious ideology, much as America was founded to.

Blessed Be
~Astral



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 08:05 AM
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Quite simply - God isn't a religion.

Identifying God through something that is man-made is not likely to give you the entire answer.

The original poster states that God is inadequate because man has failed. Says who? Who backs this argument up? If we were created by God, who knows if we aren't running along perfectly with His plan?
Religion itself may not be perfect but it does supply the majority of the human race with the first concept of their god/s. Abolishing religion may mean that something even more dangerous may replace it.

I agree that religion has no place in government in the modern day world, but it is ridiculous to suppose that it has no place in our societies. Everything that we do has been based on our religions. Religion was the starting point for our civilisations. The vast majority of our laws have their basis in religion and it still provides the moral background for our everyday lives.

Maybe religion should become more personal and more tolerant, but to destroy it could destroy the human race.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 08:45 AM
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Nietsche said God is dead.

Kirkegaard was a christian btw.

The unobtainable paradox is based on catholic theology, not protestant.

We are said to be made in the image of God, not the substance. The fact that we were "the image" then doesn't mean we are the substance now.

But then, you have an axe to grind. So don't let me get in your way.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 10:35 AM
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Well if you lokk at it logicly from indipendent prospectuve, religion started as way to explain things, that people couldn't understand way back, and later, with monotheism evolved into a way to control the masses.
So religion IS the opium of the masses.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 11:03 AM
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First off i'll state im Agnostic, so I sit on the fence mainly and watch. Your essay has some holes in it from my point of view however...


Originally posted by Simulacra
person. When I say 'religion', I'm referring to the 'Big Three' (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).


So what about other religions and such? you fail to mention Native Americans for example.



The rooted belief held by most Christians, Jews, and Muslims is that the world, earth was given to us by God. So it is this debt that we owe back to God. In other words, since God has given this earth to us, we must somehow return the favour by giving it back to him.


I don't know many Christians that think like that, they all seem to believe we're here for a learning expierance and abiding by certain ethics.




So with recent post-modern trends, there has been the classical 'Death of God'. The idea that God is dead, we as people must fiend for ourselves (I guess the concept of the 'death of God' is more romantic than anything). I believe this concept was first brought up by either Kierkegaard or Sartre (forgive my spelling). So now we have this world that was given to us by this great debtor, which has died.


Just because man thinks god is dead in the event of technology doesn't mean he/she/it is actually dead. As you stated thats only an idea



Who do we give it back to? How can we repay this debt? Easy, we take earth and make it man-made. We implore technology in every facet of our society and environment. We remove the natural element (the Godly/Holy element) and replace it with our own created devices.


I'm pretty sure technology is what messed us up so bad in the first place. Example: Guns, Nuclear bombs, Cars.



Just look at the technological, industrial, and computer revolution for evidence of this. Now what has been given to us by God is no longer of his hands, but of our own. It is artificial and acceptable by man.


Again, im not disagreeing with your concepts here, I am a big fan of peaceful technology (have a look at my name and logo for example). Isn't this just bypassing the age old question though? artificial yes but we aren't - that doesn't leave me much answers to work with.



It is well known that the 'Big Three' believe man was created in the image of God. It is also believed by many that God is the essence of perfection. God is true, good, righteous...perfect. Here the paradox has already surfaced. If we are created in the likeness of God, then every human has failed in life. We are created to be 'God-like', yet we do profane things throughout our lives. Profane of course being anything that is not completely righteous and god-like. To put it simply, we have screwed up since our conception (Remember a little couple called Adam and Eve?). Man has been chasing this god-like ideology throughout our history. Yet we all fall short. This has created an 'unobtainable paradox'.


Well, yes but I believe the paradox was inherited from a long line of greed, corruption etc. Besides that I agree, we have messed up and are rooted with evil.



However, this paradox would not exist if we accept the fact that Man made god in his image. Weak, ignorant and greedy (yet we could be great at the same time). If we would accept that God was manufactured by man out of ignorance and fear, then would break these religious barriers that have held us back for centuries.


I can't accept God was manufactured by man based on the evidence you have presented.

I like your way of thinking though



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by Derek Trance

2. Number 2 may be touchy, but hey...what are forums for.
As my equal. Do not expect anything but to be my equal as a man.
You cannot have the right to vote, the right to work and the right to do whatever you want as my equal and then expect a man to take 100% care of you by buying the house, paying the bills and doing all the "man" stuff.
(I.E. your money is your money and my money is "our" money")






"So long as by your laws no man can make a contract for a horse or piece of land until he is twenty-one years of age, and by which contract he is not bound if any deception has been practiced, or if the party contracting has not fulfilled his part of the agreement -- so long as the parties in all mere civil contracts retain their identity and all the power and independence they had before contracting, with the full right to dissolve all partnerships and contracts for any reason, at the will and option of the parties themselves, upon what principle of civil jurisprudence do you permit the boy of fourteen and the girl of twelve, in violation of every natural law, to make a contract more momentous in importance than any other, and then hold them to it, come what may, the whole of their natural lives, in spite of disappointment, deception and misery? Then, too, the signing of this contract is instant civil death to one of the parties. The woman who but yesterday was sued on bended knee, who stood so high in the scale of being as to make an agreement on equal terms with a proud Saxon man, to-day has no civil existence, no social freedom. The wife who inherits no property holds about the same legal position that does the slave on the southern plantation. She can own nothing, sell nothing. She has no right even to the wages she earns; her person, her time, her services are the property of another. She cannot testify, in many cases, against her husband. She can get no redress for wrongs in her own name in any court of justice. She can neither sue nor be sued. She is not held morally responsible for any crime committed in the presence of her husband, so completely is her very existence supposed by the law to be merged in that of another. Think of it; your wives may be thieves, libelers, burglars, incendiaries, and for crimes like these they are not held amenable to the laws of the land, if they but commit them in your dread presence. For them, alas! there is no higher law than the will of man."

Address to the Legislature of New York
by Elizabeth Cady Stanton
1854

www.edchange.org...


Well, ya know what they say....what's good for the goose, is good for the gander........
Actuallly, while I was working....I was paying over half my paychecks for the priviledge of cleaning my "husband's house", at least in his heart it was his......and then was griped at for "wasting his money" when I spent some of that paycheck I earned buying some beading supplies...which I could have turned around and sold for more money...but, since it's was his money, I wasn't gonna knock myself out. So I think that gripe can go both ways.....although, apparently, back in the 1800's in could only go one way....

When the fundies talk about the "tradtional family" being preserved by our government....they are talking about that one-sidedness also. Not just the gay issue.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by Simulacra
Ok people, before you go into 'auto-reply-debunk' mode, take a deep breath. Good? Ok, let's go...

As you can tell from the title of this post I believe that religion no longer has a place in society. The overall concept of religion is simply impossible for any person. When I say 'religion', I'm referring to the 'Big Three' (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). There are actually two reasons why religion can no longer work. The first one being an impossible exchange as stated years ago by Jean Baudrillard. The second reason roots out of an 'unobtainable paradox'.

Reason #1: Impossible Exchange

The rooted belief held by most Christians, Jews, and Muslims is that the world, earth was given to us by God. So it is this debt that we owe back to God. In other words, since God has given this earth to us, we must somehow return the favour by giving it back to him. God is our divine debtor; he has given us something that we can no longer pay back. So with recent post-modern trends, there has been the classical 'Death of God'. The idea that God is dead, we as people must fiend for ourselves (I guess the concept of the 'death of God' is more romantic than anything). I believe this concept was first brought up by either Kierkegaard or Sartre (forgive my spelling). So now we have this world that was given to us by this great debtor, which has died. Who do we give it back to? How can we repay this debt? Easy, we take earth and make it man-made. We implore technology in every facet of our society and environment. We remove the natural element (the Godly/Holy element) and replace it with our own created devices. Just look at the technological, industrial, and computer revolution for evidence of this. Now what has been given to us by God is no longer of his hands, but of our own. It is artificial and acceptable by man.


It's not an 'impossible' exchange. Try exchanging (praying).


Originally posted by Simulacra
Reason #2: Unobtainable Paradox

It is well known that the 'Big Three' believe man was created in the image of God. It is also believed by many that God is the essence of perfection. God is true, good, righteous...perfect. Here the paradox has already surfaced. If we are created in the likeness of God, then every human has failed in life. We are created to be 'God-like', yet we do profane things throughout our lives. Profane of course being anything that is not completely righteous and god-like. To put it simply, we have screwed up since our conception (Remember a little couple called Adam and Eve?). Man has been chasing this god-like ideology throughout our history. Yet we all fall short. This has created an 'unobtainable paradox'.

However, this paradox would not exist if we accept the fact that Man made god in his image. Weak, ignorant and greedy (yet we could be great at the same time). If we would accept that God was manufactured by man out of ignorance and fear, then would break these religious barriers that have held us back for centuries.

We could all do what religion has never done for the human race.

Unite us as a people


Ah, that's just it. We're a flawed image. God, the originator is the flawless one. Ever scan a high resolution picture at 100 DPI then blew it up to life size?

What has religion 'cost' you anyway?



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 03:59 PM
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isn't religion always the reason behind fighting between different peoples? let's look at the crusades, a religious war. now, in iraq, religion is the predominate reasoning behind a lot of stuff that's going on over there. "allah told us to...." or "god made me do it" type of stuff. it's all getting out of hand. i think it's time people wake up and realize that they and only they are the ones who decide what to do in different situations. religion is mostly a comfort, something for people on earth to look forward to for the afterlife. if religion didn't exist, it could quite possibly be anarchy. everyone wondering how we got here, what happens when it's over, etc. let's just live life as it is and quit thinking so much into religion being the center of everything.



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 04:01 PM
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE!!! John 3:16

Now wheres the FAILURE in that ???

[edit on 28-10-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]



posted on Oct, 28 2004 @ 06:36 PM
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Here is a question for all you religion supporters out there:

Why God made us?






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